Mordrak lists

[boreas]

Well, I think we'll have to agree to disagree Hopefully, an answer will be provided sooner than later. Any official channel we should try? Maybe if enough people spam the question, someone at GW will listen if only in sheer annoyance

Maybe repost this in the general rules section, see what the B&C community as a whole comes up with?

edit: well, it's been asked and debated a few time. We actually presented similar arguments a while ago, you and me:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256928-justicar-thawn/page-2

:)

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm nothing if not consistent! :P

 

Or stubborn. ;)

[True_Hisop]

I think i can help clarify the rules here (this is how the GW judge explained them to me and my drago-wing army) this will be long but clear.

 

Page 124 (small rule-book)-  "when deploying armies players can chose not to deploy up to half of there units (rounding up) keeping them as reserves to arrive latter"

-i think were all clear on this if you have ten units 5 can be put in reserve.

 

(the next sentence 124)- "units that MUST start the game in reserve are ignored for the purpose of working out how many other units may do so"

- i think we all get that this doesn't apply to terminators but i wanted to add it anyway this is for drop pods flyers ect.

 

 

(GK codex pg 68) "they may always start the game in reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules, even if it is not part of the mission being played"

-what here is easily missed is that this is one sentence and as one sentence it is one rule not two, this exception refers to the fact that reserves is a mission special rule and just like night-fighting and mysterious objective isn't always used it just happens to be in all 6 of the missions in the core rule-book but not in ALL missions. so a terminator can always use the reserve rules even if lets say you were the defender in planetstrike who i believe do not get reserves normally.

 

in the (very long) deepstrike rule it talks about units that MUST be placed in reserve also.if any of you still disagree i urge you to bring it up with games workshop email or call them but you will get the same response,  that as you are not forced to you can only place 50% of your terminators in deep strike.

 

and to add to another point with drop pod reserve armies or any other army that is exempt from the rule the auto loosing is a rule (page 122 victory conditions) what your opponent failed to notice is that page 9 clearly states that a game turn is two player turns and thus loosing if you have no models on the board would only apply after a full game turn. for example if you went first and three drop pods with units came in and in his turn he killed all three pods and all three units you would lose as you would have nothing left at the end of the game turn.

 

 

Edit- to add my two cents as they do not have brotherhood of psykers nether thawn nor mordrak are affected by it and thus both cast powers individually despite being in the squad as they are not part of the "brootherhood of psykers" i would re-read the rule in the brb. And about as much the same for stealth the GK book clearly states that he is treated as an upgrade character for a unit of ghost knights while there is a ghost knight. and for grand strategy it sates clearly it cannot be used on an indipendant character witch he is. and if he is with ghost knights although not an ic anymore the rule also specifically forbids you from using it on ghost knight squads witch at that point he would be an upgrade character from and thus part of the unit meaning aside from being attached to a regular troop aka strike squad or a normal terminator squad he can never gain the benefit of grand strategy.

[Roma]

He is most certainly not an independant character.

[Grand Master Caloth]

Read his rules, Hisop. IC is nowhere to be seen. Because of the possibility of spawning ghosts, he cannot be an IC, as that would open a value sized can of headaches

[Gentlemanloser]

Aye, you attach Mordrak to a 50 man IG blob, and he spawns a Ghost Knight Terminator to attach to the blob...

 

Also;

 

 

 i would re-read the rule in the brb.

 

Why?  Codex trumps BRB.  You need to use the GK Codex version of the BoP rule.

 

 

what here is easily missed is that this is one sentence and as one sentence it is one rule not two, this exception refers to the fact that reserves is a mission special rule and just like night-fighting and mysterious objective isn't always used it just happens to be in all 6 of the missions in the core rule-book but not in ALL missions. so a terminator can always use the reserve rules even if lets say you were the defender in planetstrike who i believe do not get reserves normally.

 

That's not how the sentence works.

 

The first part is the rule, the second is a clarification or exception if you will (not the clause for the first part).  GK TDA may always start in reserves.  That's the rule.  This rule is clarified to even be in effect for any mission that might disallow the use of reserves.

 

But it's in effect always.  Even if the mission allows reserves.

[boreas]

Read his rules, Hisop. IC is nowhere to be seen. Because of the possibility of spawning ghosts, he cannot be an IC, as that would open a value sized can of headaches

I'm pretty sure the can is wide open... GL and me have been eating it's sour contents for a while We've also been making unmodified leadership test all that time.

[True_Hisop]

after re-reading the rule i see my mistake >.< yeah he doesn't have anything to do with the indipendant character rule silly me. and i believe that yes you could then use grand strategy on him.

 

what i would call into question is weather he can call bodyguards at all if he didn't take a unit of them as it talks about deploying them in coherency of his unit and that it may not take the squad past its maximum size, now i'm not fully convinced ether way to be honest on that one its just the more i re-read the rule the more the wording seemed odd to me if he was intended to spawn them when running solo.

 

and as for the TDA like i said call up Games Workshop i took a drago-wing to Throne of skulls last year and that's what they told me...

[Gentlemanloser]

 

what i would call into question is weather he can call bodyguards at all if he didn't take a unit of them as it talks about deploying them in coherency of his unit and that it may not take the squad past its maximum size, now i'm not fully convinced ether way to be honest on that one its just the more i re-read the rule the more the wording seemed odd to me if he was intended to spawn them when running solo.

 

Totally...  The auto summon on wound is lower down in the Ghostly Bodyguard rule.  You could make a case he doesn't auto summon if he doesn't start with a Unit.

 

His whole rules are a gigantic mess that really don't work well.

[True_Hisop]

i have to agree that they are definitely a mess...

[Grand Master Caloth]

I would seriously reconsider playing someone who tried to tell me he couldn't spawn if i didn't buy ghosts from the start. the intent is clear, in the fluff and rules. It casts their sportsmanship into serious doubt

[Gentlemanloser]

Is it clear?

 

The intent might be that the extra Ghost Knights spawn to replace those fallen protecting Mordrak.  And the Psychic Power that powers them doesn't coalesce *entirely*, if no 'bought' Ghost accompany him.

 

I try not to second guess the intention of the Developers.

[True_Hisop]

i would never prevent my opponent from using that rule i was simply pointing out the haziness of it believe me when i say i wouldn't be that anal >.<.

[Grand Master Caloth]

It isn't a psychic power, it just happens based on a roll

[True_Hisop]

yeah my confusion was from the wording of "mordrak's unit" but as i think it is probably just referring to him as a one man unit.

[Grand Master Caloth]

It is him, with or without ghosts

[jeffersonian000]

While GML and I don't see eye to eye on Mordrak, it can be argued that a unit if Ghost Knights must already exist for other Ghosts to spawn from a wound. It can be read either way, but it does seem as if the unit needs to be present.

 

As to Mordrak's unit status, per the first paragraph under Ghostly Bodyguard, it does state that as long as Ghost Knights are present, Mordrak acts as the unit's upgrade character. Note that it says "acts", as in counts as, as in he isn't yet he we still treat him as such. He also reverts to a signle-model unit if no Ghosts are present. Odd wording, but it does seem to imply that Ghost Knights are functionally "wargear", much like Fenrisian Wolves. Eg, we can purchase Ghost Knights if we take Mordrak, but when we do Mordrak "acts" as an "upgrade character" long as the "wargear" is present. In addition, the "wargear" has some special rules that benefit any models attached (including Mordrak), such as Stealth and BoP. Since Ghosts are effectively wargear, and Grand Strategy cannit be used on them, I would think the intent was that Mordrak also could not benefit from Grand Strategy; unfortunately, GW did not convey that in the rules.

 

On BoP, I do not agree that BoP restricts an attached PML model. No where in the BoP rules does it tell us PL models cannot follow their own PML rules, nor does PML tell us BoP overrides PML rules. As such, I would argue that the "wargear's" BoP special rules works exactly as the Nemesis Force Wespon rules tell us BoP works, as the actual rules under BoP does not effect PML models in any way other than via the NFW rules.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

Just to add, I wouldn't play it that Mordrak needs to have purchased a unit of Ghost Knights, to make the three potential ones from wounds spawn.

 

But I see and understand the issue with the way the rule is written.

 

And this isn't something we can easily wave away as correct one way or another, as it's just too vaguely written.

[Grand Master Caloth]

Oops, odd pre-post. My phone has now gone thru proper cleansing rituals to remove all demonic gremlins

[Grand Master Caloth]

You know, reading through it, it seems like they meant for him to be an IC... Wonder if that was an oops... but nothing in the rules stating he has to have the knights in order to spawn, but it also doesn't state "for each unsaved suffered", only whenever he takes a wound... seems if he loses three wounds in one phase, he might only get one roll... thoughts? (Ref page 40)

[boreas]

The way I read it, Mordrak alone can spawn knights. Even when alone, Mordrak is part of a unit (albeit a one-model unit), so a ghost knight can join that unit. I also read it that it's only one roll, no matter how many wounds he gets. If you place the working more directly, the phrase reads: Roll a d3 at the end of the phase whenever Mordrak suffers an unsaved wound. So any number of wounds can trigger that roll. A better wording would have been "Whenerver Mordrak suffers one or more...", but hey, it's GW and they are a model company :) If they had wanted a roll for each wound, they would have worded it "roll a d3 for each unsaved wound (model company...).

 

But you can still spawn both in the shooting and assault phase, though!

 

Mind you, is there any way to bestow a FnP on Mordrak? He could "save" unsaved wounds and thus spawn more termies :)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

You could attach a Red Hunter Terminator Librarian with Biomancy. If he rolls 'Endurance', you can get FNP and IWND. 

[DinoDoc]

You could attach a Red Hunter Terminator Librarian with Biomancy. If he rolls 'Endurance', you can get FNP and IWND. 

This is why I hate the Psychic Table. It's nothing but randomness for randomness sake.

[Gentlemanloser]

Boreas, that's just another exmaple of the bad language used in the codex, and folk rolling a single d6 for an entire squad hit by Cleansing Flame, and others rolling a d6 for each mini in the unit...

 

Edit: As far as I'm aware, FnP counts as a save, doesn't it?  Or is that leftover from 5th?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

This is why I hate the Psychic Table. It's nothing but randomness for randomness sake.

 

Agreed, along with random charge distance, it makes me want to scream everytime I see Fantasy 'lelsorandumb' in my 40k.