marvmoogy Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 @Master Sheol - I agree completely re: the Codex and the flyers' intended purposes, but the point I raised was simply that it can be good for something. EG, if you're in a small point battle, (say up to 750 points) it is often the case that opponents don't expect a flyer and aren't suitably prepared for one. At 180 points, it may not be cheap, but it will certainly be pretty much unmolested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Thank you brothers, thank you Master Sheol, this is good argument and I will use it as I would love myself to use several things besides Mortis dreadnought, Caestus ram for terminators etc. MayorDaley, in which imperial armour do I find these nasty weapons you have mentioned? The best is IA : aeronautica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Thank you brothers, thank you Master Sheol, this is good argument and I will use it as I would love myself to use several things besides Mortis dreadnought, Caestus ram for terminators etc. MayorDaley, in which imperial armour do I find these nasty weapons you have mentioned? The best is IA : aeronautica Great book. My only beef is that the Imperial Navy units are only available to the IG. This not only shafts other imperial lists, it suggests falsely that the navy is part of or subordinate to the guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MayorDaley Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Hyperios Missile Platform (IA: Aeronautica, ???) Danger level: airplanes go home At 35pts each for independent Missile Launchers, these would be pretty okay even if they didn't have much else- Skyfire/Intercept is the icing on the cake. Squads of up to three help insure they can do their job and while they're a bit more fragile than regular artillery, they also never fail morale and run away. They come in the FA slot, which normally gets used for Stormtalons to do the same thing (or, in the case ofSW/DA/BA, gets left empty because it's sup-par), but they are a pretty easy replacement. BS3 is fine because you're twin-linked AND can reroll misses against flyers- thanks, Forge World! Seriously, though, there's no real excuse not to be taking at least one unit of these. This was all quoted from Kirby's 3++. Check out his blog. My buddy runs the HMPs all the time, and I can tell you that they are SUPER annoying! Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvmoogy Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 BS3 is fine because you're twin-linked AND can reroll misses against flyers How come they get to re-roll a re-roll? I thought you could only ever re-roll once? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Still, 75% chance to it is pretty good. Not as good as TLLC Mortis but still good. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValourousHeart Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 I have to point out that Flakk Devs are not are only AA choice. This site should be an educational source for new players to the 40k verse and the DA codex. Please don't spread false information with your hate posts. Our AA options are in order of effectivness vs AV12 Flyers 1. RWSS - 5 Typhoons (equal to 5 Flakk ML) 2. 6 RWBK 3. Nephilim Fighter (LC) 4. 4 Flakk ML Now this list does not include any of the fortifications that we have access to or the fact that we can buff any of these options (except RWBK) with a Div Lib. I would also like to point out that the effectivness of all of these options is very close with a difference of 0.11%... or the effectivness of a single Flakk missile between the least effective (4 Flakk) and most effective (5 Typhoons). Now to get that effectivness in a single unit (5 typhoons) you have to spend twice the points of any of the other options. So statistically 2 Nephilim or 2 squads of 6 dev with 4 Flakk ML each is a better investment than 5 typhoons. Our biggest issue has nothing to do with our codex... C:SM, C:IG and C:CSM each have a flyer that is just too good for the cost. A lot of us get confused about where the balance point in this game is... we start to think that space marines are average... they are not, they are exceptional. IG are average from a mechanics POV. From that same perspective, we should not look at the dragon, storm raven and vendetta and think that is what all flyers should be like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyro X Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Typhoons can not have flakl missiles. Krak or frag only. We only have flakk on normal ml. Are you saying with div reolling in a squad of 5 typhoons or the typhoons from ras. I may have misread what u meant because its early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValourousHeart Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Oh I see where you thought I said that..... What I meant by that note was that 10 krak missles has the same percent chance to damage an AV 12 flyer as 5 flak missles. My notes were back from when everyone was saying that our only good AA option was the typhoon. And I only ran the options for the pure squad, no in-game mods. I used the flak missile as a benchmark to compare the effectiveness of the other options. So it was 1 round of shooting at full strength for each unit. I love speeders but I personally would never field 5 speeders in a single unit. Being the cost a tooled up TDA squad, but as vulnerable as 5 scouts out in the open. But in this example it is a RWSS with 5 speeders, just to show the maximum potential of the unit. What was interesting is that 1 TLLC has the same chance to remove a HP as 4 flak missiles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 VH, Those are not the only options...not by a long shot. A lascannon devastator squad with an attached PFG-toting librarian with the prescience power is a staple in my green lists. That unit is actually intended to blow tanks off the board, but it averages more than one S9 hit per turn against fliers. That's not an air defense option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValourousHeart Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 March10K, You are correct, I didn't run an exhaustive study of every option, nor for every target. I focused on the main units that were being brought up in the conversation, and I only compared it vs the stormraven. The Dragon just has to many active and passive defenses that all AA options look like crap when that is considered the benchmark. The results vs the strormraven aren't much better but at least they are not comical. If someone wants to run that exhaustive study... more power to them... but the results probably won't change my list. The conversation that my 10 min of calculations is from was about how much the Nephilim sucked and was supposedly the worst AA option in our codex. It wasn't, not by a long shot. The least effective unit is actually the Dev squad, however that was also the least expensive. Now adding the Librarian to the mix is another unit that could potentially buff any unit, so saying that a dev squad with lib is better than 5 typhoons is miss leading. In truth your list would have a Lib, dev and 5 speeder... and then at the oportune moment the Lib would buff the unit that was in the best position to deal the coup de grâce. I know that you are a good player, so I don't assume that you would be dogmatic and only buff the dev squad targeting a razorback and not buff the speeders targeting a deathstar. But as I said that these numbers were from a conversation about how to deal with AV12 flyers, finding the unit that everyone should bring to the next tournament wasn't the goal. My goal was to cut the BS and B'ing and find out what AA options we have and how they compare to one another. The 4 LC dev squad will probably perform slightly better than 4 flak missiles, but not as good as 10 krak missiles (or 5 flak missiles). And as I said the buff from the lib is really an in-game effect that might not go off, but could be used on any option not already twin linked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyro X Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 I'd never really thought about running 5 typhoons in a unit before. I could see how having a lib to buff would be really good. You could even think about a darkshroud to keep them alive a little bit longer, maybe deep strike them in, really mobile @ 375 its alot of fire power for sure, but 10 hull points at AV 10 (granted it has jink). The unit sounds like a glass cannon. I do want to try it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypherthefallenangel Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 I decided to run the numbers of the average amount of hull points removed vs AV12 fliers for 1 round of shooting. I've included some non DA stuff to show how they compare. These numbers don't factor in evasion saves or invul saves. Nephilim with TLLC= .76 Nephilim with bolter= .73 Dev squad with flak= .87 Quad gun or dev with prescience= 1.10 5 typhoons= .8 5 typhoons with prescience= 1.5 AC mortis= 1.10 TLLC mortis= 1.11 6x BKs in rapid fire range= 1.18 6x BKs single shots= .59 Vendetta= 1.48 SR with TLLC,TLMM, and 3 bloodstrikes= 1.96 SR with TLLC, typhoon, and 3 bloodstrikes= 2.2 Hell Chicken with flamer assuming 4xVS hits= 1.32 Hell chicken with autocannons = 1.0 Icarus lascannon bs4= .43 Icarus lascannon bs2= .22 Mortis Contemptor with k-assault cannons, CML= 3.57 Mortis Contemptor with k-assault cannons, CML with prescience= 4.31 Mortis Contemptor with TLLC, CML= 1.81 Mortis Contemptor with TLLC, CML and prescience= 2.02 IG Hydra ea.= .99 (ignore cover) IG Manticor ”sky eagle rockets”= .49 IG Preator(SH)= .75 Edited to add more units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Are we really counting heavy/high Str weapons firing snap shots as actual anti-air options? You wouldn't count on overwatch to wipe out significant numbers of a charging squad. I'd say you could turn to any BS1 shooting unit as an AA option when they absolutely had nothing else worthwhile to shoot at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TA]Typher Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 I decided to run the numbers of the average amount of hull points removed vs AV12 fliers for 1 round of shooting. I've included some non DA stuff to show how they compare. These numbers don't factor in evasion saves or invul saves. Mortis Contemptor with k-assault cannons, CML= 3.57 Yes plz. Prescience cast on it would make this even better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 What about TLLC/CML Mortis Contemptable? Also doesn't factor in range and pens, still very helpful thanks ctfa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Yeah pens and glances are pretty important when it comes to fliers. Weapon destroyed, immobilized (locked velocity), and explodes are pretty significant results when talking about fliers. Something that AP 2 really increases your chances of getting. How are you deriving these numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypherthefallenangel Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 The math is pretty simple. (#of shots) x (bs(ie, bs4 is .66)) x (chance to glance/pen AV12(ie, S9+D6=.66)) for example. A IG hydra has 4 shots,@S7, twin-linked BS3= 4 x .75 x .33= .99 Yah I was trying to keep it from becoming a confusing wall of numbers so I only factored in the chance of glancing/penning. It should go with out saying that AP1/AP2 have better damage potential. Now I only play DA, IG, BA,and CSM so thats all I can contribute to the list. If there are any Tau or eldar players here it would be great to include them into the comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebukkuk Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 There's another option I've been toying with: take a Vendetta squadron as allies from the IG codex, but use the Nephilim models to represent them. Extra twin-linked lascannons are plentiful in any good Space Marine bit box and can be easily magnetized to swap out with the Blacksword missiles if needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 T'ha mathammer Here is interesting but you should condider cost and range too... For example at 48" range a TLLC mortis contemptir is way better t'han a KAC one... About the AA options you should consider the firestoem redoubt too... Two Quad icarus LC at BS2 that can be upgraded to BS3 according to the Stronghols Assault book... With 72" range 4 TL shots at BS3 S9 AP2 are very good against flyers... Considering they are mounted on a AV14 bunker too (that can protect a sentire Squad giving it up to 6 models the chance to shoit from its fire points... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 T'ha mathammer Here is interesting but you should condider cost and range too... For example at 48" range a TLLC mortis contemptir is way better t'han a KAC one... About the AA options you should consider the firestoem redoubt too... Two Quad icarus LC at BS2 that can be upgraded to BS3 according to the Stronghols Assault book... With 72" range 4 TL shots at BS3 S9 AP2 are very good against flyers... Considering they are mounted on a AV14 bunker too (that can protect a sentire Squad giving it up to 6 models the chance to shoit from its fire points... The only concern I have with this latter solution is how stronghold assault fits in the game meta? I mean it is unclear to me (though owning the book) to say if stronghold assault is another type of 40k game that needs agreement of both players before playing (like Apoc or urban fight) or if it's simply new additions of units usable during a standard 40k game... Or both! Because if it's the first solution, it limits your redoubt solution to a certain type of games... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Stronghold Assault is BOTH... The first part of the book updates the rules and the profiles of fortifications in the BRB and adds the new group of fortifications (each group taking a fortification slot)... Then there is a section about siege warfare containing three special missions where the attacker has 4 HS slots and the defender 3 fortification slots... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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