Mordrak lists

[Gentlemanloser]

1: A Unit of Ghost Knights is a different unit to that of Mordrak.

 

The moment a Ghost Knight spawns, a totally new Unit, with new rules, is created.  Of which, Mordrak becomes an upgrade character to.

 

2: A unit with the BoP rule can only cast a single Psychic Power per turn;

 

 

A Grey Knight unit can use one Psychic Power per turn

 

No where is Mordrak given permission to circumvent the BoP rule, or it's restrictions.

 

The only way for Mordrak to not be bound by BoP is if he wasn't a part of the unit.  Being an upgrade character to it, this just isn't a position anyone could argue from.

[Roma]

 

Jeff, I was googling old threads, as i was sure this has been discussed before, and stumbled across this one;

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231578-brotherhood-of-psykers-rule/page-2

 

Might I ask what has changed your mind since the end of that thread?

That was 2011, this is 2014. We've had an entire rules update since then, going from, 5th to 6th. In addition, it us my position that Hammerhand does not stack in 6th, which changes how I view the interaction between Mastery Levels and Brotherhood of Psykers.

 

SJ

Is this edition any different from the previous in terms of hammerhand stacking or not? I always heard it can be.

 

p.s if mordrak is treated as a different unit from ghost knights for independant characters joining, then he can be the target of his own grand strategy, since it only specifies "unit of ghost knights". what happens after he spawns knights is anyone's guess...so that would be rather weird.

[Gentlemanloser]

Is this edition any different from the previous in terms of hammerhand stacking or not? I always heard it can be.

I don't think so.

Should still be able to stack.

p.s if mordrak is treated as a different unit from ghost knights for independant characters joining, then he can be the target of his own grand strategy, since it only specifies "unit of ghost knights". what happens after he spawns knights is anyone's guess...so that would be rather weird.

Exactly!

[Grand Master Caloth]

I have never seen it played that HH can stack

[DinoDoc]

I have never seen it played that HH can stack

I don't see why it couldn't. Unless you have something that states otherwise, the power should be able to stack with itself. It gets amusing if you are able to throw Might of Titan into the mix.

[jeffersonian000]

Actually, if Mordrak is treated as always a member of his unit of Ghost Knights regardless of whether or not any Ghost Knights are present, then ICs can join him at any time while Mordrak can never benefit from GS. It makes no sense to treat Mordrak on his own and Mordrak with Ghosts as two completely separate "Mordraks" when simply treating him as member of his unit of Ghost Knights even when alone is easier and causes no rules issues.

 

As to BoP, Mordrak does not have the BoP rule, even when he is an upgrade character in a BoP unit. BoP tells us the unit is a ML1 Psyker, Perils is assigned to the upgrade character or a non-character BoP model if the upgrade character is dead, and Nemesis Force Weapons have an odd interaction with the BoP unit allowing ICs to activate out of initiative step while attached to a BoP unit. Is your hang up that BoP units may only cast 1 power per turn? A BoP unit with an attached IC does not limit the IC to only 1 power per unit per turn due to the IC having its own ML. Mordrak, while not an IC, has his own ML. As such, Mordrak and his unit of Ghost Knights have collectively 2 Warp Points: 1 from Mordrak due to his ML1, 1 from the Ghosts due to BoP.

 

As to Hammerhand, the only time permission to stack was given was at the end of 5th, as referenced in the last set of 5th Ed FAQs. As of the very first 6th Ed FAQs, all reference to stacking same powers was removed, and the BRB advises us that different powers stack with a note that same powers require specific permission to be cumulative. Hammerhand lacks verbiage stating it is cumulstive, therefore it is not.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

Actually, if Mordrak is treated as always a member of his unit of Ghost

Knights regardless of whether or not any Ghost Knights are present

 

He's not...  Not sure where you got that from.  He's only part of a unit of Ghost Knights, when there's a Ghost Knight present.

 

Otherwise he's part of the Mordrak as a single mini unit.  Which is different and has different rules...

 

 

Is your hang up that BoP units may only cast 1 power per turn? A BoP

unit with an attached IC does not limit the IC to only 1 power per unit

per turn due to the IC having its own ML. Mordrak, while not an IC, has

his own ML. As such, Mordrak and his unit of Ghost Knights have

collectively 2 Warp Points:

 

Incorrect.

 

IC's don't get covered by BoP, as it's not a special rule that carries over to ICs.

 

This is why Mordrak is constrained by BoP (and it's restriction that the *unit* can only cast one power per turn).

 

If Mordrak was an IC, it would be different.

 

But he's not.

 

As for stacking HH;

 

 

Note that bonuses and penalties from different blessings are always cumulative

 

Different as in Different Powers, or Different casts of the same power?

 

There is no other restriction I can find on Psychic Powers stacking in the BRB.

[jeffersonian000]

Pg. 32 of the BRB advises us that benefit and penelties from the same ability are not cumulative without specific permission. Pg. 68 of the BRB advises us in three separate entries that benefits and penelties from different powers are cumulative unless otherwise noted. Pg. 25 of the GK Codex does not contain verbiage advising us any of the powers are cumulative, with Might of Titan being the only exception in that it specifically informs us that it is cumulative with Hammerhand.

 

Where are you finding rules for same powers to be cumulative without specific permission?

 

 

As to Mordrak, Ghost Knights are listed under Mordrak's special rule "Ghostly Bodyguard", which details Mordraks association with his unit of Ghost Knights. In effect, Mordrak + 0-8 Ghost Knights is the same type of unit as Riptide + 0+ drones. With or without Ghosts, "Grand Master Mordrak" is the same unit as "Grand Master Mordrak and his Ghost Knights", it is a fallacy to assume otherwise.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

Except his rules tell you otherwise.

 

On his own, he's a single mini unit.  With the Ghost Knights they form a new unit that has different special rules.

 

Unless you want to argue that Modrak has Stealth all the time, without any Ghost Knights spawned.  And that he's also bound by the Ghost Knights BoP without any around as well...

[jeffersonian000]

I've been arguing the opposite, if fact. Mordrak does not have Stealth on his own, nor is he a BoP unit. He is, however, the only mandatory model that must be present for a unit of Ghost Knights to exist. And unlike Draigo, Mordrak does not "unlock" the option to take Ghost Knights. Literally by taking Mordrak in your army you have up to 3 Ghist Knights that can spawn over the course of a game. Once those Ghosts spawn, they are part if Mordraj's unit, can never be separate ftom Mordrak's unit, and guarantee that Mordrak is never just a single model unit, regardless of whether or not any additional Ghost Knights were purchased before game.

 

On his own Mordrak has his own special rules. With Ghosts, Mordrak has the exact same special rules he had sans Ghosts. The special rules the Ghosts bring to Mordrak are also applied to any ICs that join them. While Mordrak gains Stealth and the effects of BoP as soon as a Ghost is present, so does the attach Librarian and Inquisitor that joined him. At no point are we tokd to replace Mordrak with a different model, different stat line, or different rules. Mordrak stays the same with Ghosts or without.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

*If* Mordrak is the same unit as the Ghost Knights unit (which he's not), then Mordrak *always* has Stealth and BoP.

 

You can't have it any other way.

 

His rules stink, but in no way do you get to cherry pick the best of both world, including the rules for ICs, just because of GWs bad writing.

 

 

can also include a unit of Ghost Knights, Ghost Knights also always have the Stealth Special rule

 

Is Mordrak part of a unit of Ghost Knights?  If yes, then Ghost Knights (of which Mordrak is part of the unit and *not* a temporary attached IC) always have the Stealth Special rule.

 

Mordrak *always* has the Stealth special rule.

 

Which he doesn't.

 

So he can't *always* be part of a unit of Ghost Knights.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Well, as we've once again established (I think this is the 14th Mordrak thread), Mordrak is poorly written and hard to use. Why not just take a normal Grandmaster and forget about Turn 1 Derpstrike?

 

:)

[boreas]

Because he's a fun and fluffy character? And also, first turn DS is nice :)

As for the whole:

This is why Mordrak is constrained by BoP (and it's restriction that the *unit* can only cast one power per turn).

I still beg to differ in opinion! The unit is considered a psyker that can cast a single power. BUT Mordrak is also considered a psyker, different from the "caster" unit and can cast his own powers on top, using his own warp charges. Same as Justicar Thawn. I'll quote a wise person:

Permissive ruleset.

If you may, it's legal.

If you may not, it's not!

And I'd say that while the rule is quite clear that the "unit" can only cast one power, nowhere does it say that characters inside that unit can't use their own warp charges. So those two different (but physacally integrated) psykers (the unit and the character) can both use their powers. The rulebook version of BoP is, in my opinion clearer on this, as it doesn't refer to a maximum of powers to be cast, but rather to the unit simply being a level 1 psyker.

[Gentlemanloser]

Is Mordrak a member of the unit? (Not an IC attached to the unit, but an actual full on member)

In total, how many Psychic Powers is a GK unit with BoP *permitted* to cast a turn?

The answers should be;

Yes

1

A Ghost Knight unit containing Mordrak is *permitted* to use a sigle Psychic Power per turn.

That's all the can legally use.

Unless you can find specific permission in the rules that allows upgrade characters (*NOT ICs* too many get hung up on this. Ignore the IC rules entirely...) in units to ignore the restrictions in BoP.

I can't.

BUT Mordrak is also considered a psyker, different from the "caster" unit

There's no rules to support this.

While it might be RAI, there's nothing in the rules to permit this.

[boreas]

Ha, but Mordrak is not the unit and the unit si not Mordrak. While Mordrak is part of the unit, he's also his own specific model. Now, I'vegone through the "psyker" part of the rule, and they always only refer the "the psyker", not the model, the character, etc.

 

So, here's how I see it:

-Is Mordrak a psyker? Yes, it's in his rules with mastery level and all

-Is the unit a psyker? Yes, ML 1 according to rulebook OR ML undefined according to codex: GK

 

So, what does the rulebook say:

-Mordrak produces his Warp charge

-The unit produces it's Warp charge

 

Now, who can expand it's warp charges:

-The unit can spend its WC to cast one power maximum (as per rules)

-Mordrak (which is in a every sense a different thing than his unit: Mordrak is not the unit and the unit is not Mordrak) can spend his own WC. 

 

 

 

Now, I'll agree that the wording for BoP is very poor in C:GK and the wording in the BRB is much better. I do not have my codex here at work, but does the basic GK justicar (another non-independant character in a BoP unit) have the "psyker" rule? That would define a clear difference between Mordrak/Thawn and other non-IC in Bop units. I'll try to contact my (not very) direct contacts at GW to push the question over the basic customer-service ruleguys...

[Gentlemanloser]

Mordrak needs the PML for when he's a single mini unit in his own right.

 

But when he's part of a unit with BoP, there is *nothing* that allows him to bypass the C:GK restriction of "unit may cast 1 power".

 

Unless you try to rule that Mordrak *isn't* part of the unit for all intents and purposes.

 

Which he very obviously (as an upgrade character) is.

[boreas]

Mordrak is definitely part of the unit, just like a joined IC. But he's a different psyker, just like a joined IC. That he is covered by BoP or not is irrelevant. A model is not it's unit (unless he's a single model) and a unit is not the model, although integrated. Nothing in BoP makes it impossible for a psyker (IC or non-IC) inside the unit from casting. The restriction is on the unit as a whole, not it's parts.

 

I've sent the question to my friend. He's regularly in contact with people from the studio in England. Hopefully, a clarification will be made!

[Gentlemanloser]

just like a joined IC

Nothing like a joined IC. That's why I said folk should ignore the IC rules above.

IC have their own rules to cover this, Upgrade characters are nothing more than a mini in the unit.

Nothing in BoP makes it impossible for a psyker (IC or non-IC) inside the unit from casting.

If you had a unit with 5 minis with PML each *and* BoP, how many Psychic Powers could the unit cast a turn?

1.

[boreas]

Funny, but I'd say six. One for the unit and one for each psyker. Hence why models with the BoP do not have PML in the codex (unless I'm mistaken? Still at work! If the GK justicar has a PML, my theory crumbles and for the next month, I'll refer to you as Master Gentlemanloser OR The Doctor as your prefer). A "test" of this will be the zoanthropes in the new Nids codex. They supposedly have BoP, so I wonder how they will be written. If the zoathrope entry has a PML AND BoP, then my demonstration will obviuosly be wrong. They're also rumored to have an upgrade zoanthrope, so this might lead to further clues...

 

 

Upgrade characters are nothing more than a mini in the unit.

 

This I also disagree with... They often have a different statline and/or rules. They also have different basic abilities (LoS, Precision shot) so they clearly can do more than your basic model.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'll refer to you as Master Gentlemanloser OR The Doctor as your prefer

Hehehehe.

Who?

Nah, no Justicar has a PML.

But then no Justicar can be a single mini model in their own right.

Unlike Thawn and Mordrak.

This I also disagree with... They often have a different statline and/or

rules. They also have different basic abilities (LoS, Precision shot)

so they clearly can do more than your basic model.

That doesn't just apply to upgrade characters though.

Lots of different minis in a unit can have different stat lines and abilities.

They're all still full members of the unit, and governed by anything the unit can or can't do.

[boreas]

Justicars can be alone and still cast via BoP. Mordrak and Thawn can cast while alone, why couldn't they cast via BoP while in the unit? An IC still has the limits of his units (can't shoot at a different unit or assault a different unit) because it's also limited by what a unit can't or cannot do. I'm still not convinced that being a non-IC has any relevance to casting psychic powers. BoP never, ever targets a model, it targets a unit. If I told you a unit cannot shoot, an IC inside that unit wouldn't be able to shoot. So, by your logic, If a unit with BoP (which includes and IC) can't cast more than one power, then the IC wouldn't be able to cast?

 

Also, re-reading BoP in C:Gk, it says the unit can use one psychic power. There is no restrictive term (eg: "only one") or reference to models inside the unit not being able to cast their own. So, by a permissive ruleset: the unit can cast a power (the BoP rule permit that) and the psykers inside can cast their powers (the rulebook psyker section permits that).

 

I still think that Ghost Knights shouldn't have BoP, as they aren't really there. Mordrak should only be permitted to cast his own power. Thawn is a different thing that should be discussed in a different thread, as being able to cast his own two powers goes a long way towards making him valuable.

[Gentlemanloser]

Justicars can be alone and still cast via BoP.

 

Yup.  As could the last surviving member of a GK Squad with the BoP rule.

 

Mordrak and Thawn can cast while alone, why couldn't they cast via BoP while in the unit?

 

Via thier PML, as thier individual single mini units don't have the BoP rule.

 

They do use BoP while part of a unit (this isn't thier single mini unit).

 

 

An IC still has the limits of his units (can't shoot at a different unit or assault a different unit) because it's also limited by what a unit can't or cannot do. I'm still not convinced that being a non-IC has any relevance to casting psychic powers. BoP never, ever targets a model, it targets a unit. If I told you a unit cannot shoot, an IC inside that unit wouldn't be able to shoot. So, by your logic, If a unit with BoP (which includes and IC) can't cast more than one power, then the IC wouldn't be able to cast?

 

BoP doesn't transfer to attached ICs.  It's not a special rule that does.

 

You do bring up an interesting point that the ICs rules state you join the unit for all intents and purposes. Which should include BoP restrictions.

 

Except Special Rules, by default, do not carry over to ICs.

 

Also, re-reading BoP in C:Gk, it says the unit can use one psychic power. There is no restrictive term (eg: "only one") or reference to models inside the unit not being able to cast their own. So, by a permissive ruleset: the unit can cast a power (the BoP rule permit that) and the psykers inside can cast their powers (the rulebook psyker section permits that).

 

That would mean the unit has cast two (or more) powers.  Which isn't one.  So that's not permitted. ;)

 

I still think that Ghost Knights shouldn't have BoP, as they aren't really there. Mordrak should only be permitted to cast his own power. Thawn is a different thing that should be discussed in a different thread, as being able to cast his own two powers goes a long way towards making him valuable.

 

I've never changed stance that the rules for Mordrak and Thawn are ill designed... :(

[boreas]

 

That would mean the unit has cast two (or more) powers.  Which isn't one.  So that's not permitted.

 

Nope, the unit has cast one power. A model within the unit has cast the other. When Mordrak casts his power, it's not the unit that's casting, major difference. A model's action, stats, rules, restrictions, etc are not the unit's action, rules, restrictions unless specified. A good example of this is: if a unit has moved, but a model with a heavy weapon hasn't, he can still fire normally. In 5th ed. it was specified that if the unit had moved, models within it that carried heavy weapons couldn't fire.

[Gentlemanloser]

The model in the unit is part of the unit therefore the *unit* has cast more than one power.

 

When it is only permitted to cast one.

[Grand Master Caloth]

I have to disagree. BoP states it is the justicar or KotF who casts, and therefore suffers any perils, and should they die it then falls to a random member. The sergeant is the focus of the cast. I agree that in most instances the squad, even Mordrak with ghosts, can only cast one. Thawn is a different beast and i agree merits his own thread.