The best legion (please don't hurt me...) *Hides*

[Emperor's Scourge]

Nevermind. Off-topic. Unneeded. Not worth the trouble.

If someone merely pointing out that you missed a joke sent you into a rage so bad that you had to edit your comment I think you've got to unplug for a bit son.  Have a drink or something.

 

I didn't mean to insult you.

 

Perhaps it was an inside joke that *I* missed.  If so then I'm sorry.

[Captain Semper]

Darrell is right. Keep to the topic - I'm sure we all have our reasons to prefer one Legion over another and one Primarch over another. So let's hear it.

[Xin Ceithan]

Alpha Legion

They get an Ork Fleet to RUN AWAY from them !(q.v. Fear to Tread)

;)

Also basically any Legion when written by Abnett or ADB...

[Kol Saresk]

Alpha Legion

They get an Ork Fleet to RUN AWAY from them !(q.v. Fear to Tread)

;)

 

I still want to know how they blew up a planetoid.

 

So yeah, Night Lords because you can't spell slaughter without laughter and you can't say it without an insidious giggle. Not to mention they're honest. Where everyone else hides behind some great ideal or mentality, the Night Lords are honest about the fact that they're monsters. I mean sure, there's the occasional idealist but even Talos knew he wasn't some sort of hero.

[Ratboy1664]

I can't tell you which legion is best, but I can whittle it down a bit using the following parameters

 

1) Only consider legion actions up to the destruction of Monarchia, as this was the last point that they were all 100% loyalist.

2) Disregard number of compliances, kill ratios etc etc as each battle is unique and incomparable, the legions are different sizes etc.

 

Okay so what can we judge them on then? How about gene-seed. So far three legions have been shown to have major genetic flaws, the Thousand Sons, Space Wolves and Blood Angels. I think it is safe to say that you can rule out these legions as being the best based on this fact.

 

On to the World Eaters. Does fitting the butchers nails into your men which robs them of rational thought but turns them into raging beserkers who feel no pain bad for a pure warrior? Does it matter if you are tactically inflexible if you can still take your objective? I would answer yes it is a bad thing. If you can be flexible and take the objective for 10 men, or just charge up the middle and take the objective for 1000 men then I would argue against the latter. Also there is the collateral damage. If, as a famous American general said during the Vietnam war "we had to destroy the village to save it", then I would argue that you have failed in your role as protectors of your civilians. For this reason I would rule the World Eaters out of the conversation for best legion.

 

Well at least we are down to 14 now..... 

[Kol Saresk]

I can't tell you which legion is best, but I can whittle it down a bit using the following parameters

 

1) Only consider legion actions up to the destruction of Monarchia, as this was the last point that they were all 100% loyalist.

2) Disregard number of compliances, kill ratios etc etc as each battle is unique and incomparable, the legions are different sizes etc.

 

Okay so what can we judge them on then? How about gene-seed. So far three legions have been shown to have major genetic flaws, the Thousand Sons, Space Wolves and Blood Angels. I think it is safe to say that you can rule out these legions as being the best based on this fact.

 

On to the World Eaters. Does fitting the butchers nails into your men which robs them of rational thought but turns them into raging beserkers who feel no pain bad for a pure warrior? Does it matter if you are tactically inflexible if you can still take your objective? I would answer yes it is a bad thing. If you can be flexible and take the objective for 10 men, or just charge up the middle and take the objective for 1000 men then I would argue against the latter. Also there is the collateral damage. If, as a famous American general said during the Vietnam war "we had to destroy the village to save it", then I would argue that you have failed in your role as protectors of your civilians. For this reason I would rule the World Eaters out of the conversation for best legion.

 

Well at least we are down to 14 now.....

Pre-Monarchia huh?

 

I propose Night Lords. Their gene-seed is actually considered one of the purest, even after ~10,000 years(give or take 9,700) of warp exposure and before Monarchia, the Night Lords were a scalpel, performing precision strikes utilizing force multipliers such as terror tactics and night-fighting. The very whisper of their coming caused more than a few planets to come to compliance without a shot being fired and even of those who didn't, they quickly saw things the Imperial way after their population was decimated. Curze himself was believed to have been a paragon of justice and order at this time, punishing the sinners for refusing to obey the Emperor's will.

 

Heh, heh, heh. Pretty nice huh?

[Legatus]

 

The very whisper of their coming caused more than a few planets to come to compliance without a shot being fired

 

Could be that the Horus Heresy or Forgeworld books included such statements, but originally (Index Astartes) the rumoured presence of the Night Lords had merely caused already Imperial worlds to cease any kind of illegal activities. It was the World Eaters who were described as their mere mention causing enemies to surrender outright.

[Tenebris]

The Thousand Sons, again!

 

Point by point the most cost efficient astartes, all you needed is a few squads with several Librarians and perhaps a Magister. All was possible than. No need for tons of vehicles, squads, regiments of the Imperial Army, no need for that when you have magic at your side. Sure a Son here an there turned to a Spawn and ate a squad or two but overall I think that the Thousand Sons operated on a level never reached by the other legions. A squad led by a Librarian was capable to predict every movement of the enemy, where weapons were ineffective the leader used awesome psychic powers and I presume due to the gifts of the Pavoni, probably the best healers in the astartes legions, the Thousand Sons were able to return many a brother that would have not survived in the care of the other legion's apothecaries, back and ready for battle. 

 

Not only that, they were scholars first and foremost, so they were always armed with the knowledge to fight effectively every enemy. In short a Thousand Sons company was way way more effective than the companies of other legions, they had to be for the Sons were always the smallest legion, and nothing comes close to the force multiplier effect of psychic powers, ready and available even at squad level. 

 

Also consider that no legion ever reached the heights of mental discipline like the Thousand Sons. Their very mind was a weapon, and coupled with a geneforged body and the astartes organ, the hundreds of hours spent in study and the powerful psychic talents, I dare say that we have the pinnacle of astartes mastery and combat form in the shape of a Thousand Sons legionnaire.

 

The late novel on Lucius even says that there is a Thousand Sons sorcerer who mastered the form of every sword school ever practiced by humanity. So not only the Thousand Sons studied the Warp but the more martial ones extensively studied the fields of war to peak perfection. 

 

My 2 cents. 

[Perrin]

Is that the Thousand Sons sorcerer that Lucius destroyed in a duel

I do agree though, despite them not being my favourite Legion they are probably the most dangerous/capable per marine. Imagine if they had the numbers of the Ultramarines! That would be something.

[Tenebris]

Well we speak of a swordsman that was able to fight off Lucius for a few bouts (a great feat), and a swordsman that was even giving lectures to Lucius. On the other hand you cannot hope to match the chosen of Slaanesh. But the point stands, the sorcerer in the novel is the proof that the Thousand Sons were not only peerless psykers but also masters of hundreds of forms of knowledge, ranging from history, martial arts, strategy, philosophy (Aurelian) and much much more. They craved knowledge in all forms, not just magic power. So I dare say that you would hardly find more capable marines, for not only they were astartes but they were scholar astartes, even the brothers who were not psykers were able to call upon a wealth of knowledge. I would say that the only legions that somehow came to match them in the sheer knowledge learned by its astartes are the Emperor's Children, though theirs was more a knowledge of the myriad of arts and philosophies of humankind or the Word Bearers... but it was more a knowledge of history and myth. The Thousand Sons encompassed all forms of knowledge, art, philosophy and a myriad forms of study. 

 

In the end I think, without boasting or cheering up for a legion, that the Thousand Sons were able to complete the objectives requiring a full astartes company with probably half that number in space marines, armor and army support. In the Outcast Dead one learns how mighty and terrible can be a Thousand Sons astartes when unleashed. A furious avatar of destruction that shadowed even born killers like World Eaters, Luna Wolves and other. Hell a magister even broke the famous shield wall of the Space Wolves while another sorcerer wiped entire squads from the face of Prospero when he became one with the Warp... one sorcerer...

[Excessus]

One drove a titan by himself, another projected a kinetic shield against an eldar titan's weapons...

 

Phosis T'kar was only stopped because he willed it himself, otherwise he'd have slaughtered them by himself!

[Wade Garrett]

So, because the Thousand Sons produced one swordsman who was inferior to Loken of the Luna Wolves, Sharrowkyn of the Raven Guard, and Saul Tarvitz of the Emperor's Children, they're the best Legion.

 

Walk me through this again because I'm not getting it.

[Perrin]

So, because the Thousand Sons produced one swordsman who was inferior to Loken of the Luna Wolves, Sharrowkyn of the Raven Guard, and Saul Tarvitz of the Emperor's Children, they're the best Legion.

 

Walk me through this again because I'm not getting it.

 

Not at all what was posted. What was posted is that basically, that member thinks that TS are the best Legion because pound for pound, they can best all other astartes due to their mastery of the warp, among other things, and that they're only held back because of their relatively small numbers.

 

That's what I read anyway, don't know what post you were reading.

[Wade Garrett]

What I'm saying is that the Sons may have the Warp on their side, but the peak of martial perfection? Hardly.

 

Every hour you spend with your nose stuck in a book is an hour you aren't training tactics, sword skills, marksmanship, and so on.

 

Thus, by having all their Marines spend significant amounts of time navel gazing the Sons can never equal, say, the hand to hand combat skills of the World Eaters, who devote every waking hour to honing their martial skills.

 

Also, Lucius as potrayed in the Heresy novels so far is a joke character who has gone down like a chump every time he's faced a non mook opponent.

 

Saying a Thousand Son held his own with him in a sword fight doesn't mean much.

[Perrin]

I suppose it comes down to whether someone can be better at something through experience or theoretical learning. The World Eaters, like you said Wade, do spend most of their time training, whether it be in the pits or running through blade drills on their own, and all of their practical battle experience is likely to be hand-to-hand combat. The Thousand Sons on the other hand, if they did decide to study swordcraft like the one that fights Lucius, would likely spend most of their free time going through treatise on different techniques etc, while their battle experience would likely be using warp powers (depending on which Cult they belong to) or using bolters.

So it would really come down to natural ability + experience vs technical ability and knowledge.

 

Tbf I'd put my money on the WE, but there are exceptions to every rule, especially in 40k.

[Kol Saresk]

Legatus, on 08 Jan 2014 - 06:52, said:

 

 

Quote

The very whisper of their coming caused more than a few planets to come to compliance without a shot being fired

Could be that the Horus Heresy or Forgeworld books included such statements, but originally (Index Astartes) the rumoured presence of the Night Lords had merely caused already Imperial worlds to cease any kind of illegal activities. It was the World Eaters who were described as their mere mention causing enemies to surrender outright.

 

Actually it doesn't say if those worlds were Imperial or not. It gives a general list of "...the mere mention of their presence in a system enough to ensure that civilized planets paid all outstanding tithes, ceased all illegal activity completely and killed those who bore deformities rather than invite a purge from the Night Lords.

 

A statement that general would pretty much include Imperial and non-Imperial worlds. Then again, the way the Imperium saw things, there was no such thing as a non-Imperial world; just those that complied with Imperial Law and those who didn't. Yet. That's all "bringing to Compliance" means anyway, "bringing to a state of acquiescence."

[Sevatar]

The Iron Hands are the best.  Uncompromising, unflinching and totally committed. Too bad they were betrayed....

[Legatus]

 

It gives a general list of "...the mere mention of their presence in a system enough to ensure that civilized planets paid all outstanding tithes, ceased all illegal activity completely and killed those who bore deformities rather than invite a purge from the Night Lords.

 

A statement that general would pretty much include Imperial and non-Imperial worlds.

 

Non-Imperial worlds who payed a tithe to the Imperium and were subject to the Imperial justice system?

[Perrin]

Legatus, on 08 Jan 2014 - 06:52, said:

Quote

The very whisper of their coming caused more than a few planets to come to compliance without a shot being fired

Could be that the Horus Heresy or Forgeworld books included such statements, but originally (Index Astartes) the rumoured presence of the Night Lords had merely caused already Imperial worlds to cease any kind of illegal activities. It was the World Eaters who were described as their mere mention causing enemies to surrender outright.

Actually it doesn't say if those worlds were Imperial or not. It gives a general list of "...the mere mention of their presence in a system enough to ensure that civilized planets paid all outstanding tithes, ceased all illegal activity completely and killed those who bore deformities rather than invite a purge from the Night Lords.

A statement that general would pretty much include Imperial and non-Imperial worlds. Then again, the way the Imperium saw things, there was no such thing as a non-Imperial world; just those that complied with Imperial Law and those who didn't. Yet. That's all "bringing to Compliance" means anyway, "bringing to a state of acquiescence."

Maybe I've read it differently but to me that doesn't include non-Imperial worlds, because that would make no sense. If a non-Imperial world somehow heard the Night Lords were on their way, surely they would just ask "Who are the Night Lords?". Also how would a non-Imperial world know anything about what tithes they're expected to pay, what is considered illegal activity within the Imperium, what kind of deformities the Imperium purges (on a scale of three arms to colour-blind) etc. They wouldn't have any "outstanding" tithes either if they hadn't yet become part of the Imperial war machine.

EDIT: Ninja-d by Legatus by about 3 seconds

[Conn Eremon]

The point I think Kol was making was that according to Imperial thought, there were no non-Imperial worlds. Only Imperial worlds that had not yet been visited by the Great Crusade to tell them what they are and require.

[Perrin]

The point I think Kol was making was that according to Imperial thought, there were no non-Imperial worlds. Only Imperial worlds that had not yet been visited by the Great Crusade to tell them what they are and require.

I really must work on my reading skills because that isn't what I got at all

That was a point in his post yes, but I think his main point was that this quote "...the mere mention of their presence in a system enough to ensure that civilized planets paid all outstanding tithes, ceased all illegal activity completely and killed those who bore deformities rather than invite a purge from the Night Lords" refers to Imperial AND non-Imperial worlds.

Of course then the second point that was made that the Imperium sees all human worlds as part of the Imperium that hasn't realised it yet obviously means that there are no non-Imperial worlds. Perhaps the term should be changed to Imperial worlds and non-compliant Imperial worlds, although that instead creates the image of a world in uprising.

Apologies Kol if I've misunderstood your meaning.

[Kol Saresk]

Legatus, on 08 Jan 2014 - 06:52, said:

Quote

The very whisper of their coming caused more than a few planets to come to compliance without a shot being fired

Could be that the Horus Heresy or Forgeworld books included such statements, but originally (Index Astartes) the rumoured presence of the Night Lords had merely caused already Imperial worlds to cease any kind of illegal activities. It was the World Eaters who were described as their mere mention causing enemies to surrender outright.

Actually it doesn't say if those worlds were Imperial or not. It gives a general list of "...the mere mention of their presence in a system enough to ensure that civilized planets paid all outstanding tithes, ceased all illegal activity completely and killed those who bore deformities rather than invite a purge from the Night Lords.

A statement that general would pretty much include Imperial and non-Imperial worlds. Then again, the way the Imperium saw things, there was no such thing as a non-Imperial world; just those that complied with Imperial Law and those who didn't. Yet. That's all "bringing to Compliance" means anyway, "bringing to a state of acquiescence."

Maybe I've read it differently but to me that doesn't include non-Imperial worlds, because that would make no sense. If a non-Imperial world somehow heard the Night Lords were on their way, surely they would just ask "Who are the Night Lords?". Also how would a non-Imperial world know anything about what tithes they're expected to pay, what is considered illegal activity within the Imperium, what kind of deformities the Imperium purges (on a scale of three arms to colour-blind) etc. They wouldn't have any "outstanding" tithes either if they hadn't yet become part of the Imperial war machine.

EDIT: Ninja-d by Legatus by about 3 seconds

Notice what I said; "a general statement". Nowhere does it say a planet did all three or not. That's why I said it included both Imperial and non-Imperial as there is no specification, just assumption that there is an implied specification while the statement itself is general in nature. If worlds can hear the name of the World Eaters and go "Leave us alone" then that implies a spread of knowledge ahead of the Imperium, that their reputation precedes them. You really think the World Eaters are the only ones whose reputation travels ahead of them? I mean, I guess we can go ahead and say the World Eaters are the best because they're the only Legion who has a reputation known outside the Imperium if that's the case.

In fact, the only specification is "civilized worlds". Now, what constitutes as a civilized world? Is it an Imperial World? Nothing says yes, but nothing says no either. It is a non-Imperial world? Again, nothing says but nothing says no.

However, just further down the article

In the wake of his terrible act, Night Haunter became susceptible to the whispered temptations of Chaos. By this time, he was dangerously unhinged, leaving a trail of devastated worlds across the galaxy. Few civilized worlds were left without blemish and the pretexts on which Night Haunter launched full-scale invasions became less and less credible. Imperial reconnaissance craft followed in the wake of the Night Lords' fleet, reporting back to the Emperor's throne room across unimaginable stretches of space.

Emphasis is mine on the words, "civilized worlds", "invasion" and "reconnaissance craft".

Now, we see civilized worlds again. We also see these "civilized worlds" are being invaded. You don't invaded territory you already own. This implies that in this case, these "civilized worlds" are not yet under the yoke of the Imperium. We also see reconnaissance craft following the Night Lords. Now, this could be because maybe they were stealth craft. But the quote does not mention these civilized worlds being destroyed and it does say that a few were left unharmed. If these "civilized worlds" were already a part of the Imperium, then why would they require the aid of reconnaissance craft to relay what the Night Lords were doing back to the Imperium unless they did not have access to the Imperial communication channels? And yet we see these recnnaissance craft reporting back across "unimaginable stretches of space." Unimaginable, to the Imperium. That's quite a distance.

So backtracking a somewhat more definite definition of "civilized worlds", we see that it can refer to worlds that do not belong to the Imperium. So, the three acts that planets have done, are probably the three most common acts that are recorded, meaning that some of the worlds were Imperial, but enough weren't to warrant the general specification of "civilized worlds". More than likely, the non-Imperial worlds heard pf the Night Lords reputation and then tried to find ways to escape notice, such as leaving tributes(or possibly bypassing the tithe factor altogether), ceasing lawless activity and killing even the most unnoticeable of mutants(extra toes anyone?).

EDIT: Yeah, maybe my wording is getting in the way. Maybe I could change it to "compliant and non-compliant", but if the planet was compliant then it wouldn't have to be purged. Maybe we can point out that these worlds are non-compliant, which would also include both disobedient Imperial and non-Imperial worlds?

[Conn Eremon]

I was replying to Legatus, hadn't hit refresh to see your post.

[Stormborn]

 

I can't tell you which legion is best, but I can whittle it down a bit using the following parameters

 

1) Only consider legion actions up to the destruction of Monarchia, as this was the last point that they were all 100% loyalist.

2) Disregard number of compliances, kill ratios etc etc as each battle is unique and incomparable, the legions are different sizes etc.

 

Okay so what can we judge them on then? How about gene-seed. So far three legions have been shown to have major genetic flaws, the Thousand Sons, Space Wolves and Blood Angels. I think it is safe to say that you can rule out these legions as being the best based on this fact.

 

On to the World Eaters. Does fitting the butchers nails into your men which robs them of rational thought but turns them into raging beserkers who feel no pain bad for a pure warrior? Does it matter if you are tactically inflexible if you can still take your objective? I would answer yes it is a bad thing. If you can be flexible and take the objective for 10 men, or just charge up the middle and take the objective for 1000 men then I would argue against the latter. Also there is the collateral damage. If, as a famous American general said during the Vietnam war "we had to destroy the village to save it", then I would argue that you have failed in your role as protectors of your civilians. For this reason I would rule the World Eaters out of the conversation for best legion.

 

Well at least we are down to 14 now.....

Pre-Monarchia huh?

 

I propose Night Lords. Their gene-seed is actually considered one of the purest, even after ~10,000 years(give or take 9,700) of warp exposure and before Monarchia, the Night Lords were a scalpel, performing precision strikes utilizing force multipliers such as terror tactics and night-fighting. The very whisper of their coming caused more than a few planets to come to compliance without a shot being fired and even of those who didn't, they quickly saw things the Imperial way after their population was decimated. Curze himself was believed to have been a paragon of justice and order at this time, punishing the sinners for refusing to obey the Emperor's will.

 

Heh, heh, heh. Pretty nice huh?

If you using geneseed you would need to take out the Raven Guard as well.  The Space Wolves and the blood Angels rise above their faulty geneseed.  Given that the Night Lords are all rapists and murders and the scum of a planet with a nut job for a primarch (he even tries to kill Dorn before the HH, although personally that is apoint in his favour)  not really buying them as the best of anything.  Similarly I would dismiss the iron hands all that flesh is weak only the machine is strong means they come across as a vanguard for the angry robots rather than a space marine legion. 

 

As to pre Monarchia, I just don't believe there is enough evidence about all the legions to make this viable.

 

I'm sticking with

 

Alpha Legion pre heresy

White Scars during the heresy (until I have read Scars)

Ultramarines post heresy

 

Most legions have flaws whether genetic or psycholgical.  The important part is whether they rise above them or let them define who they are.

[Legatus]

 

Maybe we can point out that these worlds are non-compliant, which would also include both disobedient Imperial and non-Imperial worlds?

 

But the Index Astartes does not include non-imperial worlds. Non-imperial worlds have no outstanding tithes to pay, have no reason to abide by Imperial law (or know what those laws might be) or to abide by Imperial mandates for genetic purity.

 

The Night Lords were feared as prosecutors of disobedience, not as destroyers of civilisations. The Night Lords were ruthless and scared a world into obedience. The World Eaters simply tore them apart if they resisted. That is why Imperial worlds feared the presence of the Night Lords, and why non-Imperial worlds feared the wrath of the World Eaters.