Fixing Dark Apostles.

[Rasclomalum]

We all know that the Dark Apostle is a poor HQ choice. Same cost as a Chaos Lord with similar wargear, but with drastically reduced wargear options, a much weaker statline in return for a set of abilities that arguably do not make up the difference. Outshone by the other entries in the HQ section, he will typically sit on a shelf together with the Warpsmith and marshal legions of Mutilators and Helbrutes that will never see a table, unless included for fluff reasons. I've a thread on Dakka discussing how to improve the poor renegade Chaplain and here's my proposal on how to improve the sad little preacher of literal fire and brimstone:

 

Dark Apostle:

 

Retains its points cost and all its abilities,

 

Changes this: 

 

Accursed Crozius: The Accursed Crozius is a power weapon with the following profile: 

Sx2, AP2, Concussive, Two-handed 

 

Losing an attack is fair since he gets a Thunder Hammer at initiative. It also makes sense for such a powerful weapon to be hefty and require two hands. Given his weaker statline I don't think it would be OP to give him a weapon with a bit of actual oomph to it.

 

Gains this:  

 

Daemonancy: 

Once per game, during the controlling player's movement phase, the Dark Apostle can, instead of moving, choose to perform a dark ritual to summon daemonic entities from the warp.  Make a leadership test. If it passes, the Apostle immediately summons one unit of D6+4 daemons from the immaterium that can be placed anywhere within 12'' of the Apostle model. If the Leadership test fails, the Dark Apostle has displeased the Gods and immediately takes one wound with no armour save allowed and the ignores cover special rule. 

 

Undivided Apostles choose freely between Bloodletters of Khorne, Daemonettes of Slaanesh, Plaguebearers of Nurgle or Pink Horrors of Tzeentch. A Dark Apostle with a Mark of Chaos can only summon Daemons of his God (so a Dark Apostle with the Mark of Khorne can only summon Bloodletters etc), but in return for his devotion the Daemon Squad gets a leader (a summoned squad of Bloodletters gain a Bloodreaper, a squad of Daemonettes gain an Alluress and so on). 

 

I am toying with the idea that a marked Apostle could also roll a D6 and on, say, a 5+ the Alluress/Bloodreaper/Iriscident Horror/Plagueridden gets a Lesser Reward. The idea is that since a marked Apostle is more expensive yet has no choice in what daemons to field, his daemons get more powerful in return.

 

Thoughts? 

[Xenith]

The accursed crozius, in the form you have suggested, would be worth at least 60 points as an upgrade to another model (like the burning blade at S7 AP2, 50pts). Probably more. It's too powerful.

 

I'd also drop daemon summoning. Needing to buy a whole other codex for that single rule will mean that still no one takes the apostle.

 

Leave the crozius as is, he needs to be a good buffing character, rather than summoning or bashy. More reliable than the sorcerer, but less dramatic.

 

Just like a Warrior Priest in Fantasy.

 

Pick one litany each turn at the start of your movement phase, the effect lasts until the end of the game turn, may not pick the same twice in a row:

 

Unit gets fearless

Unit gets relentless

unit gets furious charge

Unit gets feel no pain

etc.

 

Extend the Ld bubble to 12".

 

Best to stick with existing special rules, rather than making up all new ones.

[the jeske]

 

Accursed Crozius: The Accursed Crozius is a power weapon with the following profile: 

Sx2, AP2, Concussive, Two-handed

 

Should add a smash ability with it too . But realy Dark apostols are never going to be fixed .Because they can't be chaplains and GW has not made any biker models for them and on a bike is the only place where an apostol could be , maybe not useful , but used .

 

 

With the rules your giving him right now, he would be a slow melee hq , that because of the ap2 at I and the summoning rule would make him cost around 200-250pts. no 2w HQ is good when it costs that much.

[Brother Ambroz]

Interesting idea but Xenith is definitely correct, the crozius is far far too powerful. If you want to improve on the crozius I'd just make it AP 3 and keep the strength as is. I do like the daemon summoning but don't use the champion upgrades, keep it as is. Xenith's ideas are also great too.

[Rasclomalum]

The weapon is probably too much, agreed. What if it was +2S, AP2, Unwieldy, Two-handed? Then all we've done is improved the AP of the weapon, whilst given it one less attack and made it unwieldy. It would now be a stronger power axe with one less attack. 

 

Or drop the weapon upgrade completely, and just add the summoning. Heck, they need something to make them better. 

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

I like it a lot. I've been calling my Dark Apostle a Lord Apostle and just using the Chaos Lord stats and rules. But if the entry had a unique rule like you suggested to it, a lot of folks would be more likely to play him.

What if instead of the unmarked Apostle summoning daemons he would rally more cultists to him in the same fashion?? I also wonder if the D6+4 is a bit much to summon, the Portaglyph is basically the same thing and you have made this ability stronger in my opinion.

Another idea is to follow the same line of thinking and have the apostle take a LD test and upon passing it roll a D6. Then create a table with 3 or 6 entries on it granting the apostles unit of cultists (only works if he has joined cultists maybe...??) an ability. Feel no pain, or hatred. Something like that.

 

End of Line

[Brother Ambroz]

Cultists are far weaker than daemons though so that shouldn't be a problem of making it stronger.

 

You've also got to figure out why the crozius would be unwieldy though. I mean its not a slow weapon is it? Just a mace, so the unwieldy part doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.

[Rasclomalum]

I like it a lot. I've been calling my Dark Apostle a Lord Apostle and just using the Chaos Lord stats and rules. But if the entry had a unique rule like you suggested to it, a lot of folks would be more likely to play him.

What if instead of the unmarked Apostle summoning daemons he would rally more cultists to him in the same fashion?? I also wonder if the D6+4 is a bit much to summon, the Portaglyph is basically the same thing and you have made this ability stronger in my opinion.

Another idea is to follow the same line of thinking and have the apostle take a LD test and upon passing it roll a D6. Then create a table with 3 or 6 entries on it granting the apostles unit of cultists (only works if he has joined cultists maybe...??) an ability. Feel no pain, or hatred. Something like that.

 

End of Line

 

I hear you brother. As it stands, the Dark Apostle is not worth his points, and to make up for the power gap between him and Lords/Sorcerers he needs some changes or additional abilities. Otherwise he's just a superfluous entry in the HQ section. Shouldn't be like that in my book. All HQ's should be fieldable, when a crowded HQ section has a few go-to entries surrounded by filler we are left with the illusion of choice. 

 

 

Cultists are far weaker than daemons though so that shouldn't be a problem of making it stronger.

 

You've also got to figure out why the crozius would be unwieldy though. I mean its not a slow weapon is it? Just a mace, so the unwieldy part doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.

 

I have to admit, I just finished the Chaos campaign in DoWII - Retribution and the massive two-handed maces Eliphas can have look amazing. When I saw him gripping that big beatstick my first thought was "now that's what an Accursed Crozius should look like". So my feeling is this: increase its damage output, and make it two-handed to compensate for the increase in power. Your suggestion of making it AP3 is excellent, then it could still hit at initiative, make it S+2, AP3, Concussive, Two-handed. Essentially a relic blade.

[Cheex]

I don't agree with making the Crozius any more powerful, not without doing the same for loyalists as well.

 

The way I see it, the Dark Apostle is supposed to be a support character. He's not supposed to be a beatstick, so giving him AP2 our AP3 "just because" doesn't make sense to me.

 

I like the idea of giving him different litanies to choose from, though. And maybe allow him to upgrade his crozius to be better if you like, but I wouldn't make it standard.

[the jeske]

a "support" HQ that is high cost and doesn't have any units to support will never be a good one .

[Slayer le Boucher]

Orator of Darkness; all CSM friendly units in a 12" radius can use the Dark Apostle LD for any test that requires a LD test, they are also subject to the Dark Apostle Oratories.

 

  -Each turn at the beginning of the movement phase the Dark Apostle can choose to use One Oratory, this Oratory last until the beginning of the next CSM player turn.

 

   -"Fear of the Dark"; One ennemy unit in a 12" radius under this Oratory, gets a -2 on their LD tests.

   -" Blood for the Blood God!"; Units under this Oratory, gains the Furious Charge and Rampage USR.

   -" All Hail the Prince of Chaos!"; Units under this Oratory, gains the Fleet and move through covers USR.

  -" Let them enjoy papa Nurgle gifts!"; Units under this Oratory, gains the poisened(4+) USR for there melee attacks.

  -" The Master of Destinies, watches!"; Units under this Oratory, gains the Relentless USR, Psykers can rethrow failed Psy test.

 

Special Rules; Beseech the Dark Gods, Zealot, Champion of Chaos.

[Spacefrisian]

Like Chaplains, the only change they need is you being freely allowed to choose what his crozius will be, not stuck to useless powermace.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Like Chaplains, the only change they need is you being freely allowed to choose what his crozius will be, not stuck to useless powermace.

The powermace isn't that bad,yeah it can't penetrate power armour, but it's strenght bonus means it is more likely to wound a 2++ then a sword.

[Spacefrisian]

 

Like Chaplains, the only change they need is you being freely allowed to choose what his crozius will be, not stuck to useless powermace.

The powermace isn't that bad,yeah it can't penetrate power armour, but it's strenght bonus means it is more likely to wound a 2++ then a sword.

Yes its bad, considering most armies you are going to face in combat are either high toughness or great armour safe. And iam not the only one who made dust collectors out of all those models.

 

And those low toughness models with no armour safe you encounter once in a while either shoot you before the swinging, or would have died by a regular powersword even easier.

[the jeske]

him sucking[aside of stats he has] is linked to one of THE problems of chaos , which is lack of transport options. If he could take jumppack/bike or be put in a pod ,he would still be bad, but we could have those topics with me saying how bad he is and others saying that they used him and it worked etc. Drastic rules changes won't happen , he won't be made a chaplain+ or lord+ . He may change if marks would change [what if tzeench gave brotherhood of psykers to units and mastery lvl 1 psyker to character models?] , but for that we need a new edition of our and demon dex.

[Warsmith Aznable]

He has two roles as I understand him:

 

1. put him with someone you expect to win duels but don't want to become a spawn or a daemon prince.

 

2. put him with a specialized unit that needs to be Fearless.

 

The fact that he can't be be put on a bike or take a jump pack or wear Terminator armour limits what units he can be reliably added to. So grant him access to special wargear, and I think he's probably fine.

 

GW probably envisions him as primarily a Cultist buff, and so thought that his extra amount of special rules makes up for his limited versatility, which is apparently not seen as true by many if not most CSM players. It isn't by me, that's for sure, because I would like to have a Dark Apostle in TDA.

 

Also, change his name from Dark Apostle to something like Demagogue (or whatever), because 'Dark Apostle' should have been kept sacred as a Word Bearer's title, IMO.

 

EDIT: discovered and eliminated an egregious grammar error.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

How bout this for a special rule instead of Demagouge:

Blessings of the Dark Gods:

At the beginning of the player's turn, a Dark Apostle take a leadership test. If he passes he may pick one of 5 auras, all auras have a a 12' radius and effect all friendly units. If the apostle fails the test, they suffer a wound with armor or cover saves

Undivided: +1 LD

Khorne: Hatred

Tzeentch: Reroll 1s for shooting

Nurgle: FNP

Slaanesh: Fearless

If the Dark Apostle take a Mark, he may only use his respective aura and the undivided aura but automatically passes the alD check needed to activate the auras.

[Brother Ambroz]

Undivided and Slaanesh would be useless as the dark apostle already confers his LD to units within 6".

[Sception]

Chaos lord + power or black mace.  Fix'd.  Or as fix'd as it's ever going to be, and still be playable in an actual game against an actual opponent.

[the jeske]

Been thinking about him . there are ways to make him useful for us without rules changes. imagine he had 5pts warp rifts to buy which would work a bit like our versions of servo skulls. teleport homers or a bit higher cost [lets say 25 per each] and lets any unit going out of reservs deep strike out of them without scater. In fact portal/warp rift tech could be our anwser to to transport problems . Imagine we have the same codex as now [nothing changes] , but you can put 3-9[if you take 1-3 apostols]such bad boys . our reserv dudes can come out of them [ala DE portals] , suddenly vindicators make sense . talons and melee units can be used , we have multi source deployment . Could be awesome [and won't happen because I have writen it in a public place].

[Rasclomalum]

That... would just be class. I like it. Definitely slots the apostle as a useful support character. 

[Daevyll]

Just giving him the option to buy 1 or 2 psychic levels including divination (call it visions from the warp) would be worth it for me. Perhaps give the Crozius the Force weapon attribute, fixing that as well.

[totgeboren]

I have to somewhat agree with Daevyll. The easiest fix imo, though it might lead to him being an auto-include, is to give him lets say "Unholy Revelations". Make him a lvl 1 unupgradable psycher with access to Divination only. Maybe disallow him from purchasing a familiar too, just to make his psychics a bit less reliable.

 

He becomes useful, but is still solely a support character and entirely distinct from the Chaos Sorcerer, who is more of a glass cannon deal.

 

Other than that, there are lots of great ideas in this thread. Sadly GW seems to have their minds set on not selling their CSM range (considering two pretty bad codices in a row), so I don't know why we even try (bo-ho whine-whine rant-rant and so on).

[Slayer le Boucher]

Been thinking about him . there are ways to make him useful for us without rules changes. imagine he had 5pts warp rifts to buy which would work a bit like our versions of servo skulls. teleport homers or a bit higher cost [lets say 25 per each] and lets any unit going out of reservs deep strike out of them without scater. In fact portal/warp rift tech could be our anwser to to transport problems . Imagine we have the same codex as now [nothing changes] , but you can put 3-9[if you take 1-3 apostols]such bad boys . our reserv dudes can come out of them [ala DE portals] , suddenly vindicators make sense . talons and melee units can be used , we have multi source deployment . Could be awesome [and won't happen because I have writen it in a public place].

 

I really like that!

[Hellios]

How about taking a psychic test... If he passes... you pick a unit within 12 and roll on the boon table... apply the effects to the entire unit (No making everyone DPs). He can't be relied on... but he could make a unit very powerful if he isn't dealt with, or even with a bit of luck... and a unit of 10 or 20 becoming spawn isn't something to laugh at... unless they happen to be your last scoring unit... Saying that... you know this would just lead to people trying to spawn 50 man blobs of cultists. I've now made the boon table useful.