Infiltrating

[Axagoras]

If I have cypher in my guard army (he counts as a hq choice) can I ifniltrate him and a blob squad? Im hearing that you cant but cant really find anything saying you can.

[Kastor Krieg]

He has Infiltrate. Infiltrate has "units that contain at least one model" wording, so it is conferred from the IC onto the Unit.

Your blob does Infiltrate all right.

[Dam13n]

It depends if he is considered a battle brother ally or not.

 

If he is, he can join the unit thus conferring infiltrate on them.

 

If he is not, he can't join the unit, so can't confer infiltrate on them.

[Venemox]

@ Dam13n

 

Cypher (when taken alone) fits into your Primary Detachment as a non-slot HQ choice.  Better than battle Brother, he can ride along in transports.

 

Edit:  not an non-slot HQ chice, just a non-slot choice.

Edit 2:  HQ is in BIG BOLD letters on his entry, so back to my original statement:  non-slotted HQ choice.

[Nusquam]

People get hung up on the IC rules about deploying ICs and the units they are attached to. You can deploy them simultaneously and meet all required rules as there is nothing saying that the IC and unit have to be placed sequentially. Plus there are rules elsewhere that infer that you can infiltrate ICs with units without infiltrate.

[Gentlemanloser]

Sadly, this is just like Shadowsun.

 

You *cannot* attach Cypher to an IG blob and grant them infiltrate (it's why the special Chosen formation gain Infiltrate as a special rule...)

 

The rules for ICs are;

 

Page 39, Joining and Leaving a Unit

 

An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit,
either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in
reserve) by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.

 

And Infiltrate;

 

Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last after all other units (friend and foe)

 

To break this down.  Cypher is deployed last, *after* the IG blob is deployed.  He cannot attach himself to a unit (and therefore confer the Infiltrate Special Rule) *until* he is deployed.

 

By which time you must have already deployed the IG blob, within your Deployment Zone.

 

I should note you *can* attach Cypher to an IG blob if both are held in reserves, and use Cyphers Infiltrate special Rule to outflank both.

 

But that's it.

 

 

You can deploy them simultaneously

 

Not if one has the Infiltrate special rule.

 

Cyper is even deployed *after* your opponent deploys, if you go first...

 

It's in no way simultaneous.
 

[Nusquam]

There is no way we are going to agree on IC rules on pg 39. Several forums have tried in vain because there are too many inconsistencies with the IC rues vs other rules and different interpretations. It's not that I don't want to try, its that I don't feel like mirroring at least three other sites with the same debate that has no end.
 
I'll leave a few examples of RAI from other rules:
 

Units that contain at least one model with this special rule...

 
What units have some models with infiltrate and some without by default? None.
 

Before deploying, he may only join squads of Jump Infantry.

 
Why the emphasis on only joining squads of jump infantry? Because this doesn't give us permission to join him to a unit before deploying, it limits us to what he can join.
 
Plus, dedicated transports you can start a unit inside it along with any IC attached and infiltrate is conferred to the transport, so this means you can infiltrate them by RAW if they are in a transport.
 
So to answer this Official Rules question as best I can, pending an FAQ/Errata(Yes one is needed, look at the debates across the other forums, rehashing them here won't help) is this:

 

If you find that you and your opponent cannot agree on the application of a rule, roll a dice to see whose interpretation will apply for the remainder of the game...

[Gentlemanloser]

 

What units have some models with infiltrate and some without by default? None.

 

Moot point.  Consider it future proofing, at best.

 

 

Why the emphasis on only joining squads of jump infantry? Because this
doesn't give us permission to join him to a unit before deploying, it
limits us to what he can join.

 

Shrike?  His rule is different, it's of no interest here.  If an IC has a differently worded rule than the general Infiltrate USR, we'd use that.  This topic is about the general Infiltrate USR isn't it?

Plus, dedicated transports you can start a unit inside it along with any
IC attached and infiltrate is conferred to the transport, so this means
you can infiltrate them by RAW if they are in a transport.

 

What rules are you referencing?

 

If you had an IC with Infiltrate, and a Squad *also* with Infiltrate, you could start them attached together, embarked upon a Dedicated Transport (As the IC is 'deploying' in coherency with the unit, both being embarked).

 

Otherwise, you have to follow the timing of the Infiltrate rule, and one unit (whoever has the rule) would have to be deployed *after* the other.

 

Or, you could put all three into reserves and use Infiltrate to outflank.

So to answer this Official Rules question as best I can, pending an
FAQ/Errata(Yes one is needed, look at the debates across the other
forums, rehashing them here won't help) is this:

 

A FAQ isn't needed.

 

By RAW, both the IC and the Squad need the Infiltrate USR to be deployed together.

 

You might personally prefer the rules to work otherwise.  But this doesn't need to be FAQed.  Unless GW want to errata the rules to allow an IC to give the ability for a squad to be deployed last, potentially outside their Deployment Zone.

[Nusquam]

It's not a moot point, it infers that there is more to the logic behind infiltrate. Also using that logic I can say the IC rules needed more proofing as well. It's circular logic, making both our arguments moot.
 
Shrikes rule was provided as a rule referencing base timing and infiltration abilities and is completely relevant.
 
FAQ stands for Frequently Asked Question. If is a frequent question, or one which answer is not easily reach then yes, one is needed. This thread and all the others proves it.
 
Shrike got an FAQ last edition for infiltrate. This one needs it too.
 
I'm not going respond any further to circular logic, or other logical fallacies. Axagoras, I hope that our debating has not caused any confusion and that you are able to find a sufficient answer. It's not that I think B&C aren't capable of figuring out rules, it's that I believe the problem is with the rules themselves, especially this one. This one has many pitfalls for strict RAW vs RAI and I have seen what this specific rules debate can do. I've seen pages upon pages of interpretations and all rules that pertain to this cited and there is no definitive answer that I can find. If others want to give it a go, go for it. I recommend that you look up other peoples thought first, so this doesn't turn into an almost carbon copy of other debates so we don't fall into back and forth quips like some of them did.
 
So in the interest of keeping this thread straightforward I'll reemphasize:
 

If you find that you and your opponent cannot agree on the application of a rule, roll a dice to see whose interpretation will apply for the remainder of the game...

[Raeven]

Sadly, this is just like Shadowsun.

 

You *cannot* attach Cypher to an IG blob and grant them infiltrate (it's why the special Chosen formation gain Infiltrate as a special rule...)

 

The rules for ICs are;

 

Page 39, Joining and Leaving a Unit

 

An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit,

either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in

reserve) by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.

 

And Infiltrate;

 

>

Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last after all other units (friend and foe)

 

To break this down.  Cypher is deployed last, *after* the IG blob is deployed.  He cannot attach himself to a unit (and therefore confer the Infiltrate Special Rule) *until* he is deployed.

 

By which time you must have already deployed the IG blob, within your Deployment Zone.

 

I should note you *can* attach Cypher to an IG blob if both are held in reserves, and use Cyphers Infiltrate special Rule to outflank both.

 

But that's it.

 

 

You can deploy them simultaneously

 

Not if one has the Infiltrate special rule.

 

Cyper is even deployed *after* your opponent deploys, if you go first...

 

It's in no way simultaneous.

 

You can if you put them both in the same vehicle.  Which is permitted.

[Raeven]

Also, technically, you hold your units in reserves in order to deploy them via infiltrate.  The reserve rules and IC rules allow us to join IC's to units held in reserves, so no matter what, your IC can still join a unit before they are deployed together, with Infiltrate transferring from who has it to who doesn't.

[Gentlemanloser]

Maybe a run through of the rules as you would use them in play would help.

 

Assume you are playing IG with Cypher, and won the roll to go first.

 

 

Deploy Forces.

 

Here, you have two choices;

1) Either Deploy the IG blob

2) Choose not to deploy it, but place it into Reserves

 

Cypher is a bit more complicated.  As he has the Infiltrate special rule, he must be deployed *last*.  Or you can choose not to deploy him at all and place him in reserves.

 

But, there's a small passage from the Deployment section that allows you to choose whether or not you going to use your Infiltrate rule (which isn't mentioned under the rule itself);

 

Page 121

 

or that chose to use their Infiltrate special rule

 

So Cypher has three options;

 

1: Use Infiltrate, and deploy *last*

2: Choose not to deploy him, but place him into Reserves

3: Choose not to use Infiltrate, and deploy him as normal with the rest of your Army

 

That's it by RAW.

 

If you choose option 1 for Cypher, you need to wait until *after* your opponent has Deployed, before you get the opportunity to Deploy Cypher.

 

By which time you've chosen either one of the two option for the IG blob above.

 

Trying to suggest a Golden Rule roll off for this, is akin to claiming one for trying to make Storm Bolters shoot at 36" range.  The RAW is quite clear, no matter how much we would like it to differ.  No circular logic here, everything follows the rules as laid out in the BRB.

 

(I would love to be able to attach an IC with Infiltrate to a unit without, to allow the Unit to Infiltrate.  But I'm glad this is *firmly* not allowed.  I'd attach Cypher to Centurion/Terminators in a heartbeat...)

 

Also, technically, you hold your units in reserves in order to deploy
them via infiltrate.  The reserve rules and IC rules allow us to join
IC's to units held in reserves, so no matter what, your IC can still
join a unit before they are deployed together, with Infiltrate
transferring from who has it to who doesn't.

 

Totally.  Which satisfies the "units have some models with infiltrate and some without" question.

 

As the combined unit could then deploy using Outflank via Infiltrate.

 

Also note;

 

An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of tnfiltrators during deployment.

 

Although the IC could join a unit with the Infiltrate USR if that unit chooses *not* to use thier Infiltrate USR and deploys normally.

 

Edit:

 

I will say that the rules are convoluted and could really do with tidying up.  But this applies to the entire rulebook.

 

Maybe why there's a rumour of a new edition coming next year...

[nurglez]

I believe the intent of infiltrate is to let ic's with it pass it on to the squad. However as the rule regarding order of deployment is rather clear. I would always ask my opponents consent until the faqs are updated.

[JamesI]

I believe the intent of infiltrate is to let ic's with it pass it on to the squad. However as the rule regarding order of deployment is rather clear. I would always ask my opponents consent until the faqs are updated.

Agree with this.

[Lysere]

I believe the intent of infiltrate is to let ic's with it pass it on to the squad. However as the rule regarding order of deployment is rather clear. I would always ask my opponents consent until the faqs are updated.

 

To be honest I don't agree with this, particularly in light of recent events. Too many ways to abuse such rules. A giant IG blob plopped down in the middle of the table? No thank you. Centurions and riptides are just as bad about it too.

 

If GW wish to fix it with an FAQ or whatever then fine but for now I see it as a way for a character to use their skill to guide a unit that lacks the rule behind enemy lines (outflank) or set up with specialized infiltrator units ahead of the main force. Like Shadowsun and her stealth suit bodyguard.

[shandwen]

I believe the intent of infiltrate is to let ic's with it pass it on to the squad. However as the rule regarding order of deployment is rather clear. I would always ask my opponents consent until the faqs are updated.

I fully believe that where they meant for infiltrate to be passed on it was made clear.  With chaos space mareens and their ability to take hq? that allows some squad to infiltrate, and Shrike who allows a jumper squad to infiltrate, if this ability is passed on to any IC with infiltrate it very much takes away any bonus from the characters that pay heavily in points to pass it on.

[nurglez]

Under infiltrate it states that units that contain at least 1 model. How else can you have this situation?

Also I remember reading that the strict order of deployment that stops character's with infiltrate joining units, also techniacally stops IC's joining units in dedicated transports at deployment.

 

Power levels and what not, well it's off topic, but I'll bite. This game isn't about balance and power levels, its about forging a narrative.

 

Next time I bring Huron or Cypher to throne of skulls I'll ask ahead and get a ruling from the event's team. Though last time I just erred on the side of caution :D

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Under infiltrate it states that units that contain at least 1 model. How else can you have this situation?

 

Upgrade characters.  Justicar Thawn for example (if he had Infiltrate, which he doesn't).

 

Or items of wargear that 'characters' in the unit can purchase.

 

As I said, at best consider it future proofing.

 

Or just relegate that section to when you take a unit, put it in reserves, and attach an Ic with Infiltrate in reserves to it.

[Raeven]

Under infiltrate it states that units that contain at least 1 model. How else can you have this situation?

 

Also I remember reading that the strict order of deployment that stops character's with infiltrate joining units, also techniacally stops IC's joining units in dedicated transports at deployment.

 

Power levels and what not, well it's off topic, but I'll bite. This game isn't about balance and power levels, its about forging a narrative.

 

Next time I bring Huron or Cypher to throne of skulls I'll ask ahead and get a ruling from the event's team. Though last time I just erred on the side of caution :D

Except the rules specifically permit you to out an IC in a transport before deployment. So while I agree that the rules preclude being deployed on foot, since you cannot be deployed in coherency, putting both in the same vehicle bypasses that restriction.

[Venemox]

IF the basic rule set assumed that a unit and an IC (one with and one without infiltrate), why would there be a special prohibition for a non-Infiltrate IC from joining an Infiltrate unit during deployment?

 

page 38, last paragraph of Infiltrate: 'An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment.'

 

IF that rule was deemed necessary to call out specifically to prohibit that action, I think we're safe in the assumption that since the reverse is not specifically prohibited, it was intended.

[Kastor Krieg]

IF the basic rule set assumed that a unit and an IC (one with and one without infiltrate), why would there be a special prohibition for a non-Infiltrate IC from joining an Infiltrate unit during deployment?

page 38, last paragraph of Infiltrate: 'An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment.'

IF that rule was deemed necessary to call out specifically to prohibit that action, I think we're safe in the assumption that since the reverse is not specifically prohibited, it was intended.

Exactly, because otherwise the BRB forbids an impossibility (a non-Infiltrating would already have been forbidden to join the Infiltrators by the previous rule). Since it's mentioned and forbidden explicite, it was not forbidden previously.

Ergo, the reverse, not explicitly forbidden joining (infiltrating IC to non-inflitrating unit) is allowed. QED

[Gentlemanloser]

Not at all.

 

It clarifies that as the Infiltrating unit *has* to deploy last, an IC without Infiltrate cannot join it.

 

Even if both units are placed in reserves (so no attaching an IC without Infiltrate to a unit with Infiltrate in Reserves to outflank the IC).

 

Nothing else needs to, or should be, inferred from that passage.

 

Again, it's totally possible for an IC and Unit (where only one has the Infiltrate rule) to join each other.

 

But only if they are both put in reserves...

 

Edit: Besides, inferring rules in no way over rides the written rules.  Which I've posted, in depth, disallow an IC with Infiltrate passing that on to a unit without Infiltrate out of reserves.

[Venemox]

Not at all.

 

It clarifies that as the Infiltrating unit *has* to deploy last, an IC without Infiltrate cannot join it.

 

Even if both units are placed in reserves (so no attaching an IC without Infiltrate to a unit with Infiltrate in Reserves to outflank the IC).

 

Nothing else needs to, or should be, inferred from that passage.

 

Again, it's totally possible for an IC and Unit (where only one has the Infiltrate rule) to join each other.

 

But only if they are both put in reserves...

 

Edit: Besides, inferring rules in no way over rides the written rules.  Which I've posted, in depth, disallow an IC with Infiltrate passing that on to a unit without Infiltrate out of reserves.

Inferring and interpreting are a necessary part of reading any technical documentation.

 

http://everydaylife.globalpost.com/reading-interpretation-skills-15185.html

 

Here's a short article about reading, which explicitly states that inference is a critical part of reading skills.  Something I think some posters on the OR forget.  GW expected, like any technical author, a certain amount of reading comprehension being present prior to reading this document.

[Gentlemanloser]

Such as the ability to follow the timeframes set out in the rules that disallow ICs using Infiltrate to join units that don't have it?

 

I've posted this clearly a couple of times now.

 

No inferring or interpreting needed.

 

It's really quite clear...

[nurglez]

Basically. Raw no. Rai Maybe.