Fixing Dark Apostles.

[totgeboren]

That was a pretty cool idea Hellios, though probably a bit more powerful than most suggestions. Suddenly getting a huge unit of spawn would be an "I WIN" event, but on the other hand, I have gotten a DP a few times as it is which more or less meant game over for my opponent.

But after reading through the Boon table, and saying "do not apply DP but roll again" (note, not reroll, since you could then get DP for the entire unit anyway), it would probably be pretty balanced. You still have no gift results and a few duds (like Eternal Warrior), but all in all it could probably work.

 

I think the best solution would probably be to count both Spawn and DP results as "Unworthy Offering". They get can get some nice buff, but nothing totally unbalancing.

[FENRISÚLFUR]

I like some of the ideas in here about the DA buffing his squad and squads near him, but what about debuffs? I think that would have also fit the aesthetic of chaos demoralizing their foes. I like how the Warpsmith can Shatter defences, and maybe something similar for the DA would have given the 'feel' people were looking for. I'm not going to speculate on rules that 'could have been' or 'could be' but what I think needs fixing the most is that the feel of the DA along with a lot of other units in the codex just wasn't met.  

[Xenith]

How about taking a psychic test... If he passes... you pick a unit within 12 and roll on the boon table... apply the effects to the entire unit (No making everyone DPs). He can't be relied on... but he could make a unit very powerful if he isn't dealt with, or even with a bit of luck... and a unit of 10 or 20 becoming spawn isn't something to laugh at... unless they happen to be your last scoring unit... Saying that... you know this would just lead to people trying to spawn 50 man blobs of cultists. I've now made the boon table useful.

 

I like this idea, although the boon table may be too powerful, Imagine Terminators getting reroll saves, or +1 armour etc.

 

What about rolling on the possessed table, and the effect lasts a turn?

[Brother Ambroz]

Or why not create a whole new table for the apostle's version of mutation?

[Hellios]

 

How about taking a psychic test... If he passes... you pick a unit within 12 and roll on the boon table... apply the effects to the entire unit (No making everyone DPs). He can't be relied on... but he could make a unit very powerful if he isn't dealt with, or even with a bit of luck... and a unit of 10 or 20 becoming spawn isn't something to laugh at... unless they happen to be your last scoring unit... Saying that... you know this would just lead to people trying to spawn 50 man blobs of cultists. I've now made the boon table useful.

 

I like this idea, although the boon table may be too powerful, Imagine Terminators getting reroll saves, or +1 armour etc.

 

What about rolling on the possessed table, and the effect lasts a turn?

 

A 1 is always a fail... So even with a 1+ save... you need a 2+ to pass. I'm also not sure you can get a 1+ save in 40K. I know in WFB you can/could, but that is another story.

 

I was going to make the Dark Apostle the gambling man's choice. A lot of role won't do much, or will mean little (depending on the unit that gets them), but the right role could win the game. This makes the DA powerful as a buffer, but not that strong by himself. Assuming he survives the game... You have 6 or 7 turns to cast something. However once you make him a threat, people will try to kill him... and he has to accept challenges (unless he has a 'bodyguard'). If we drop the range of the bubble to 6 inches, you also need to think carefully about where you will deploy him.

 

As for a new table... you could. However, that is more work. I would argue the whole boon table (and possessed for that matter) need redoing. So maybe a new boon table...

 

Oh... While I'm on possessed. I have a suggestion... That will make them random (if that is what GW wants), and maybe more powerful (maybe). How about making them normal marines (or something that isn't so different) and at the start of the game give them d3 roles on the boon table (with re-rolls to show the daemons inside directing the mutations; they are not just random mutations), and/or getting to role on the boon table at the start of everyone of your turns. This would mean possessed get better as the game goes on... but in theory there should also be less of them. They might not start out a threat, and your opponent may ignore them to target something else. but if they do that they risk a a full squad of possessed getting 'jacked-up'.

 

I really like the idea of the boon table, I just think it doesn't really do anything for chaos.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Visions and Voices: Become a Psyker, at standard +25 points per level, with only Divination and Telepathy whether he has a Mark or not.

 

Insidious Diplomacy: Desperate Allies become Allies of Convenience, Allies of Convenience become Battle Brothers.

[the jeske]

lvl one divination caster or lvl two divination caster ?

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Two, if you want to throw 50 points at it.

[totgeboren]

If the DA was a full-on Divination psycher, would we ever see Sorcerers in our lists? I think not, and I think if he was a divination psycher, he should be lvl 1 tops.

[Excessus]

I wouldn't give the DA divination, I'd leave that for daemonic allies and Ahriman (in a dreamworld). In fact I wouldn't make them psykers at all. (maybe leave that for the MoT in a dreamworld)

 

My thought would be more like handling them like Heralds in that they would be able to buy a set of upgrades for any unit they join. What upgrades they would be I haven't thought about, but their zealotry and fervor should give blessings to the troops around them...maybe in a 6" or 12" bubble or something... Also, make them be able to buy special issue stuff...

[Rasclomalum]

Hmmm... giving the Apostle the ability to upgrade one Aspiring Champion to a Coryphaus (call it Dark Champion if you want to keep things less Word Bearersesque) and grant that lucky dude some special rules or stat increases? If the general sentiment that the DA is overcosted by 20-30 points, then the champion could receive that balance in terms of WS/BS/A/W/I or whatever. Dunno how these things are valued. If it affected Aspiring Sorcerers in some nice way it might even be what Thousand Sons need to be fielded for reasons other than fluff.

[Dark Disciple]

I've always thought something along the lines of different litanies would suit the Apostle, with each one giving joined units a different benefit.

How would something like this sound?

 

Include Teleport Homer in base cost and allow purchase of wings and jump pack.

Allow level 1 psyker upgrade – must take divination discipline.

Losses Space Marine Chaplain rule but gains one called Dark Litanies

Dark Litanies– In players movement phase the Dark Apostle grants joined unit one of the following abilities. Must use a different litany each turn or on a D6 of 4 or less turn into a Chaos Spawn! 

Litany of the Word – Unit gains the Fearless rule        

Litany of Fear – Enemy units within 12” of Apostle are at -1Ld. Must pass leadership test to attack Apostle and his unit in close combat        

Litany of Khorne – Unit may re-roll misses in close combat      

Litany of Nurgle – Unit gains the shrouded rule      

Litany of Slaanesh – Unit gains the Fleet rule        

Litany of Tzeentch - Unit gains the Salvo rule

To balance out the buffs I thought of something along the Tau Etheral rule.

Add rule: Chosen of the Gods – if Apostle dies then joined unit must take leadership test. If failed unit immediately falls back. If passed unit is pinned.

[Hezirah]

As a word bearer player, I would like to see Dark Apostle as an upgrade for Chaos Lord.

[totgeboren]

I'm also a WB player, but I'm not sure the Lord upgrade is such a good solution. First of all, it makes little sense if the DA is a Lord++. If the DA gives useful buffs, it needs to be balanced against other Lords somehow. The background definitely does not support the notion that all Lords are about equal, except the WB Lords who are are simply better.

 

It's easier to make DA both desiarable and balanced against other Legion leaders by having them as their own choice.

 

The easiest buff that would at least make them about worth the points is a simple +1W and +1A. Done.

 

It wouldn't fix them in making them really useful, but they would at least not be pointless in comparison with a basic Lord.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

A Lord would be more cost effective without an Apostle upgrade and would lack the compulsory power maul. Consider what the Apostle costs over the Lord with his stat disadvantages; a Lord with available upgrades to simulate Apostledom would end up being a fair bit more expensive (a rules bundle with Beseech the Dark Gods, Demagogue, Zealot, and the upgrade of a weapon to a power maul, on top of 65 points). Just like a Warsmith would have mechatentacles, Shatter Defenses, etc. and mandatory power axe. And a Sorcerer would end up being a cheaper ML3 Sorcerer with a built-in Force Weapon than a Lord given the option to spend 100 points to catch up. It's not that they're better, because you can certainly tool Lords up to be better than them in combat or what-have-you without those upgrades. It's that Lords so upgraded would have different specialties.

 

A Coryphaus strikes me as a Chaos Lord character, really. A First Acolyte would be a Champion upgrade, probably.

[Shuggnuggath]

<p>Since GW probably won't be giving him a bike or demonic mount I would give him the Crusader USR and keep his points cost the same. I might also be tempted to give him a free Gift of mutation roll that he could confer on a Champion of his choice at the start of the game (even more interesting if he gave a whole unit a Gift).</p>

[Dallas Drake]

The problem for me is that he's just stuck in as an after thought to try and keep WB players (like me) happy. If he unlocked cult Word Bearers (Crusader/Zealot) as troops then he'd be useful and fluffy.

 

I'd like to see him with 3 wounds & a level 1 in divination or an ability to summon 2D6 daemons (any of the 4 troops choices) for his points cost (or even a small increase).

[MaliGn]

<p>Since GW probably won't be giving him a bike or demonic mount I would give him the Crusader USR and keep his points cost the same. I might also be tempted to give him a free Gift of mutation roll that he could confer on a Champion of his choice at the start of the game (even more interesting if he gave a whole unit a Gift).</p>

I like the idea of him being able to grant gifts of mutation, would you allow beseech the dark gods to stack?

 

Would changing beseech to be select your boon (may not choose unworthy, dark apotheosis or spawn results (possibly other exclusions too)) from the available results to provide more useful results from the table, must choose to use this ability before roll is made and replaces the roll. Suddenly he is the most chaotic buffer out there.