SM Tactical Squad loadouts

[Wayniac]

As a new player I am curious about the different heavy/special weapon loadouts for Tactical Marines and the viability of different combinations as a general take-all-comers approach.  When I last played it was the era of Lascannon/Plasma Guns but it seems as though this has changed with plasma having the "It Gets Hot" rule (which I remember being only for Chaos back in the day to represent older technology).  

 

Is there a general guide or similar for the different loadouts and their strengths/weaknesses?  I am primarily asking because I've chosen the Fire Angels (of the Badab War) as my Chapter and reading some of the fluff on them it states that (emphasis mine):

 

 

The Chapter prefers to largely rely on rigid and proven strategic doctrines within the Chapter as to the arming of their forces from which they seldom deviate save in unusual circumstances.  Examples of this standard panoply include a focus on regularly arming their Tactical squads with heavy bolters for fire support and melta weapons for close range anti-armour capability, while flamers see extensive use by their assault formations as a preferred anti-personnel weapon.

 

Since I prefer to stay fluffy in terms of army composition, this caught my eye as it basically tells me how to outfit Tactical squads... except that Heavy Bolter/Meltagun doesn't seem to be a really good choice as a general TAC army, at least not that I've seen (I tend to see it suggested Melta/Lascannon, Flamer/Multi-melta or the like), so I am torn between following the background or picking things that are more effective (leaning towards effectiveness as I do want to hopefully win some battles) but still staying true to the background for the chapter.

 

 

 

[JeffTibbetts]

I guess that depends if you're planning on combat squadding, in which case the combination doesn't matter very much. The general tone around here is that HB is not a good option, pretty much ever, but that's really up to you and your style. That fluff makes it pretty clear they tend to stick with those weapons, but that will funnel you into a play style. If you don't like it, don't sweat it. That's one line (albeit one of the only ones that describes your chapter) and you can take it or leave it. 

 

If you're pretty competitive, do what you need to to win. If you like fluffy armies, it's not like it's BAD, per se. 

[Black Cohort]

I will argue against the previous poster and say that I almost exclusively use flamer/ heavy bolter on tactical squads.  The 2 upgrades both reinforce what a tactical squad is good at, killing weak but plentiful enemies.  Gone are the days of vehicle parks where you needed a missile launcher or lascannon because half the time your only targets had an armour value.

[Wayniac]

I will argue against the previous poster and say that I almost exclusively use flamer/ heavy bolter on tactical squads.  The 2 upgrades both reinforce what a tactical squad is good at, killing weak but plentiful enemies.  Gone are the days of vehicle parks where you needed a missile launcher or lascannon because half the time your only targets had an armour value.

 

Is it?  I haven't played in some 12 years, so maybe in my mind I'm still stuck in the days of the "Rhino Rush" all mechanized army and the 6-man Las/Plas squads of doom (which thankfully you aren't allowed to do anymore) where you either blew the crap out of the enemy before they ever got to you, or got into CC as quickly as possible and destroyed them there.

[Black Cohort]

Anti-tank is still needed but rarely is an entire army mechanized these days, at least where I play.  I rarely field an army without an anti-tank devastator squad.  But I use Imperial Fist chapter tactics which makes both bolt weapons and devastators better.

[Stickeh]

The latest codex doesn't force you into taking both a heavy and special weapon, unlike the previous one. It could be argued that you pay a tax in 10 man squads in order to field both, but with tactical marines being fairly cheap now I don't think this holds up.

 

For me tactical squads are all about their scoring ability, and I always play aggressively with my objectives. Heavy weapons don't synergise well with this and so I choose not to take them, putting the points saved into rhino's and combi weapons for sergeants that match with the special. Plasma and combi plasma is my go to, providing the ability to threaten light vehicles, TEQ and MC's. The range also matches up with boltguns, meaning firepower is rarely wasted.

 

Edit: typo fix

[Excubitor]

From this

 

The Chapter prefers to largely rely on rigid and proven strategic doctrines within the Chapter as to the arming of their forces from which they seldom deviate save in unusual circumstances.  Examples of this standard panoply include a focus on regularly arming their Tactical squads with heavy bolters for fire support and melta weapons for close range anti-armour capability, while flamers see extensive use by their assault formations as a preferred anti-personnel weapon.

 

I get that their main weapons are the Heavy Bolter, Flamer, Multi-melta, and Meltagun. Therefore loadouts of Heavy Bolter/Flamer and Multi-melta/meltagun fit, or just the specials, with combi-weapons on the sergeant to flavour.

 

If I recall right Tarnus Vale is the Fire Angel character in the Badab books, in which case you'll want to run a mech list if you take him (5++ to Rhino, razor and Land Raider and tank hunters to his vehicle is nice) as well as figure out how to run it with the UM Chapter Tactics.

 

Also, to point - Heavy bolters are a cheap as chips upgrade for tacticals, and even when moving can snap-fire. If you need the points elsewhere then fine, drop them, but I've never regretted spending those points on it even when the squad has moved every turn of the game.

[Wayniac]

I don't plan on fielding Tarnus as I'm doing a different Fire Angels company (Tarnus is 3rd Company captain but the chapter committed seven companies as I recall) but I do like the idea of the mechanized army even if the old "Rhino Rush" is outdated - it's very fluffy :)

 

Right now with limited figures I am going missile launcher/plasma but I think I will plan enough extras to make various weapon configurations and may give the melta/hbolter a try to see how it works. I'm not an ultra competitive player (never was) and I like the fluff and being true to the army more than min/maxing or having a beardy/cheesy list designed to simply win.

[Black Cohort]

going all mech can be good because it isn't the standard anymore.  Sometimes being really far from the meta can actually be good.

[Excubitor]

In a 2k list, just to try it out, I tried Tarnus with a Lascannon LR, a Redeemer, and a half-company in rhino/razorback transports. He stayed in the lascannon LR and provided really good fire support, while the redeemer just went forward as fast as it could and got into Flamestorm range ASAP. The 5++ is golden, really ups the survivability of the vehicles. I rate it better than the IH CT for keeping Rhino/razorbacks alive (as it works with every shot, not just at the end of the turn). I want to try this with Chronus in a Pred at some point - more tough vehicles!

 

Plus, Tarnus has the Storm of Fire warlord trait - if you do want to advance him up, take a sternguard squad for a turn of real hurt!

 

I agree with the fluff over competitive, it's your army do what makes it fun for you. Good thing with the UM CT there's plenty of choice for characters, and it supports loads of list types.

[DarkGuard]

With you no longer being enforced to take 10 man units to get special and heavy weapons, and with those weapons now being more expensive, there's no reason to feel compelled to take both in one unit. I prefer taking just a special and combi in larger, Rhino mounted units, while smaller units that hang back take just a heavy weapon.

 

I've had some success with the following loadout, bearing what I've said:

 

2x 10 man units with combi-plasma, plasma gun and Rhino

2x 5 man units with plasma cannon/lascannon/missile launcher

 

If you want to go with two weapons on one unit, I'd go with the missile launcher as the heavy. Cheaper than most others, it's also very versatile, and of course opens up the option for AA if you feel you need it.

[VoteForPedro]

My views on this are somewhat influenced by how I tend to play and that is primarily using Sentinels of Terra Chapter Tactics and Drop Pods.

 

That aside, my core view and most important consideration when it comes to equipping Tactical Squads is as follows: Don't waste the majority of the unit.

 

By that I mean don't have 8 guys with Bolters looking on while a single Multimelta/ Meltagun fire at a tank. While cheaper than in the last codex Tac Marines are still an investment, use their equipment to the best of your abilities and you'll get the best out of them. With that in mind I tend to equip my squads as follows:

 

10 man, Drop Pod

Flamer, Heavy Bolter

Combi Flamer and Melta Bomb on Sergeant

 

or

 

10 man, Drop Pod

Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter,

Combi Plasma and Melta Bomb on Sergeant

 

Both are anti infantry focussed which ensures the Bolters are being used. I leave Sternguard, Devastators (Tank Hunting Lascannons rock) and Stormtalons to deal with my anti tank. In a pinch a Melta Bomb can help out but that's basically cheap backup. This is quite a departure from how I ran them in 5th (as anti tank as possible) and probably reflects how armies are changing but it works out well for me.

 

Heavy Bolters are chosen because, even with snap shots, Sentinels of Terra twin linking helps to hit. I could drop them entirely but I don't consider their price to be wasted points, they may well get to fire later in the battle, especially if I have to drop far from the opponent or deploy on foot. 

[Kaedes Nex]

These are all the combos I feel are really good:

 

5 or 10 marines, 1 Flamer, 1 Combi-Flamer (optional)

5 or 10 marines, 1 Melta Gun, 1 Combi-Melta (optional)

5 or 10 marines, 1 Plasma Gun, 1 Combi-Plasma (optional)

5 marines, 1 Lascannon

5 marines, 1 special weapon, 1 Lascannon (Black Templars only)

10 marines, 1 Melta Gun, 1 Multi-Melta, 1 Combi-Melta (optional)

10 marines, 1 Plasma Gun, 1 Combi-Plasma, 1 Combi-Plasma (optional)

10 marines, 1 special weapon, 1 Lascannon, 1 Combi-Bolter (optional)

 

Optional Melta Bombs on all setups.

[Rumour Control]

I dont play codex lists very often, nearly always one of the forge world lists from the badab books but on the odd occasion since the new codex came out i havent bothered with heavy weapons at all, rarely a special weapon. I just cant see the point in them having both special and heavy. Sergeant has chainsword, melta bombs. Thats it. Cheap and disposable im afraid for me when it comes to tactical squads, hold objectives and give supporting fire.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The question with mixing heavy and special weapons is whether or not the unit is intended to Combat Squad.  If not, then the heavy weapon choice should -- in my opinion, of course -- in some way synergize with the special weapon (and combi-weapon, if coughwhencough taken).  A plasma gun, combi-plasma, and multimelta is a good weapon mix because all three weapons have similar ranges and target profiles (excepting AV14), and this remains my classic example of the point I'm trying to make.  Taking a flamer, a meltagun, and a missile launcher with flakk missiles is a horrible set up because none of the weapons particularly wants to fire at the same target each turn, which confuses your target priority.

 

Now obviously, the one confounding issue with my concept is that heavy weapons in most cases outrange -- often drastically -- the special weapon choices.  As long as the squad is in some way mobile, be it via Rhino or drop pod, this actually isn't that big of an issue.  If the squad is mobile enough, or well-positioned enough, that it can bring both the specials and the heavy to bear on a target, then the range obviously isn't a problem.  Of greater concern is that both weapons are geared for a particularly target.

[Daevyll]

Isnt that a bit theoretical? Of course you are right if you say that having mixed type weapons means that half of your investment will be ineffectual, but only if they always have the right targets available. A flamer and heavy bolter might be complementary, but hardly useful if faced with a Leman Russ. Conversely a Lascannon and meltagun wont put much of a dent in a Gaunt horde. 

 

If you have one of each type, you will never have full effect but neither will your squad be completely useless. Think of it as a guaranteed 50% versus a coin-toss between 0% and 100%.

Since tacticals, for me, are all about versatility and not specialisation, I tend to deliberately mix weapon types (and why I also really like missile launchers).

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Thank you for proving my point about confusing your own firing priority.  You should have dedicated tank hunters -- Devastators, Predator, Storm-whatevers, podding Sternguard -- to deal with things like Leman Russes.

[Daevyll]

Posts starting with 'thank you for proving my point' signal the end of any meaningful conversation.

[Cornelias]

Isnt that a bit theoretical? Of course you are right if you say that having mixed type weapons means that half of your investment will be ineffectual, but only if they always have the right targets available. A flamer and heavy bolter might be complementary, but hardly useful if faced with a Leman Russ. Conversely a Lascannon and meltagun wont put much of a dent in a Gaunt horde. 

 

If you have one of each type, you will never have full effect but neither will your squad be completely useless. Think of it as a guaranteed 50% versus a coin-toss between 0% and 100%.

Since tacticals, for me, are all about versatility and not specialisation, I tend to deliberately mix weapon types (and why I also really like missile launchers).

 

 

I completely agree with you, it's all very well talking about target priority but there are many situations where you are forced to target what's in front of you and it's not always possible to fire at your ideal target.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

....no, that's you giving up on proper target prioritization.

[VoteForPedro]

If you have one of each type, you will never have full effect but neither will your squad be completely useless. Think of it as a guaranteed 50% versus a coin-toss between 0% and 100%.

Since tacticals, for me, are all about versatility and not specialisation, I tend to deliberately mix weapon types (and why I also really like missile launchers).

 

I can see where you are coming from but doesn't it eat you up seeing 9 Tactical Marines do essentially nothing for a turn or more? Imperial Guard can get away with viewing their troops (especially Veterans) as a tax to get special weapons, I don't believe we can. If I'm running Tactical Marines I want them to accomplish more than simply scoring and firing one Missile Launcher at a vehicle doesn't cut the mustard most of the time.

 

Ideally I prefer to dedicate my Tactical Marines to anti infantry as their Bolters lean in that direction anyway and then, as Deus Ex Ferrum mention, rely on other parts of my force for anti tank, in my case Lascannon Devs, Stormtalons, Melta Sternguard etc.

[Daevyll]

 

If you have one of each type, you will never have full effect but neither will your squad be completely useless. Think of it as a guaranteed 50% versus a coin-toss between 0% and 100%.

Since tacticals, for me, are all about versatility and not specialisation, I tend to deliberately mix weapon types (and why I also really like missile launchers).

 

I can see where you are coming from but doesn't it eat you up seeing 9 Tactical Marines do essentially nothing for a turn or more? Imperial Guard can get away with viewing their troops (especially Veterans) as a tax to get special weapons, I don't believe we can. If I'm running Tactical Marines I want them to accomplish more than simply scoring and firing one Missile Launcher at a vehicle doesn't cut the mustard most of the time.

 

Ideally I prefer to dedicate my Tactical Marines to anti infantry as their Bolters lean in that direction anyway and then, as Deus Ex Ferrum mention, rely on other parts of my force for anti tank, in my case Lascannon Devs, Stormtalons, Melta Sternguard etc.

 

In a typical game, for me at least, I have units which are trying to achieve my objectives and I have units trying to stop my enemy from achieving his objectives. 

My objective-takers tend to be more specialized, since I know roughly what they will be doing. My reactionary forces will be more allround, since I usually don't know what my opponent will be taking or doing, so I need to plan for eventualities.

So yes, that meltagun on a home objective camping unit might very well be wasted if no enemies enter within range, but then again if no units enter its range then the unit has accomplished its objective so I cant really complain.

 

In general, I think the whole specialisation debate boils down to efficiency vs adaptability. A specialised force will be more efficient, but less able to react to different circumstances. It will tend to either win spectacularly or lose spectacularly. I prefer the other option, but to each his own, it's just a matter of how you like to play most in the end.

[Stickeh]

Another point to consider is that having tank busting weapons in your tac squads, as opposed to relying on dedicated units to do the heavy lifting, can increase threat saturation and mess with your opponents target priority.

[Fibonacci]

 If you have one of each type, you will never have full effect but neither will your squad be completely useless. Think of it as a guaranteed 50% versus a coin-toss between 0% and 100%.

I'll take a possible 100% that needs planning to use correctly over a maximum capped at 50% that gets plopped down anywhere. 

 

They are both valid options.  It depends on how you play.    If you do not have the mobility (or range) to put the right troops against their best targets then spreading the weapons around is what you need to do.  I like to stay as mobile as possible and specialize my units.

[Excubitor]

I tend to use Missile Launchers and Plasma Cannons for heavies with plasma guns and flamers for specials in my tacticals. That gives me all the dual use I need. I use Melta bombs, MM attack bikes and Lascannons for heavy anti-AT work. Since they work against anything except for Land Raiders and Monoliths (which are rare locally) they are fine against the odd armoured target that shows up (and the plasma works well against terminators/MC, which do show up a fair bit).

 

Of course I have other loadouts I run with depending on the rest of the army. Those are just the most common choices.