The one thing I've never liked about Chaos...

[Wayniac]

Is the fact that the miniatures have always looked like WHFB Chaos Warriors with guns to me.  All the horns and spiky bits and things just seem like overkill; I get that they wanted to make them look distinct from loyalist Space Marines, but when I think of the Traitor Legions in general I think more dark and archaic-looking Space Marines, like they've actually existed for over 10,000 years and are a reminder of the dark past of the Imperium.  

 

I'd rather see them with more of a Heresy-era look to them, like being mostly in MkIV "Maximus" armor (as I recall, most of the Traitor Legions were entirely outfitted in MkIV armor when the Heresy erupted), using more of the older-looking weaponry as opposed to the sleeker, cleaner loyalist Marine armament, and less on the "Rawr we're evil!  Look at the spikes and skulls I have to prove it!  Rawr!" kind of vibe that they currently have.  In my mind at least the way I envision a Chaos incursion happening is that there is this Imperial world that's out there and hasn't had much contact with Space Marines, but have their legends of "great warriors from the sky" passed down from generation to generation, so the Chaos guys show up and hey they look like the legends, and the Chaos Marines are all like "Oh yeah, that's totally us.  Hey why don't you use your resources to help us out." and subvert the world because the regular people don't know the difference between a traitor marine and a loyalist marine, just their legends of the past and these guys in armor fit that description; that idea loses a lot of its credibility (in my mind, again) when the big guys in armor all have spikes and horns and other things on their armor because that doesn't sound very trustworthy now does it?

 

I just wish the Forgeworld Heresy-era kits weren't so insanely expensive (like $280 for 30 MkIV Tacticals?!), because personally I'd love to do up a Traitor Legion army that actually LOOKS like they came from the 31st millennium with less emphasis on the spikes/horns/evil stereotypes.

[nurglez]

I guess the excuse is, when you spend time in the eye of terror you grow horny :rolleyes:

 

You can always use a majority of space marine kits, and the non spiky helms, and say you are recently renegade.

[Brother Captain Sirus]

Technically both your idea and current kits are correct. Older legions from heresay earlier have been known to refit in new armour as they broke theirs. Other have been created with stolen geneseed so need newer armour and other have recently turned to chaos so wear new armour marks with no real spikey bits. Chaos = kitbash what you likeand paint it in a way thats awesome and have no aquilas or imperial icons, just remember to put something on them to make them look like they have joined chaos atleast, chain loincloths or something would do the trick or something to that flavour.

 

The current models are more for clear indication of that they are chaos not just loyalists being used as a stand in (or the alpha legions dess up as a random legion party).

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

If you put a chaos marine next to a loyalist marine next to a warrior of chaos, the similarity will be between the chaos and the loyalist. I too would love to see more of an eldrich look to some of the kits for sure. like evil Blood Angels. But choas marines are not the only ones who have lived for centuries you know!!

 

My only gripe would be a lack of distinction between different legions (not gods) within the model line.

 

End of Line

[Forté]

I guess the excuse is, when you spend time in the eye of terror you grow horny :rolleyes:

Especially with the Dark Prince ;)

 

End of the day, like has already been suggested, kitbash. Chaos for GW has a style involving arrows and spikes so they run it across all their systems.

[Sception]

If you want your models to look like unadorned heresy marines, then buy those models from forgeworld.

 

What you're missing though is the supernatural nature of places where the warp and the material world overlap, like the eye of terror or the maelstrom or any of the other massive warp storms within which the chaos legions have been able to establish and maintain control since the Heresy.

 

In these places, the distinctions between the real and the unreal, between concept and reality, between form and function - they blend and blur and even at times completely break down. Lightning can be forged like steel, metal flows like smoke. Physical objects associated with the champions of chaos - their weapons, their armor, even their bodies themselves, change and warp and grow and evolve. Weapons for killing grow fangs and teeth. Armor grows chitinous plates and horns, and fuses with the warrior who wears it until they are one inseparable creature. Lesser warp spirits are drawn to the violence, bloodshed, and sheer, terrible willpower of the chaos marines, and become trapped within their equipment, further mutating their form. The warriors themselves change and grow, taking on outward forms that reflect their inner natures, and the sigils, signs, and runes of their dark patrons manifest on their flesh and war gear, branding them as the dark gods' favored vessels - whether the warrior in question chooses to worship those patrons or not. Tenticles and toothy maws burst from the armored surfaces, pistons and hydrolics take on the appearance of fleshy muscles, leering daemonic faces press their way to the surface, eyes blink open to stare in all directions, balefire bursts from the warriors' mouths as they speak, strange alien starlight glows beneath their skin...

 

For those who choose or are forced to make their home within the Eye, the Maelstrom, or any similar warp phenomena, the powers of chaos are not some trivial concept. The gods are not something they can simply choose to ignore. For the chaos marines, the will of the gods defines the physical laws of their reality, choosing to worship them or reject them has no more baring on the reality of their will than would praying to or refusing to believe in gravity in the material universe. Within the Eye, the very air breathes the names of the gods into the lungs of their champions, the light itself bends and twists to cast visions of the gods into their eyes. The Chaos Marines aren't just ancient soldiers from a darker, half-forgotten age. After ten thousand years without the shield of faith in the Emperor, ten thousand years of walking the blasted madness of Chaos, they have become the immortal warrior kings of the dark gods, their chosen champions - flesh and blood avatars to carry the will of the gods deep into the material realm, where their daemonic servants cannot reach.

 

 

All of this is what it means to be a Chaos marine, not merely a renegade or heretic, and I personally love most those chaos marine models that most reflect their awful, exalted nature, as best exemplified to date by the Dark Vengeance chosen.

[Wayniac]

malisteen that's a great way of putting it!  I guess I've always enjoyed the HH fluff most of all about 40k and the idea of the traitor legions as corrupted renegade Space Marines versus the whole dark power of chaos warping things and reality-breaking nature of the Warp itself, which always seemed a bit too like a perverse Wonderland or like a bad acid trip (I forget where I read it and it's been a long time since but it was something about how weird daemon worlds are, where rivers of lava can flow upwards and the ground is like glass and assorted oddities like that)

[Rasclomalum]

There is enough fluff around to accomodate all styles of modelling for Chaos really. Whether you go with loyalist marines with just a hint of chaos worship here and there (in case of some warbands, it might even be justifiable to retain the aquila if scraping it off worries you, EC and Alpha Legion + descendants could certainly pull that off without hassle, and if you make a custom warband that wears the aquila out of ironic pride, go for it) or go the full hog and make all of them halfway possessed with more spikes on them than a bush of thorns, it's fine either way. 

[Brother Heinrich]

who says traitor legions don't use old armor marks? 

 

http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q532/mv8830/Night%20Lords%20II/3126fc6a-048b-4c89-836a-395a4f47d033_zps22d7f417.jpg

 

I gave up long ago expecting GW to make perfect kits that truly capture the fluff accurately for the myriad thousand different ways that chaos affects those who have fallen. "Chaos Space Marines" literally run the range from guys who have mk.7 Aquila armor with their chapter icon crossed out, to 10,000 year old Slaanesh-devoted Emperor's Children who look like a writhing mass of tentacles, horns and leather straps. There's no way GW can possibly hope to cover all the bases and make every hobbyist happy with how they interpret Chaos Marines.

 

That is the principle reason Chaos has been a long-time bastion for converters, there is such a range of possibilities and individualism, even within each warband. 

 

Also as far as your vision goes, it sounds totally like something the Alpha Legion would do and probably has. Which doesn't make it any less credible than the guy who makes Nurgle Bikers who have practically become one festering entity with their bikes. Thats the nature of the warp, some guys skirt around it with a ten foot pole and try to avoid corruption, others dive in at the deep end. Trying to argue the "right" interpretation of Chaos Marines is a fools errand because just about everyone's view is right. Just model what makes you happy and fits your vision. Also if you don't want to buy the FW kits, there are tons of tutorials floating around for making your own heresy marks using green stuff and kitbashing that will pull of the effect nicely. 

 

Cheers.

[Xenith]

Great words, Heinrich.

[the jeske]

I don't like too busy models in general . Battle dmg , some striking detail [chain skirts , cool motif shoulderguards etc] are ok , but full on mutations and fidly little spikes everywhere are totaly not my thing . The best helmet for coversion [where best is cheapest to get easily] is the zerker helmet. +ears =zerker. no earns good ironwarrior helmet . A few years ago I made some zerker helmets [no ears] with mahowks looked very nice . The new style armors we get nowadays on raptors are totaly not my thinkg. But I don't like the too busy loyalist armors either.

[Midnightmare]

I love the DV chosen, so I am basing my Black Legion on their 'style' - properly chaos corrupted visions of the former selves, positively oozing malice and the promise 10,000yrs worth of hatred and death. How I acheive this I am unsure, currently experimenting with kit bashing the chosen with the GW Raptor kits and FW offerings, which I a pretty pleased with so far.

[Pariah Mk.231]

We seem to have very different preferences regarding the aesthetics of Chaos. Personally, I wish the lines between 40k/Fantasy Chaos were blurred even more, like back in Rogue Trader days.

 

However, I do acknowledge that it's not appropriate for all traitors. Iron Warriors, Night Lords and Alpha Legion make much more sense with much less warp influence, and I would see them remain as such.

[Forté]

I just like that people have so many different ideas on how Chaos should look. And there's plenty of people kitbashing and converting to create their vision. Imperial Marines are pretty much as they come which can get a bit plain and boring. Want a chaos marine with four arms, tail and a two foot long tongue...fair play.

[Sception]

 

However, I do acknowledge that it's not appropriate for all traitors. Iron Warriors, Night Lords and Alpha Legion make much more sense with much less warp influence, and I would see them remain as such.

See, this is what I disagree with, with the exception of Alpha Legion, maybe. Because when you live in the Eye of Terror, the amount of influence that the warping effect of chaos has over you is no more dependant on you worship of chaos than the effect of gravity on you is dependant on your worship of Isaac Newton in the material universe. Being mutated by chaos is not a side effect of worshipping it, it's a side effect of being exposed to it, and the night lords and iron warriors have been exposed to it for ten thousand years.

[Rasclomalum]

Not all mutations have to enter Urotsukidoji territory though. In the Word Bearers trilogy there is a Possessed Chaos Marine called Burias Drak'Shal who only allows his inner daemon to emerge when needed in combat, otherwise his physical appearance is impeccable. Many of the Word Bearers have been around for 10,000 years and apart from some having developed sharp fangs or beginning to find their armour difficult to remove, they still appear pretty much human. Warp influence could be many different things, a foot emerging from your forehead isn't necessarily what the Chaos Gods have in store for you.

[Forté]

Even in Betrayer on of the Word Bearers is already heavily corrupted.

 

It would also come down to the are of the equipment and their style of worship. A D-B's main Night Lords characters are mostly in armour which has been scavenged and it shows little corruption at all. Yet, if they had that same equipment on the warp and had been actively worshipping the Chaos Gods then it would be likely to change over time.

[Tenebris]

Considering the WD article when the "new" Chaos Space Marines have been released and the look of the Dark Vengeance models it is clear where GW is going with the CSM miniatures range. I think in time we will see the plain old look slowly drift away to make space for a more organic, sinister and corrupted look.

 

I favor this line of development for if you look the old CSM kit it was mostly loyalist marines + spikey bitz and some horns on helmets which they really looked like the old Chaos Warriors look from Fantasy, which is wrong I dare say.

 

My personal opinion is that Chaos and Chaos Space Marine in general should shed their loyalist roots and come forward as a sinister, corrupted force, the majesty of the astartes twisted into an unrecognizable form, with horns, living flesh, arcane tokens and baroque weapons. Chaos is individuality made manifest, not two marines are alike, no clear distinctions of battle plate marks can be made. There are hundreds of forge worlds in the Eye that churn out power armor and weapons, thousands more models of plate have been looted, consecrated to the Dark Gods and mutated eventually, without counting on the plate that it is worn by Heresy era veterans which lost all semblance of mark and origin when it is bonded with their flesh and exposed to the mutagen power of Chaos.

 

Everything should be twisted, baroque and screaming of unholy power. I think that after Istvaan V the Legions are finally free of the grasp of the Imperium and the warriors become individuals again, each one embellishing his armor with icons of devotion to their newfound Dark Patrons, each one openly now declaring his faith and allegiance. To even consider the astartes plate in HH era terms when we speak of M41 it is a bit wrong for those very same warriors have been living in hell ever since the Battle of Terra and no one was spared the touch of Chaos. It can be an eye on your belt, horns sprouting from your forehead, twisted hooks of flesh and bone on your forearm or even cloven hooves... hell even the bolter you wielded so faithfully during the Great Crusade onward into the Horus Heresy has now a dark aura, a sentience or a will on its own and it is probably now as much part of yourself as are the horns and the tail you have.

 

Chaos is the very definition of change, it begins with a small Chaos Star scraped into your shoulder pad and it ends uncountable time later that your very armor is alive, the autosenses as much daemonic as technological and your bolter speaks with you... 

 

So the question is why the Chaos Space Marines are still Loyalist + Horns...

 

Hopefully we will get some updates soon...

[Tenebris]

Truth be told there one thing I am missing most in the looks and kits of the Chaos Space Marines, esoteric trinkets. The Chaos Space Marines fight as much with bolter and chainsword as they do with curses, fetishes and totems, both in the physical realm as well as in the metaphysical. I miss vials, potions, scrolls, totems, skulls fetishes, runic icons and chains of devotion, ritual knives as well as arcane tomes, everything magical, alchemical and runic would be much welcome. 

 

While the loyalist frown upon such trinkets, a Chaos Space Marine is freed from such notions and readily embraces all kinds of arcane things to improve his performance. Healing potions, droughts of daemonic blood or from other magical components, cursed scrolls, talismans of Tzeentch to improve the sprit of the bolter, icons of Chaos to whisper thanks to the Dark Gods, totems of Khorne adorning the armor, skins of rare beasts to honor Slaanesh... those are the things missing on the CSM...

 

Look at the model of Huron, he has vials on his belt, a sinister creature at his side, icons of chaos and eldar runes... all it readily employed by a Chaos Space Marine and I think we should have more items such as that in our kits. 

[Wayniac]

I suppose I can see both sides of the argument, I'd just prefer something other than the old RT-era "warped mutants wearing power armor" type of thing because... well I'm not 100% sure why I just never liked how that looked.  I guess I've always liked the dark, archaic look of Chaos when compared to the sleeker and cleaner Marine armies; for instance when I generally think of a CSM army I think of something like Andy Chambers' old Iron Warriors forces and less a ton of insanely warped mutants and demons wearing remnants of power armor which sometimes seems to creep back in (see the new Dreadnought--I mean Hellbrute, which to me evokes memories of the oldschool RT-era Chaos dreadnought)

[Rasclomalum]

I suppose I can see both sides of the argument, I'd just prefer something other than the old RT-era "warped mutants wearing power armor" type of thing because... well I'm not 100% sure why I just never liked how that looked.

 

Simple, you want your Chaos Space Marines to look human. Humantiy accentuates the whole fallen aspect of them and make them seem more dark and tragic than something that is mutated beyond reason. 

[Sception]

Even in Betrayer on of the Word Bearers is already heavily corrupted.

 

It would also come down to the are of the equipment and their style of worship. A D-B's main Night Lords characters are mostly in armour which has been scavenged and it shows little corruption at all. Yet, if they had that same equipment on the warp and had been actively worshipping the Chaos Gods then it would be likely to change over time.

 

In general I agree, except for the 'actively worshipping the Chaos Gods' part.  That part shouldn't really matter.  If they aren't worshipping the gods of chaos, then may not add adornments themselves, they may not have painted runes or pages of blasphemous tomes sealed to their armor, but that shouldn't matter one way or another when it comes to the mutating influence of the warp.  Not if they're living in the Eye of Terror.  Again, you don't need to 'worship' gravity to fall, when your mass is within the influence of a gravitational well it just happens, it's a physical property of the material universe, just as the will of the Chaos Gods is a physical property of those areas of space where the warp spills over into the material universe.

 

 

Note I'm not saying that less mutated marine models should be unavailable to chaos players who want them, but that aesthetic is already more than covered by forgeworld's Horus Heresy line, which does that business better than any GW kit has or ever will, and with the way GW prices have been going those models aren't even much more expensive.

 

But anyway, yeah, I myself love the warped look.  Not the old style mutations, those were terrible and goofy, but I'm a total believer in the DV aesthetic, those models are just splendid and GW cannot get around to putting out a multi-part kit of them soon enough, imo, and I would love to see a movement in both the models and in the fluff to give chaos marines a more coherent aesthetic, instead of the 3.5 paradigm, where there were nine different aesthetics and no way to produce models that would cater to all of them, so instead we got models that didn't really cater to any of them.

[Wade Garrett]

ADB's Night Lords aren't a good example of an uncorrupted Traitor force, seeing as they were led by a Possesed, First Claw had one Astartes that worshipped Khorne and another that was touched by Slaanesh, and then there's the Bleeding Eyes...

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

I think we are all saying the same thing here, right??!! They're our models, we can do with them what we like.

 

I do like the sculpts for the DV Chosen and the Raptors a lot because they have a rudimentary look of once being space marines. Yet they have a unique looking new theme that isn't just 'spehs mureen' plus spikey bits.

 

And not all mutations need to be physically visible either, there could be an interior change. Like one's kidney turning into a brussel sprout.

 

LOL @Rasclomalum Chaos Space Marine- Legend of the Overfiend ...maybe that's what I'll name my Slaanesh force!!

 

End of Line

[Iron Skull Mask]

I don't like the mutated look of the new chosen of DV or the new Raptors as I hate that idea of csm = mutated degenerates which is the direction GW is pushing the army into. I don't think chaos has the same effect on all csm in the eye or elsewere. Mutations have a history of being blessings of some sort which the gods give their followers, be they helpful or not. Tzeench has always been the lord of change and mutations were most common among his followers. From what I read in BL novels on IW, they seem to be mentally disfigured much more than they are physically. They also have a reputation of replacing mutated bodyparts with bionics. Besides the obliterator virus there are few indications of physical corruption of IW in those novels and stories. And the same goes for Night Lords and Alpha Legion, although I have not read as much on them.

I strongly agree that the old traitors from the heresy days should wear more heresy style armor, with chaos iconography and accessoires like spikes, skulls, you name it. This would make them look distinct from loyalists arlight. And those who like to play recent heretics might kit bash with loyalist kits. With some cool new mutation sprue all aspects and flavors should be covered.