Question on Cypher, Luther, and the Lion.

[Master Avoghai]

Actually, after reading the Cypher's eBook story, I can definitely say that Cypher is not the Lion (as well as DA not being traitors)...

 

It is even more interesting the part explaining the origin of the title Cypher and why he should bear him... It also gives a potent acceptable reason of his armour being dark green...

[Kasper_Hawser]

Huh? I thought Cypher wore black armour in Pre-Heresy colours to tie him to the old legion.

[Frater Cornelius]

Okay, I guess I should cut them some slack. Some confusion is probably warranted, as Cyher and The Lion would look extremely similar; kind of like this:

 

 

 

https://www.dropbox....z_da_samerz.jpg

 

 

 

I know! The resemblance is uncanny, isn't it. And so some confusion is perfectly understandable. biggrin.png

 

Chapeau, good sir. That was brilliant. Had me laughing out loud.

[Master Avoghai]

Huh? I thought Cypher wore black armour in Pre-Heresy colours to tie him to the old legion.

Indeed... But the fluff inside the data slate did give a reason why the armour is dark green and the explanation sounds... Interesting

 

 

 

Basically the Cypher within the Order was the officer responsible of the respect of the tradition and the orthodoxy of the ceremonies.

 

When Luther started to leave the light of the Emperor, not all the DA on Caliban followed him and started to organize a resistance. Some say that they chose to give the title of cypher to their leader in rememberance of the one who used to maintain the fidelity to the traditions.

They also decided to paint their armour in green to indentify them.

 

[Memento Of Prospero]

I always poke fun at other legions for having a less than perfect primarch (sorry non Blood Angels!), but I still remain as objective as can be when regarding them.

 

I am currently reading Reading all of HH. I've been in the hobby a long time, and have had the chance to read just about every peice of fluff from official sources.

 

It is very clear to me that the scope given on the Dark Angels in unclear. This is done intentionally. A great story and background is one that spawns endless debate.

 

The Lion is the embodiment of cold calculating logic. Unlike Guilliman or Dorn, he is not bound by a code of honour. The Lion will follow the rules as long as they suit his needs.

 

Many of his actions can be INTERPRETED in many ways, but one thing is certain: He broke the Edict of Nikaea which the Emperor himself declared all who broke it his enemies. Guilliman faced the same problem at Calth and did not do it. Corax did not. Magnus did and paid the price.

 

Why did he do this? Because it no longer suited his needs. Regardless of what you think of the necessity of the moment - this makes him a traitor in the eyes of his father.

 

So the status of the Dark Angels depends on your views of what degree of loyalty is required to be considered a loyalist legion.

 

Also, turning a blind eye to a problem you know exists makes you equally responsible to the concequenses of the problem. He knew something was wrong with Luther and dodged the issue until it was too late.

[Aegnor]

Except Guilliman did then reinstate Librarians. And set up Imperium Secundus (all with the best of intentions). Why does he get a pass on that but not the Lion, using that logic you suggest?

 

And in the story The Lion, it is made explicit that the Lion felt there was another priority that was more important than going back and confronting Luther. It's unspoken what that priority was, but it seems likely that he had some plan to protect the Emperor that he felt only he could do, and that he was prepared to sacrifice half his Legion and his homeworld to do that duty. We can't say that he was wrong because we don't know exactly what would have happened had he chosen differently.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

In HH novels there are several other Loyalist Legion with Librarians, even after Nikea... Not to mention the SW that dodge the issue by shamanizing their Librarians. Traitors all, then?

[facmanpob]

Not to mention the Scars, who barely acknowledged the Edict, before ignoring it completely... The Lion followed it for the better part of a decade, until a point that would have meant his destruction had he not broken it. He did what every good battlefield commander does - follow orders until they make no sense, then use your own authority to amend them.

[Onisuzume]

Sigh, personally I would love to own and play a Dark Angels army, but I just can't bring myself to play an army that is willing to kill its own allies to keep a secret. I understand perfectly well WHY they must do so, if the Inquisition even got a hint of proof of what really happened at the Fall of Caliban, the entire chapter and its successors would be suspected tainted by chaos, so they HAVE to kill all witneses, whether brother astartes, imperial guard or planetary populations that were touched by the scattered Fallen Angels.

Well, given that the Inquisition wanted to more or less execute the entire population of Armageddon after the first war (vs. Angron), and that only the Space wolves' threat of outright war with the Inquisition/Grey Knights caused them to back down, I'd say that they do have reason for concern.

Okay, I guess I should cut them some slack. Some confusion is probably warranted, as Cypher and The Lion would look extremely similar; kind of like this:

Erm... hair colour anyone?

Cypher had black/brown hair, iirc, while the Lion was clearly blonde.

[Memento Of Prospero]

In HH novels there are several other Loyalist Legion with Librarians, even after Nikea... Not to mention the SW that dodge the issue by shamanizing their Librarians. Traitors all, then?

We are discussing the Dark Angels here. The Lion does not know this to be a fact, and I have yet to read about another loyaliat legion using librarians post Nikeae barring Magnus's thousand sons.( I am finishing Primarchs, it may be the case afterwards in the series)

 

Even if it is the case, it does not excuse the fact that he broke the edict and murdered the representative who was inforcing it.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Sure we are discussing DA, but you are labeling them as traitors for disobeying. Im just saying that if one labels DA as traitors he soon have to label some others as well. Just wanting to put some grey on your black and white.

[Memento Of Prospero]

The problem is that Loyalty to the Emperor is black or white. The Custodes would have executed Corax had there not be a "devine" intervention of the Emperor for the spyker lock. They tried to kill Lorgar when he attended the heathen ritual. The Emperor is not a reasonable figure when it comes to loyalty.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I think you're talking apples and I'm talking oranges. The Lion is loyal to his father even if he disobeys his fathers rules. He does this even knowing he could be damned in his fathers eyes. So his loyal to his father's image, not to his father's rule... he disboeys rules toprotect him. In the eyes of the Emperor, he and others that care not for Nikea can be labelled as traitors, but for the History records, they remain loyal to his father despite disobedience. 

So my take on this is: I stand by the primarchs that protected their Father against his own will... that's loyalty and love right there. just IMHO.

[Varizel]

aww c'mon. Guilliman reinstated the Librarius before he declared Imperium Secundus. Mind ya, that was after Calth. As a matter of fact, one of the character in Unremembered Empires (which is after Know No Fear, Betrayal, and Mark of Calth... and DEFINITELY AFTER the Edict of Nikea) is an Ultramarine Librarian under sanction by Guilliman . Guilliman even asked said librarian to 

 

 

scan the Lion's mind during the party to see if the Lion can be trusted.

 

 

Let's not forget Space Wolves and their Rune Priest? There is at least one that was fighting on Prospero.

and totally got his ass kicked to kingdom come by Ahriman.

 

 

That was AFTER Nikea's edict too?

 

How about the Stormseer on Scars?

Guy even claimed that no matter what the Emperor said, if Khan said there still libby, tough luck for the big E. That was after Nikea's edict too, since the guy was actually

one of the attendants on Nikea under order from Khan, since Khan can't be bothered to show up.

 

 

Hell... i don't remember anything about the Blood Angels. Mayhaps there is a libby there too. No.... i'm pretty darn sure there is a libby there after Nikea.

 

 

 

Wasn't a coven of librarians the one that saved Sangy's sorry butt after he went comatose? Not only that, wasn't one of the librarian managed to get a glimpse of the future that might happen to Sangy?

 

 

 

Heck.... even Iron Hands got their libby too back in service after the massacre?

 

 

check it out on Vulkan Lives. One of the marine character is an Iron Hand librarian.

 

 

 

I guess all of them are traitors now. Poor Emperor.... all his sons are traitorous scums.

[Memento Of Prospero]

I agree with you, from a "human" stand point. But the values of th Emperor are set. His word his law. He sent Russ after Magnus to bring him back in chains after Magnus broke the edict in good spirit, to save his father. Lorgar nearly did not get a second chance. His brothers had to vouch for him. Who knows what really happened with the other 2 purged primarchs and the reasons why they were?

 

Time and time again we see the Emperor unleash his wrath oncenhis patience runs out.

 

I enjoy these conversations ;)

[Frater Cornelius]

Faith is never Black and White. Neither is loyalty. It is not like Big E would've killed 'em all. Punish? Sure. But kill? No. Hell, he couldn't bring himself to kill Horus and that guy was more traitor than all the rest put together. Horus begged for forgiveness during that final moment and the Emperor had to push away his endless compassion to Ctrl+Shift+Delete him.

 

Also, look at 'todays' Imperium of Man. Erm, better don't because in the end, the only ones truly loyal are amongst the SM and of cause the Custodes. All those other worshiping dudes are... less so, for many reasons over.

[Brother dean]

Also to counterpoint.  Russ's orders from E were to bring Magnus to Terra for sanction..  Horus "tweaked" the orders and Russ into doing what Horus wanted.

 

Who ordered the "hit" on Lorgar?  Custodians?

 

Who is threatening to stand in judgement of the Dark Angels?  The =I=?

 

Time and again throughout human history we see base humans trying to twist what "gods" say to fit their own ends...  Nemial,  Warden Annellus from "Fear to Tread"?  Anytime I see any person saying "THIS IS WHAT GOD SAID" I immediately question their reasoning and interpretation because even the scriptures say that we should question those saying things like that.

[Bryan Blaire]

Time and time again we see the Emperor unleash his wrath oncenhis patience runs out.

So the Lion is much like the Emperor, while Sanguinus is a mutated whack ado with a mutant gene-line that makes his sons able to be easily tempted by Khorne, who got slapped down so hard that he psyker-cursed his gene sons for all eternity, except for the one Librarian who has turned into a demon prince.

 

So we can see from this that Sanguinus is definitely a traitor from all this circumstantial evidence about him. As are all the other Loyalist Primarchs, like Guilliman.

 

I like these discussions too.

[Brother dean]

 

Time and time again we see the Emperor unleash his wrath oncenhis patience runs out.

So the Lion is much like the Emperor, while Sanguinus is a mutated whack ado with a mutant gene-line that makes his sons able to be easily tempted by Khorne who got slapped down so hard that he psyker-cursed his gene sons for all eternity, except for the one Librarian who has turned into a demon prince.

 

So we can see from this that Sanguinus is definitely a traitor from all this circumstantial evidence about him. As are all the other Loyalist Primarchs, like Guilliman.

 

I like these discussions too.

I believe that is an apothicary not a librarian into a DP...  Unless I have missed another book...

[Bryan Blaire]

I believe that is an apothicary not a librarian into a DP...  Unless I have missed another book...

It was a cheeky jab at Mephiston and the fact that when M'Kar captures him, he states that Mephiston is already well on his way to demon-hood.

 

None of the Legions or their blood lines are completely clean of complications or traitorous doings.

[Phoebus]

It is very clear to me that the scope given on the Dark Angels in unclear. This is done intentionally. A great story and background is one that spawns endless debate.

Was unclear. Only the most hardbitten critics of the Dark Angels (and those with an uncompromising sense of humor) maintained the picture wasn't cleared up after Fallen Angels. After "Savage Weapons", "The Lion" and The Unremembered Empire, though, there's no question which way the Dark Angels' loyalties lie.

The Lion is the embodiment of cold calculating logic. Unlike Guilliman or Dorn, he is not bound by a code of honour. The Lion will follow the rules as long as they suit his needs.

That's not an accurate representation of the man. Your take implies a self-serving basis for the decision to not follow the rules. In fact, said decision has always been made for a larger good. Per the other thread, there's no point in "fighting honorably" against an opponent who is demonstrably dishonorable, sadistic, and treacherous. The Lion wasn't cheating Curze at cards for personal profit; he was seeking to end the life of a cold-blooded murderer whose Legion was responsible for some of the most horrific crimes committed against humanity. Similarly, there was no profit or personal gain to be found in reinstating the Librarius. It was a tactical decision, pure and simple. What you're doing is taking obedience to the illogical extreme: to the point where you obey your master so completely that you are no longer able to serve him properly.

Many of his actions can be INTERPRETED in many ways, but one thing is certain: He broke the Edict of Nikaea which the Emperor himself declared all who broke it his enemies. Guilliman faced the same problem at Calth and did not do it. Corax did not. Magnus did and paid the price.

Your comparisons don't take context into account. Guilliman's battle was planetary in scope, and he didn't have control over it for the majority of its duration. You're assuming a choice was made when there was none available to Guilliman.

By contrast, the Lion's battle was an affair in which he was able to make informed decisions. He had real-time control over his forces. You're upset that the Lion decided that it was unacceptable to lose his flagship to creatures that couldn't be hurt by conventional weapons. What you should be upset about is that Gav Thorpe didn't take into account (for one reason or another) Know No Fear (which preceded "The Lion"). Per Abnett, Guilliman and the Ultramarines discovered that, while most ranged weapons are ineffective, melee weapons - and powered ones, especially - could affect their supernatural opponents. Per Thorpe, though, no weapons in the Dark Angels arsenal worked.

Thus, you're really comparing apples to oranges... and on two different levels, at that.

Why did he do this? Because it no longer suited his needs. Regardless of what you think of the necessity of the moment - this makes him a traitor in the eyes of his father.

So the status of the Dark Angels depends on your views of what degree of loyalty is required to be considered a loyalist legion.

That's a combination of pure conjecture on your part along with highly selective criteria.

Where the former is concerned, you're assuming you know what the Emperor is thinking. You ignore, however, the fact that the Emperor didn't call the Council of Nikaea of his own volition. He did so because a minority of his sons requested him to, and he delivered a conservative vote when the council came to a deadlock. And even then, his vote was to appease a reactionary element within the primarchs at a time when Librarians did not appear to be needed. It's disingenuous, frankly, to assume that the Emperor would have maintained the same train of thought in the middle of a rebellion defined by the supernatural and the psychic, of which one of the chief rebels was the most vocal proponent for the abolition of Librarians!

Furthermore, this idea flies in the face of the fact that the Emperor not only didn't punish Malcador when he began recruiting psykers for his "Knights Errant"; he granted his own genetic material for the creation of a Chapter made up entirely of psykers. If that's not evidence that the Emperor's intent on the subject had changed, I don't know what is.

Where your counter-argument is concerned, that the Lion could not have known those things, see above. Obeying the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law never served any master well.

And where the latter is concerned, nothing needs to be said besides the fact that you seize on highly dubious examples of "disloyalty" while ignoring the overwhelming body of evidence: that the Lion and the Dark Angels actively fought against declared rebels, and were prepared to fight against those who claimed to be loyal but appeared to be ready to form their own empire. You can't possibly read the ending of "The Lion" or go through The Unremembered Empire and seriously claim that there is a "loyalty issue" anymore.

Again, I'm not trying to be rude, but that's why I joked about you trying to troll me earlier/in another thread. It's just not a serious argument, man. I'm only responding because I was up to watch a late-night football game and I need something to occupy my time until I pass out. The last thing I want, though, is for those who haven't read the Heresy stories to take you at your word.

Also, turning a blind eye to a problem you know exists makes you equally responsible to the concequenses of the problem. He knew something was wrong with Luther and dodged the issue until it was too late.

Nah. That's just assumption rearing her ugly head again.

Up until the end of Fallen Angels, the Lion has no reason to assume Luther didn't accept his punishment. Everything we saw at the end of Descent of Angels and the beginning of its sequel was that Luther was remorseful and torn over what he almost did. The performance of his duties at Caliban was almost flawless until the taint began tearing the planet apart again. He provided optimal numbers of men and materiel to the Legion.

It's not until "Savage Weapons" that we get a hint that the Lion might know something is amiss with Luther. It's not the ending of "The Lion" when we find out he acknowledges events on Caliban. Nothing about that story suggests he "dodged" anything. Seriously, read it: he simply prioritizes the survival of the Imperium and the continuation of the Emperor's rule over the fate of his own legion.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Sigh, I think we all better give it a rest until the HH novels actually come to the point of Caliban's destruction, if it ever gets there. Bear in mind, I don't think Black Library will EVER clear any ambiguity up, if anything, they will add more. That's the point of the Dark Angels after all: being angst ridden to the end of the Imperium's time.

 

My personal opinion is that even if the Lion is ultimately loyal to the Emperor (breaking the Nikea decree notwithstanding), he is still a very odd and cold primarch, instilling a sense of favoritism and secretism that resulted in the Fallen Angels and the secretive nature of the Dark Angels today. In a sense, I find him similar to Perturbo, who while spends most of his time training/leading his legion, doesn't seek to instill a close relationship with them all. You could argue that the Dark Angels number about a 100,000 (just the ones accompanying the Lion to Macragge in Unremembered Empire if I'm not mistaken) and the Lion can't possible connect with all of them, but from all accounts, the Ultramarines numbered almost twice that number pre-Calth and yet all looked dearly to their primarch.

 

Then again, Guillaman's own charisma was legendary, and in his spare time, he does micromanage stuff that could be easily handled by sergeants when he is bored.

 

There are other examples of "cold" primarchs: Kurze hated his own Legion for being recruited from criminals, Angron couldn't care less as well. Somehow I find it strange that both legions were still oddly loyal to their distant primarch. I guess in both cases, the feeling was mutual towards the entire legion so no one felt snubbed by their primarch's coldness.

 

In contrast, the Lion commanded and lead with decisions that seemingly favoured some and belittled the others. The worst thing is that, he probably knew it but didn't care to explain any of his decisions to his sons, hence exacerbating the schism. As long as the decision is right in his eyes, he doesn't care for the opinion of others. In a sense, he is like Russ, caring nothing for the opinion of others except the Emperor.

 

LOL, I find it ironic that the two have that in common. If only the Lion drank more and got into more bar brawls with his legion. Might have saved as the debate we're having now today.

[Phoebus]

Sigh, I think we all better give it a rest until the HH novels actually come to the point of Caliban's destruction, if it ever gets there. Bear in mind, I don't think Black Library will EVER clear any ambiguity up, if anything, they will add more. That's the point of the Dark Angels after all: being angst ridden to the end of the Imperium's time.

There's plenty of ambiguity to be found in these novels. What was the Lion's purpose in appointing a former Knight of Lupus to be the new Lord Cypher? Did the Lion know about the occult rituals the Terran "engineers" were performing on Caliban to entrap the Oroburus daemon? What was Cypher up to during the events of Fallen Angels? Did he point Luther to the occult tomes in the library of his former order? Did the Lion's commands play any part in Cypher's choices where Luther and the rebellion shown in Fallen Angels are concerned?

All valid questions to ask, brother! It's kind of disingenuous, though, to argue that there is ambiguity where the Lion's loyalty is concerned. If you think the Lion might later turn fence-sitter, by all means: raise the argument and provide the evidence you feel supports it. We can all have a good time going back and forth. Where his current loyalties are concerned, though, it couldn't be spelled out more explicitly. For God's sake, some of the quotes written in for the Lion are about as direct a nod* as an author can give to their readers!

* See the Lion's conversation with Curze in "Savage Weapons".

My personal opinion is that even if the Lion is ultimately loyal to the Emperor (breaking the Nikea decree notwithstanding), he is still a very odd and cold primarch, instilling a sense of favoritism and secretism that resulted in the Fallen Angels and the secretive nature of the Dark Angels today. In a sense, I find him similar to Perturbo, who while spends most of his time training/leading his legion, doesn't seek to instill a close relationship with them all. You could argue that the Dark Angels number about a 100,000 (just the ones accompanying the Lion to Macragge in Unremembered Empire if I'm not mistaken) and the Lion can't possible connect with all of them, but from all accounts, the Ultramarines numbered almost twice that number pre-Calth and yet all looked dearly to their primarch.

Oh, he's definitely an odd one, but he's not so much cold by default as he is brusque during tense situations. Reading Descent of Angels, though, he's anything but cold until, you know, people start conspiring to murder him and daemons start murdering his warriors. That carries over to Fallen Angels, largely because he's dealing with, you know, half his brothers going traitor. But you get to see his old self again for a bit in "Savage Weapons", and in The Unremembered Empire he's anything but cold. Confronted by his brother and forced to show his cards, the Lion shows himself to be all-too human in his emotional range. None of this is unusual. Most folks tend to become less friendly and chatty and more mission-focused when thrust into such situations. That seemed to be par for the course on all my military deployments. Battle-buddies who normally joke around tend to shut the [expletive] up and focus when their friends are getting blown up or when they're planning for a mission.

At any rate, the comparison with Perturabo is quite off. The Lion becomes kills one of his subordinates in an extreme moment and shows regret for it. Perturabo is quite vicious with his own men, going so far as to cripple one and intern him in a dreadnought for not winning a battle. Even when he's not violent, though, Perturabo's relationship with his subordinates is quite telling: he never made any friends on Olympia, never got close to his Iron Warriors, and relied on intimidation to get his point across. Compare that with the Lion's easy rapport with young squires on Caliban, or the way he engaged warriors like Corswain and Alajos. It's night and day.

Incidentally, the Lion only brought 20,000 or so Dark Angels to Macragge.

There are other examples of "cold" primarchs: Kurze hated his own Legion for being recruited from criminals, Angron couldn't care less as well. Somehow I find it strange that both legions were still oddly loyal to their distant primarch. I guess in both cases, the feeling was mutual towards the entire legion so no one felt snubbed by their primarch's coldness.

Why does that surprise you? One of the recurring, repeatedly stated themes in the Horus Heresy series is the innate sense of loyalty and belonging Space Marines feel toward their primarch. Where Angron is concerned, this has been spelled out as early as the short story "After Desh'ea". In The First Heretic, we get a perspective that states this loyalty is genetic. No surprise, then!

In contrast, the Lion commanded and lead with decisions that seemingly favoured some and belittled the others. The worst thing is that, he probably knew it but didn't care to explain any of his decisions to his sons, hence exacerbating the schism. As long as the decision is right in his eyes, he doesn't care for the opinion of others. In a sense, he is like Russ, caring nothing for the opinion of others except the Emperor.

Nah, you're projecting Angels of Darkness over the sum total while ignoring all evidence to the contrary. In other words, you're taking Astelan's recollections at face value while ignoring stories that are about as close to the eyewitness perspective as you're going to get.

That is, he only "favored some" if you choose to believe that Astelan is honest about (or, hell, even remembering correctly) the reasons why he got exiled to Caliban. He only "belittled" Luther, who had admitted to him that he almost let the Saroshi murder him out of jealousy. Show me a military that wouldn't have courtmartialed Luther for treason or being an accessory to attempted assassination. Instead, the Lion suppressed knowledge of what his erstwhile best friend and father figure almost did and allowed him to do some good with the rest of his career - which he did, excellently so, until he decided to side with Chaos. I suppose the Lion could have done the "right" thing, had Luther face a tribunal, and then shot him out of an airlock. I mean, that would have only crushed the morale of every Calibanite Dark Angel, every Calibanite old enough to know of Luther, and tainted the second greatest legend of his adopted homeworld forever. Does that sound like a better or worse schism to you?

As far the opinion of others is concerned? I can't see how you read Fallen Angels if you maintain this position. If that was the Lion's mindset, then he never would have trusted a subordinate Dark Angel with making crucial security decisions at a time when he knew Horus had agents everywhere.

Bottom line:

The Lion spend a crucial amount of time alone and in a deadly environment. Nonetheless, he is demonstrably capable of friendship, loyalty, and properly assimilating in a society. That doesn't mean that he's been left unaffected by his early years, though. They did have an effect on his thought process, how he deals with conflict, and the way he interacts with others.

Betrayal has a very adverse effect on him, and as he is increasingly let down by other parties (Luther, Zahariel, Horus, Nemiel), he correspondingly looks more to his own counsel or that of a swiftly shrinking inner circle of friends. Ultimately, he hides his capacity for friendship and comraderie under a pragmatic and calculating outlook. It takes a very strong personality, such as Guiliman, to force him to open up to others and reveal who he is inside. He does not allow his pragmatism or his calculating mindset to interfere with his sense of loyalty, but as the war to unite Humanity turns into a civil war against treacherous brothers that loyalty is reserved for the Emperor and the Emperor alone.

There's your summary of the character based on what we've seen - and not what Astelan claims he heard about while stuck on Caliban half a galaxy away from his primarch.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Strangely enough, I'm very happy at being rebuffed on almost all my points by you Phoebus. Gives me hope that there is a spark of a good guy in the Lion after all, maybe enough to persuade me to start a Dark Angel army.

 

I must admit I'm a bit coloured by Angel of Darkness, which is not only the first Dark Angel novel I read, but the first actual Warhammer 40K novel I read. I know to read it with a salt mine worth of salt, but I thought Astellan words were partly vinidicated by the short story of him being screwed by another younger Chapter master.

 

Oh well, its off to chamber 42 for me then.

[Phoebus]

A quick qualifier:  if it's a matter of wanting to start an army around likeable individuals, then my arguments apply to starting a First Legion Horus Heresy army.  When it comes to the Dark Angels of the 41st millennium, though, we're having a completely different discussion.

 

I don't think the, shall we say, less savory aspects of the Dark Angels have anything to do with Lion El'Jonson.  It's not like he was this master torturer, nor did he place his own goals above those of the Emperor.  There is no record of the Lion abandoning his allies to pursue his own goals.

 

The Dark Angels are the way they are because they made a momentous decision almost ten thousand years ago.  They decided to cover up the truth of Luther's revolt and Caliban's destruction in order to spare their entire Legion - which had hitherto fought honorably and faithfully - from being wiped out by the paranoid and extremist factions that arose in the vacuum left by the Emperor.

 

Since then, the Dark Angels have been like a gambler who keeps desperately raising on the same losing hand.  Every atrocity they commit in the name of the Hunt simply raises the stakes - which they were never able to cover to begin with. By this point, they continue the Hunt and maintain their secrets not just because of what would have happened if they had been found out ten thousand years in the past... but because of every other crime they have committed ever since to keep their original secret!  It's basically compounding interest, when you think about it.  As they've done so, their obsession with the Fallen and ending their shame has risen to fanatical levels.  One of the interesting background tidbits in the Cypher dataslate is the acknowledgment that the Chapter has changed, year by year, and is doing things they probably would never have imagined ten millennia ago.  True, it is implied that there are some within the Inner Circle realize that what they are doing is wrong, but they are absolutely a minority.  Asmodai and Azrael represent the moral compass of those initiated in the Chapter's secrets.  Sammael's brief nags of conscience (as seen in Ravenwing) are about as good as it gets for the majority of the Chapter's elite.

 

Bottom line, what the Lion was in the 31st millennium and what the Dark Angels are in the 41st millennium are two completely different animals.  The Dark Angels are among the foremost of Humanity's champions.  They are stalwart and intractable foes of the Alien, the Heretic, and the Mutant (and, well, the Daemon, too) and have absolutely earned their battle honours and glory - even if they don't like to celebrate who they are.  They are, in my eyes, the anti-Ultramarines:  taciturn, brooding, and austere; feared and respected instead of loved and respected; famed for their deeds, but also surrounded by rumors that inspire notoriety; absolutely fearless in the face of adversity, but also willing to do terrible things to secure victory; willing to die for Mankind in a heartbeat, but - where the Inner Circle is concerned - willing to leave Men to their deaths just as quickly to ensure the honour of the Chapter is secured.

 

That's the kind of army you need to be prepared to identify with.  :)