3DJutsu Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 Ok, so my FLGS keeps calling me a traitor, and of the worst sort, simply because I play DA. Which is cool, I'll just keep stomping most of them and dragging them off to our 'happy fun place' on the Rock. d-(^_~)z But a bit of conversation arose where we seem to be in conflict with. Apparently they believe that Cypher is in fact, the Lion himself. When I mentioned that the Primarch was in a section of the Rock being watched over by the Watchers in the Dark that is inaccessible by all save the Watchers. Thats when they said that they open that part of the Rock and found nothing. I am thoroughly convinced that they meant Luthors chamber at first, but something was mentioned about an older codex. Anyone have any idea what they're talking about? To re-iterate the points: Cypher is the Lion The Dark Angels opened the supposed chamber where the Lion lay, despite our codex saying they couldn't reach it, and found it empty. I thought that only Azrael knew about Luthors chamber but they said 'THEY checked the chamber and it was empty" They the DA or they as a general term? If it's a difference between codex editions then I can accept it, GW has a knack for re-writing history here and there, which is fine, it's their world after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 The Lion, according to the codex, is alive, asleep and hidden somewhere in an inaccessible place in the Rock being watched by the WitD. Luther is in another cell where only the big boys get in. He's in stasis. Until this day noone got him to talk clearly or make him admit that he is a traitor. He just keepa mumbling that the Lion will return soon and absolve him of his sins (as if...). I think he also serves as an Oracle instrumental in finding fallen ones. As for Cypher, I am still reading the Dataslate but I am very sure that he is a third persona with an unknown agenda and a damn good shot with his BS10 and overwatch at full ballistic skill.. gotta model me a Clint Eastwood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyfax Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 I haven't read the new Cypher stuff/dataslate yet, but in the 6th edition it states that the Lion is still in that chamber in the centre of the rock and that no one except the emperor (and the watchers) knows that he's actually in there. As far as Cypher goes, in the fluff there seem to be some rumours caused by the sword (supposedly the Lion sword) that he carries, that he is the Lion but that's about it. Other than that the DA have supposedly captured Cypher a few times but every time they went to check up on him in his cell he was gone again. Perhaps they are mixing that up? And I haven't seen anything about Luther having escaped either, and indeed only Azrael should know about him (with the key to the cell being his sword). I'm no long time veteran as far as fluff goes however, so could be different in an older codex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisuzume Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 That's so easy to refute that its almost laugable. Cypher has black hair, the Lion is blonde. And hair dye seems to be quite exotic as well. a third persona with an unknown agenda and a damn good shot with his BS10 and overwatch at full ballistic skill.. gotta model me a Clint Eastwood.I'd prefer to go with a japanese schoolgirl if you don't mind. Although that would be hard to explain... Back to the fluff, I don't seem to remember there being any article of whatnot stating that they ever actually found the room with the Lion in it, let alone opened it. Our fluff has been pretty consistent in it, so if it has changed, it would've been with those digibooks on the Black Library. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DJutsu Posted December 25, 2013 Author Share Posted December 25, 2013 Thats what I kept trying to tell them. I'm a veteran Dark Angel of almost 10years, you'd think I know more about my own lore than non-Dark Angels. So what I'll be bringing up this Saturday is that they are wrong and can suck it, but in nicer terms of course. I almost had to point out in the codex where it says the Lion can't be reached and that Luthors chamber can only be opened by Azrael's sword, but I decided to drop it and get back to stomping face in the game I was playing. d-(^_^)z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 Well Cypher in the preheresy era is a title as well a person. So theres also the chance that this tradition is carried on and the cypher of 40k is one of many, a la green lantern. As for people calling you a traitor, that comes with the territory of playing DA. I tell them they are all jealous because none of their primarchs/leaders had hair as good as the Lion! Edit: to my knowledge he's also the only Primarch who is accounted for and fully healed, albeit asleep. So haters gonna hate!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 Look, you don't have to wrestle for DA honour. You know the truth and what is written in the Codex and in other sources. You don't have to go and feel like DA advocate and disprove crazy DA theories. Relax and be glad you know what is the truth... let them keep their wrong and crazy theories.. the knowledge is there, they can either embrace it or keep being the town lunatic preaching the end of the world. As the Lion once said: Loyalty is it's own reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 Well Cypher in the preheresy era is a title as well a person. So theres also the chance that this tradition is carried on and the cypher of 40k is one of many, a la green lantern. As for people calling you a traitor, that comes with the territory of playing DA. I tell them they are all jealous because none of their primarchs/leaders had hair as good as the Lion! Edit: to my knowledge he's also the only Primarch who is accounted for and fully healed, albeit asleep. So haters gonna hate!! Sanguinius begs to differ. If you can call that hair anyway. I prefer Russ :D But that's true, the only loyalist Primarch being confirmed to be alive by official sources. But if Lion indeed was a loyalist or that whole thing during the heresy.. but that's another topic for another time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DJutsu Posted December 25, 2013 Author Share Posted December 25, 2013 Look, you don't have to wrestle for DA honour. You know the truth and what is written in the Codex and in other sources. You don't have to go and feel like DA advocate and disprove crazy DA theories. Relax and be glad you know what is the truth... let them keep their wrong and crazy theories.. the knowledge is there, they can either embrace it or keep being the town lunatic preaching the end of the world. As the Lion once said: Loyalty is it's own reward. Which brings me to another point, they keep saying that Cypher is the only true loyal Dark Angel because the Lion was waiting to take sides in a fight to see who would come out on top. Now, given the Lions temper and fervent loyalty to the Emperor, I'd say that's pretty suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 Look, you don't have to wrestle for DA honour. You know the truth and what is written in the Codex and in other sources. You don't have to go and feel like DA advocate and disprove crazy DA theories. Relax and be glad you know what is the truth... let them keep their wrong and crazy theories.. the knowledge is there, they can either embrace it or keep being the town lunatic preaching the end of the world. As the Lion once said: Loyalty is it's own reward. Which brings me to another point, they keep saying that Cypher is the only true loyal Dark Angel because the Lion was waiting to take sides in a fight to see who would come out on top. Now, given the Lions temper and fervent loyalty to the Emperor, I'd say that's pretty suspect. There's the whole debate going on if Lion was indeed the traitor and the Fallen Angels the loyalists and what not. I presume something to do with the Lion holding back during the Heresy to see who would win? Complicated story. The new Cypher data-slate is saying that he is aiding Chaos, but also the good guys. His motives are a mystery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 In all novels and fluff, there is no hint that the Lion is loyal to no one else but the Emperor. -he even considers Guilliman a menace to his father's Imperium.. plus the Cabal know he can't be swayed to work for that. If that is fence sitting then there are no loyal Primarchs in the 40K universe. And as Cypher, no one knows nothing about him except he has dealings with abbaddon. Not exactly what a true loyal DA would do. I am even able to consider Cypher is still loyal, but he is not the only one. DA's loyalty during the HH cannot be suspected despite their shady post HH dealings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magos Valkamar Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 The one thing that always bugs me is that non-DA players who read Angel of Darkness (or worse, hearing that the "Lion was waiting to see who won" second hand from someone who has read that book) and then go around believing they know more about our chapter than we do, without even ever reading any of the HH books. In fact, I find it pretty suspect that they're so easily swayed by the words of a traitor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 The one thing that always bugs me is that non-DA players who read Angel of Darkness (or worse, hearing that the "Lion was waiting to see who won" second hand from someone who has read that book) and then go around believing they know more about our chapter than we do, without even ever reading any of the HH books. In fact, I find it pretty suspect that they're so easily swayed by the words of a traitor... Well, I think that I am free to express my opinion. If you feel I am wrong, enlighten me and I'll gladly listen. Otherwise, don't be arrogant bro. Relax. Instead of writing that non-DA players are a dumb bunch just tell us the correct stuff and we won't spout wrong opinions next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisuzume Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 Ah, but the problem is that they must be willing to listen to it. Which isn't always the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 I dont think Jack of The Pelt meant any offense, but he does speak some truth. Many people just have the wrong view on AoD book, or they just hear second hand info and make a wrong opinion... and they just tag DA and Lion as traitors and fence sitters without having all the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 Bro, I'd love to hear the truth as a DA fluff master says about that. I like that legion more than you think but the thing holding me back is that traitor thingy, because I dislike evil and prefer to stand with the good guys as opposed to be a fan of shady personalities and dual loyalties. Truth be told, I rarely read DA fluff firsthand because those apparently wrong opinions that led me wrong and created a slight dislike for the Lion. If you can show me that the Lion was a radiant example for good and truth then I'll be all over him like I am all over Russ. It's not like I am unreasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varizel Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 Bro, I'd love to hear the truth as a DA fluff master says about that. I like that legion more than you think but the thing holding me back is that traitor thingy, because I dislike evil and prefer to stand with the good guys as opposed to be a fan of shady personalities and dual loyalties. Truth be told, I never read DA fluff because those apparently wrong opinions that led me wrong and created a slight dislike for the Lion. If you can show me that the Lion was a radiant example for good and truth then I'll be all over him like I am all over Russ. It's not like I am unreasonable. To answer your questions. Lion might not be a RADIANT example for good and truth. But he is no traitor. All the HH novels so far that has a showing of Lion disapproves the notion that Astellan uttered on AoD. Not only that, but the sequel for AoD, Ravenwing, completely proofs that Astellan is lying through his teeth. So the whole notion of the fence sitting, just don't hold true anymore. Same with the noble, loyal Fallen..... Traitors all to me , BUT some of them forced/lured to be traitorous scum, and as always, benevolent beings that Dark Angels are, We gave them a second chance to recant their false allegiance and come back to the guiding light that is the Lion's and the Emperor's. Peace out and Merry Xmas. PS: I don't know about you guys, but i really really hate the impact that AoD has on the DA fluff in general outside of codex. It seems all our book on HH or the trilogy are dedicated to fixing the mess that G. Thorpe did with that one line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 To each it's own. What makes the Lion an awesome primarch to me might not make it to you. I have an admiration for Dorn, Russ, Corax, Vulkan, Ferrus, Magnus, Alpharius and Omegon, but to me the Lion is my archetype of a downright righteous persona. Like I wrote before, he cares nothing but about his own father and goes out of his way to ensure no one steals what is rightfully his father's , even if that means he has to fight his brothers. He knows it's a dirty job and that someone has to do it, even if it blemishes his reputation.. still he doesn't care and does what he has to do. So there's this guy that is raised aone in a deathworld, betayed by his best friend and puts his genetic father above all else. Sure that the Lion isn't the radiant example for good and truth, but who is? In the end it's take it or leave... just don't be offended if people try to shed some light in what usually is a murky water... No on is trying to be righteous or arrogant... just trying to dot the i's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 Nah, that's cool bro. I like to read what you put there. Radiant example of good and truth might be an overstatement. What I meant to say was that I admire someone who stays true to what they believe and holds his ground against the encroaching darkness. You know, good guys. Good guy Greg. On that note, I will try to get my hands on the Legacy of Caliban Novels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 Sadly Gav Thorpe is probably one of the more underwhelming writers BL has, compared to the heresy BL stuff, I've found all of Thorpe's novels to be pretty lukeworm, I thought AoD was ok until I started reading everything else, it honestly reads like an elementary school novel at times. Unremembered Empire features the Lion during the heresy and even Guilliman, posterboy of loyalist primarchs is in awe of the Lion's majesty and grace. He is still suspicious of all his secrets, but he accepts that he's as loyal as can be. Fallen Angels and Angels of Darkness are pretty much at odds with each other as far as the schism/lion/luther. Also, the claim that Lion is the traitor is coming from a traitor. So take that as you will. Fallen Angels is pretty clear on who the traitor of the Dark Angels are. All in all, the skepticism of fellow hobbyists and DA players actually falls in line with the DA feel if you ask me, in a way I kind of like it. I don't need to answer to them!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 . What I meant to say was that I admire someone who stays true to what they believe and holds his ground against the encroaching darkness. You know, good guys. Good guy Greg. Is there actually "good guys" in the 41st millennium? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 I had this discussion a while back with someone absolutely convinced that this was the truth, and in fact it comes up more than once. These are the points you need to know: 1) people are bigoted and won't listen - in fact look at the BnC, we have some seriously closed minded people when it comes to our beloved Legion. Therefore, if they keep being stupid over it, then no matter how much you explain they won't get it. 2) Cypher is not the Lion. I used to have an essay saved (somewhere) on why, but suffice to say the new codex is all the proof you need, plus theres nothing about opening up the Rock anywhere that I have heard/read. Basically, that little argument is BS, and not Ballistic Skill ;) 3) Jonson did not sit on the sidelines, Savage Weapons, Unremembered Empire and 'The Lion' in The Primarchs prove this and provide evidence to back the point. The point raised in Angels of Darkness rests on two sections, the first being Astelans testimony. He is unreliable as he is a traitor, jealous of the Lion and an all round idiot. The second is Boreas saying 'tell him he is right'. Ravenwing proves that Boreas' statement is not actually about the Lion's loyalty. It is about the future of the Chapter, and he is not necessarily accurate either being corrupted by his experiences. So basically, theres tons of evidence to support your view which is accurate and not a lot to support any other view. So stick to your guns and beat them up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magos Valkamar Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 The one thing that always bugs me is that non-DA players who read Angel of Darkness (or worse, hearing that the "Lion was waiting to see who won" second hand from someone who has read that book) and then go around believing they know more about our chapter than we do, without even ever reading any of the HH books. In fact, I find it pretty suspect that they're so easily swayed by the words of a traitor... Well, I think that I am free to express my opinion. If you feel I am wrong, enlighten me and I'll gladly listen. Otherwise, don't be arrogant bro. Relax. Instead of writing that non-DA players are a dumb bunch just tell us the correct stuff and we won't spout wrong opinions next time. That wasn't actually directed at you, but at the people who are lazy with the fluff, and repeat the same old line ad nauseam as if saying it enough times will make it come true. It's just something that bugs me a lot. Enjoying a theory is completely different thing, and I apologise if I caused you any offence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasper_Hawser Posted December 26, 2013 Share Posted December 26, 2013 Whatever the faults of the Lion are, I'm still pretty touched by the story that like the Emperor, he could have killed Luther from the get go, but instead hesitated and allowed Luther to deal him a near-fatal blow. And that Luther himself actually came to his senses (or lost more of it depending on your point of view) in the end and couldn't bring himself to kill the Lion DESPITE all of the wrongs he perceived the Lion committing. Shows that no matter how vilified either of them are, in the end they're both human, yes, even the primarch Lion. Sigh, personally I would love to own and play a Dark Angels army, but I just can't bring myself to play an army that is willing to kill its own allies to keep a secret. I understand perfectly well WHY they must do so, if the Inquisition even got a hint of proof of what really happened at the Fall of Caliban, the entire chapter and its successors would be suspected tainted by chaos, so they HAVE to kill all witneses, whether brother astartes, imperial guard or planetary populations that were touched by the scattered Fallen Angels. For my part, I've created a personal fan fiction where Cypher and at least 200 of the Fallen Angels are in fact traitors who followed Luther on Caliban but later came to regret their actions. Thus they themselves also consider themselves Unforgiven and Fallen, striving to aid the Imperium however they can but tragically, whatever good they try to do is undone by the Dark Angels finding out and chasing them across the cosmos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted December 26, 2013 Share Posted December 26, 2013 Ok, so my FLGS keeps calling me a traitor, and... To put it bluntly, your FLGS people are imbeciles. I'll only address one of their errors though. As Cypher is running amok, while the Lion is in a particular place, they are NOT the same person. That probably isn't good enough reasoning for these geniuses though, so let's go to the really obvious determinant that you can just shove in their faces. This determinant would be that even your slack-jawed, slope-browed, mouth-breathing FLGS folks will maybe, just maybe, have noticed that Cypher is a NORMAL-sized Space Marine, not a GIANT Primarch (which all of the Primarchs were, excepting Alpharius and Omegon who were the smallest, and Lorgar who was only slightly smaller than the others), so they are obviously NOT the same person. [EDIT] Okay, I guess I should cut them some slack. Some confusion is probably warranted, as Cypher and The Lion would look extremely similar; kind of like this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/oxrajbp8b0lox49/dey_iz_da_samerz.jpg I know! The resemblance is uncanny, isn't it. And so some confusion is perfectly understandable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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