Mordrak lists

[jeffersonian000]

Per RAW, Mordrak is a level 1 Psyker in a squad with BoP, which means he can cast a power separately from his squad, just like Thawn can.

 

As to Mordrak gaining scoring via TGS, I'm inclined to believe he cannot benefit even though per RAW he can. Functionally, "Grand Master Mordrak" is the same unit as "Mordrak and his unit if Ghost Knights", which means Mordrak is never a unit of one, allowing ICs the ability to join with him while also disallowing TGS from effecting Mordrak on his own. My opinion, anyway.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Per RAW, Mordrak is a level 1 Psyker in a squad with BoP, which means he can cast a power separately from his squad, just like Thawn can.

 

Per RAW, neither Mordrak or Thawn can do this.

 

BoP limits the *squad* (of which Mordrak and Thawn are a part, as they are upgrade characters to it, not ICs...) to a single Power.

 

They get to use thier individual PML only when they are no longer part of a Squad with BoP.

[Roma]

I took a stab at this type off build in the army lists section.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Per RAW, Mordrak is a level 1 Psyker in a squad with BoP, which means he can cast a power separately from his squad, just like Thawn can.

Well, you know GW, 'If its vaguely fun, nerf it into the ground'. 

[Roma]

A question arose in my army list:

 

A)I was told mordrak needs to get a unit of ghost knights (1-5) so an inquisitor can join him

B)I do not see how this is the case. The way I read it is that you can buy just mordrak, and attach inquisitors/other HQ's to him as he is a unit, with the option of getting extra models.

[Gentlemanloser]

As said in the other thread, the unit of more minis a unit of ghost Knights.

 

Modrak on his own is a unit of only a single mini.

 

 

at which point he reverts to being a single model unit

 

Part of his rules. ;)

[Grand Master Caloth]

Until he takes wounds and possibly summons more ghosts

[Gentlemanloser]

Totally.  With a Ghost up, other ICs can join the Ghost Knight unit, of which Mordrak is an Upgrade character.

 

But when those Ghosts die, and he reverts to a single mini unit, they can't.

 

Really, GW fluffed his rules big time (And Thawn.  Does Thawn get his Squads Psybolt Ammo upgrade?  Does he keep it when he dies and becomes his own unit?).  The 'not an IC but can be part of a unit and a unit on your own' status isn't supported in game.

[DinoDoc]

Really, GW fluffed his rules big time (And Thawn.  Does Thawn get his Squads Psybolt Ammo upgrade?  Does he keep it when he dies and becomes his own unit?).  The 'not an IC but can be part of a unit and a unit on your own' status isn't supported in game.

That's my real problem. Grand Master Vorth Mordrak has awesome fluff but his rules fail to match up to it. Same deal with Helynna Valeria.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Its okay though. Mordrak is so jank, you really shouldn't be fielding him anyway. Thawn is kinda in the same boat, they're overpriced for what they do and what they do is hampered by GW's own lack of understanding of the rules they write. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Mordrak would be *awesome* if the Ghost Knight unit didn't die when he does.  That's a massive liability, that as far as I know, no other unit in the game suffers from.

 

On his own, he can basically cost 80 points for a GKGM with a NDH.  As long as you spawn the total three 40 points Ghost Knights.

 

You cannot get a HQ with his stats and rules for 80 points.  That's pure awesome.

 

Losing an extra 200 points when he dies, not so. ;)

[Grand Master Caloth]

Yes Thawn gets and keeps the unit's psybolt ammo, and yes, ICs can join Mordrak even without any ghosts.

[Gentlemanloser]

That's nice RAI backed opinion, but there's no rules to support this.

 

In fact, as I've posted, Mordraks own rules state that on his own, he is a single mini unit.  As such, ICs *cannot* join him.

[jeffersonian000]

Except that Mordrak is never a single model unit, as there is always the ability to have more models in his unit. Per the BRB, Mordrak qualifies as a unit ICs can attach to, just like Riptides.

 

As to Mordrak's mastery level versus BoP, Mordrak does not have the BoP rule, and would follow all the rules in BoP while his Ghosts are present just like any other attached character with a mastery level, such as Nemesis Force Weapon activation. The rules for BoP and Mastery are not mutually exclusive. Thawn is a ML2 character in a BoP unit, he can legally cast 2 powers even though BoP limits his unit to 1 power per turn. This allows Thawn to cast Hammerhand and the unit to activate Force Weapons in the same player turn. Mordrak, being ML1, can use Psychic Communion in the same turn his Ghost activate Force Weapons, Mordrak simply won't activate his Daemon Hammer due to not having a Warp Point to spare.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

Of course he's a single mini unit.  His rules sate as such.

 

This changes, when a Unit of Ghsot Knights has Mordrak as an upgrade character *for that unit*.

 

Mordrak on his own, is a different entity to a unit of Ghost Knights, and isn't an IC, and by his own rules, is a single mini unit.

 

Mordrak can onlybe a single mini unit, so no other ICs can join him.

 

A Unit of Ghost Knights however (again, of which Mordrak is an upgrade character of that unit) can have ICs attached.

 

Edit: Again, the RAW stops Mordrak and Thawn from using any psychic powers of thier own.

 

They are part of a unit with the BoP rules.

 

Attached ICs, are not subject to the BoP rules of a unit, it doesn't carry over to them.

[Gentlemanloser]

Jeff, I was googling old threads, as i was sure this has been discussed before, and stumbled across this one;

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231578-brotherhood-of-psykers-rule/page-2

 

Might I ask what has changed your mind since the end of that thread?

[Roma]

Except that Mordrak is never a single model unit, as there is always the ability to have more models in his unit. Per the BRB, Mordrak qualifies as a unit ICs can attach to, just like Riptides.

 

As to Mordrak's mastery level versus BoP, Mordrak does not have the BoP rule, and would follow all the rules in BoP while his Ghosts are present just like any other attached character with a mastery level, such as Nemesis Force Weapon activation. The rules for BoP and Mastery are not mutually exclusive. Thawn is a ML2 character in a BoP unit, he can legally cast 2 powers even though BoP limits his unit to 1 power per turn. This allows Thawn to cast Hammerhand and the unit to activate Force Weapons in the same player turn. Mordrak, being ML1, can use Psychic Communion in the same turn his Ghost activate Force Weapons, Mordrak simply won't activate his Daemon Hammer due to not having a Warp Point to spare.

 

SJ

does this mean he could, by your logic, cast a separate hammerhand to the unit?

[Roma]

Another rules question: can a libriarian use the summoning the turn he arrives by DS?

[DinoDoc]

Do you have the codex? The answer is in the rule for The Summoning.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

'This power can be used at the beginning of the Librarian's movement phase'

 

Would seem to suggest you can't use it the turn he arrives, as his Movement phase is taken up resolving Derpstrike. Plus, GW have made it clear they hate Reserves, so I'd always go with the weaker interpretation, as that's probably what they'll FAQ it to be. 

[jeffersonian000]

Jeff, I was googling old threads, as i was sure this has been discussed before, and stumbled across this one;

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231578-brotherhood-of-psykers-rule/page-2

 

Might I ask what has changed your mind since the end of that thread?

That was 2011, this is 2014. We've had an entire rules update since then, going from, 5th to 6th. In addition, it us my position that Hammerhand does not stack in 6th, which changes how I view the interaction between Mastery Levels and Brotherhood of Psykers.

 

SJ

[Grand Master Caloth]

@GL: He isn't a monstrous creature, so please show me where an IC cannot join? And how would it be different from an IC joining a unit that has been gunned down to a single mini?

 

And for Thawn, you by the upgrade for the unit. Just because he is separate, he wouldn't lose that upgrade, or else when you combat squad a full unit, half of them would lose the upgrade

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot, however,
join vehicle squadrons (see page 77) or units that always consist of a
single model

 

Mordrak is a unit that *always* consists of a single model.

 

 

being a single-model unit

 

A unit of Ghost Knights, with Mordrak as an upgrade character, doesn't always consist of a single model.

 

 

Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form a unit

[Roma]

After reading pages of these arguments, I have to admit personally RAW:
Mordrak cannot be joined by an IC when alone

The whole unit only gets 1 power charge

[jeffersonian000]

Per RAW, Mordrak is never a single model unit due to his ability to spawn Ghost Knights as well as the ability to purchase Ghost Knights. If this was not the case, ICs would not be able to join Riptides that don't have Drones attached. It is a fallacy for Mordrak to be treated as two separate units with same name, same model, same stat-line, etc., yet completely different if Ghosts are present or not. Per his army list entry, Ghost Knights are lists as an upgrade to the Grand Master Mordrak entry (darkened box located within the Mordrak entry).

 

As to Mastery Levels and BoP units, there are no restrictions listed that informs us to ignore a character's ML while part of a unit with BoP. We have two examples of BoP unit upgrade characters with their own ML, Grand Master Mordrak and Justicar Thawn. BoP tells us that the unit is treated as a single ML1 Psyker, and while any powers are treated as being casted through the Justicar or Knight of the Flame, both Thawn and Mordrak are considered the "Justicar" of their respective squads, meaning they should legally take a wound from any Perils they may be afflicted with. In Thawn's, he'll break away as a separate unit once he resurrects. For Mordrak, he might spawn a Ghost, or die and take all his Ghosts with him. On casting, I do believe that Mordrak has a separate Warp Point from his Ghosts, which allows him to cast a power without robbing his Ghosts of the ability to activate their Force Weapons. Due to the fact that I believe Hammerhand does not stack, if Mordrak cast Hammerhand on his unit, the Ghosts could still activate their NFW on the first unsaved wound, although Mordrak would not as he would have already spent his Warp Charge (of course, with a Hammer, he doesn't really need activation). Thawn is in a better position with his ML2, allow him to cast Hammerhand and still activate his Halberd.

 

SJ