Gentlemanloser Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 By using three HQ slots, we can get a unit of TDA with a 3+ Cover Save in the open, or a +3 bonus to any existing Cover Save they might have. This takes; Mordrak + a unit of Ghost Knights GK Librarian with The Shrouding Cypher Mordrak provides the TDA unit and Stealth. The Librarian provides Stealth (not required because of the Ghost Knights) but better, a 6+ Cover Save in the open (and *not* Stealth). Cypher provides Shrouding. So in the open the unit has a 6+ Cover Save, Stealth from the Ghost Knights (+1) and Shrouding from Cypher (+2). Now, with Markerlights this isn't as powerful as before. But if you're not facing Tau, having a whole Squad of TDA (bar Cypher) with 3++ saves is nothing to sniff at. ;) Just don't let Mordrak get sniped! ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285125-3-cover-save-in-the-open/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Caloth Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 The eldar have a way to give an autarch a 2+ cover in the open... i need to buy Cypher's rules, but isn't he kinda Chaosy? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285125-3-cover-save-in-the-open/#findComment-3558035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 1, 2014 Author Share Posted January 1, 2014 Them tricksy space elves! Cypher can be used by just about every 'human' army in the game. Bar Dark Angels. ;) And he isn't an ally, but a full fledged HQ choice (that doesn't take a FoC slot) in whichever army he appears in. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285125-3-cover-save-in-the-open/#findComment-3558045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Caloth Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 O.o Well this ought to be interesting... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285125-3-cover-save-in-the-open/#findComment-3558125 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Oh boy, what GM Caloth said... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285125-3-cover-save-in-the-open/#findComment-3558154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 1, 2014 Author Share Posted January 1, 2014 Don't forget, as he's not an Ally, he (unlike Battle Brothers) can ride in your Transports... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285125-3-cover-save-in-the-open/#findComment-3558196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyro X Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 You forgot that the career is a 2+ rerollable cover save (cloak + bike). We have stuff to ignore his cover though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285125-3-cover-save-in-the-open/#findComment-3558272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Caloth Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 If you get close enough. -.- Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285125-3-cover-save-in-the-open/#findComment-3558372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyro X Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I still don't know how effective worrying able the it would be. A lot of people are playing tau As well. Best best IMO is use.tanks to block LOS PR use cypher to infiltrate a squad and land raider. And if your worried about getting close? Dread k rights with 30" jump and flamer would toast him or the fast attack guys with flamers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285125-3-cover-save-in-the-open/#findComment-3558753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 2, 2014 Author Share Posted January 2, 2014 You can't use Cypher to Infiltrate a squad. I've set out the reasons why in an OR thread. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285125-3-cover-save-in-the-open/#findComment-3558835 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 >hey guiz lets make a 2+ re-rollable cover save unit Great idea, except for, ya know, stuff like; - Any psyker with access to Divination can roll 'Perfect Timing' - Riptides, markerlights - Stormhammers and other melee powerhouses give precisely zero flamingos about your cover save - Template weapons (you are in TDA, but multiple template weapons can and will kill you, vis a vis Burna Boyz and so on) - Rune Priests (which also have access to Divination as well, so they double hard counter you) It's fun to theoretical this stuff, but as the Ultramarines say, the practical is more important. And the practical is, most armies have means to deny you a cover save, and often do it in conjunction with either AP2 or a tonne of hits to force enough saves to kill you. Come back when you've figured out a 2+ invul combo. Until then, Eldar, Tau, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Ultramarines (Tigerius), Mantis Warriors, Inquisition, and any friends of those literally do not care. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285125-3-cover-save-in-the-open/#findComment-3561671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 6, 2014 Author Share Posted January 6, 2014 1: Random. Want to base everything on rolling up Perfect Timing? 2: Tau suck. Yup, they've destroyed Cover Saves this edition. What you gonna do? :P 3: Melee? Lolz. Why bother this edition, and why are you letting them get into CC with you anyway? Feed them a Rhino to blow up and block them. 4: Who uses Template Weapons bar the Helldrake? Hands up anyone who takes an Incinerator over a Psycannon or a Flamers over a Grav/Plamsa/Melta? No-one? 5: Don't forget the Exorcist special Character that can also stop Psychic Powers! ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285125-3-cover-save-in-the-open/#findComment-3561683 Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnyocum Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 I actually use 4 flamers in my 6-tac-squad UM list, and have since 4th ed. I also use a heavy flamer in my 10-man TDA squad that comes down with my 1st Co Master in my Guardians of the Covenant. Too many cover saves abound, so I've decided to make lists where the enemy's got to make the armor/invulns instead of cover. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285125-3-cover-save-in-the-open/#findComment-3561724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 1: Random. Want to base everything on rolling up Perfect Timing? On a Mastery 2 psyker, you have very good odds of rolling it. On a Mastery 3, you're practically guranteed it. So yeah, especially now people are running multiple psykers (cheers Inquisition), your odds of facing 'Ignore Cover' on a stick are high. 2: Tau suck. Yup, they've destroyed Cover Saves this edition. What you gonna do? Grumble into my beer as a Knight player. Laugh hysterically as a Tau player :) 3: Melee? Lolz. Why bother this edition, and why are you letting them get into CC with you anyway? Feed them a Rhino to blow up and block them. What is Infiltrate. What is Outflank. What is Derpstrike. What are Ravens. Saying melee is dead is dumb. It requires more effort, and yes GW do hobble you at every turn, but melee happens regularly in my games Turn 3 onwards (sometimes Turn 2). Feeding them a Rhino = easy First Blood (assuming it didn't die Turn 1 anyway, which is usually my experience with AV11). 4: Who uses Template Weapons bar the Helldrake? Hands up anyone who takes an Incinerator over a Psycannon or a Flamers over a Grav/Plamsa/Melta? No-one? Heaps of people. On low BS units, they're a very efficient choice. And our incinerators are actually pretty baller in certain matchups, I run my Purifiers with incinerators, and don't forget the Trogdor Purgator build I advocate (now with less Rhino and more Raven). Temple weapons exist, and I've lost Terminators to them. Force wounds, get kills. 5: Don't forget the Exorcist special Character that can also stop Psychic Powers! Huehuehuehue. Implying anyone plays Forge World jank SC's ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285125-3-cover-save-in-the-open/#findComment-3561733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 6, 2014 Author Share Posted January 6, 2014 What is Infiltrate. What is Outflank. Please! Servo Skull. And the inability to assault after using either of those two options... What is Derpstrike. Coteaz. Plus I'd link you to your own post about Interceptor Riptides... What are Ravens. Saying melee is dead is dumb. It requires more effort, and yes GW do hobble you at every turn, but melee happens regularly in my games Turn 3 onwards (sometimes Turn 2). Melee is dead. Why are you trying to Melee again? Random Ranges, Overwtach, AP3 Power Weapons. Feeding them a Rhino = easy First Blood (assuming it didn't die Turn 1 anyway, which is usually my experience with AV11). Ah, the inequality of going First. No one should worry about First Blood, nor plan around getting or losing it. Heaps of people. All shooting units come with, as standard, infantry killing weapons. Why bother using up your 'special' slot to take more Infantry killing weapons (with reduced range), to replace your Infantry killing weapons, and lock yourself out of giving your unit dual purposes by not being able to take wepaons that can hurt Armour, MCs, TDA? Now, if flamers could be shot through firepoints *into* embarked units, that would be a different story! /sob quoting went wrong. Not gonna try to sort it out... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285125-3-cover-save-in-the-open/#findComment-3561799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Please! Servo Skull. And the inability to assault after using either of those two options... Implying they deploy in LoS of your stuff. Implying they need to assault the turn they come on (if you've deployed properly, even under 5th edition rules, most units don't have a charge angle). Servo skull can't prevent Outflank. Coteaz. Plus I'd link you to your own post about Interceptor Riptides... It's still a delivery system, and if you drop enough stuff at the same time, you can lessen the impact of an InterTide or a Coteaz. Remember, they only get to select one target to Intercept. Melee is dead. Why are you trying to Melee again? Random Ranges, Overwtach, AP3 Power Weapons. 2D6 goes both ways; sometimes you roll snake eyes, sometimes you roll box cars and rolfstomp across the board. It averages at 7", which is about what it was last edition as well. AP3 power weapons only matter if you fight 2+ saves. Against everything else, it's fine. Terminators are not common, and I can't remember the last time I saw Deathwing. We're about the only army left that regularly field more than 10. Overwatch is usually meaningless, the only units that make it threatening are Lootaz and other high volume units. Ah, the inequality of going First. No one should worry about First Blood, nor plan around getting or losing it. Pro-tip: don't take AV11 vehicles or lone models. Why bother using up your 'special' slot to take more Infantry killing weapons (with reduced range), to replace your Infantry killing weapons, and lock yourself out of giving your unit dual purposes by not being able to take wepaons that can hurt Armour, MCs, TDA? Because cover saves still exist if you don't play Tau or a Divination psyker, and if murdering infantry is the units role (which for Purifiers is most definitely the case, and you can argue the same for stuff like Tacticals or Sternguard), flamers fit the role. Not saying you should always take flamers, but they're a great weapon for clearing objectives of superior numbers. Now, if flamers could be shot through firepoints *into* embarked units, that would be a different story! You're an advocate for vehicles, and you suggest something like this...lel, it's probably going to be in 7th edition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285125-3-cover-save-in-the-open/#findComment-3562194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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