The best legion (please don't hurt me...) *Hides*

[Kol Saresk]

Pre-Monarchia would have been before Nostramo slid back into its decadent ways and the recruits drawn from the Homeworld were mostly rapists, killers and thieves. So the Night Lords would actually be mentally stable at that point in time. And Monarchia was only forty-three years before Istvaan V.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Maybe we can point out that these worlds are non-compliant, which would also include both disobedient Imperial and non-Imperial worlds?

 

But the Index Astartes does not include non-imperial worlds. Non-imperial worlds have no outstanding tithes to pay, have no reason to abide by Imperial law (or know what those laws might be) or to abide by Imperial mandates for genetic purity.

 

The Night Lords were feared as prosecutors of disobedience, not as destroyers of civilisations. The Night Lords were ruthless and scared a world into obedience. The World Eaters simply tore them apart if they resisted. That is why Imperial worlds feared the presence of the Night Lords, and why non-Imperial worlds feared the wrath of the World Eaters.

 

 

Then out of curiosity, how did the Night Lords crusade if all they did was monitor Imperial Worlds?

[Legatus]

 

Okay so what can we judge them on then? How about gene-seed.

 

If we consider gene-seed: In the Index Astartes Articles, the Emperor's Children, the Ultramarines, and the Dark Angels are noted for their pure gene-seed. In that order. (Of course, ten thousand years later, the gene-seed of the Emperor's Children is corrupted beyond redemption.)

 

The Night Lords gene-seed is described as "surprisingly pure", but that is when compared to other traitor Legions, whose gene-seed is usually heavily corrupted due to their warp exposure.

 

 

 

Then out of curiosity, how did the Night Lords crusade if all they did was monitor Imperial Worlds?

 

It doesn't say that it was "all they did". Just that it happened on occasion. I imagine it was not that unlikely that a Legion would revisit the worlds they had liberated. The world might be under attack from alien invaders, or after a few decades, the third generation government might attempt to seceed from the Imperium, or just may be unreliable on tithes and laws.

[Kol Saresk]

Uh-huh, so the part where it only says "civilized worlds" two times, one being in relation to crusading means what exactly? That civilized worlds were only Imperial worlds?

[Marshal Rohr]

But how much of this is current information, Legs? That is what really counts nowadays. IIRC the Index Astartes article didn't mention anything about the World Eaters being proficient in combined armor, infantry, and air blitzkrieg tactics like the HH books do, or their surprisingly coherent rank structure. 

 

 

Edit: 

 

If the argument being made is that previously the Night Lords played a different role than the expanded lore, sure that is valid. But the IA articles were broader and shallower in depth than the HH books, and the 'facts' about the legions have progressed significantly (for the better, IMO). Applying the older epistemology of the Index Astartes Article, Titanicus, and the other snatches of information we had prior to the beginning of the HH series and comparing them to what we have now, which is revelatory in nature, isn't fair.

[Kol Saresk]

 

But how much of this is current information, Legs? That is what really counts nowadays. IIRC the Index Astartes article didn't mention anything about the World Eaters being proficient in combined armor, infantry, and air blitzkrieg tactics like the HH books do, or their surprisingly coherent rank structure.

Sure it did. I mean, granted it is written by the Imperium in 40K so it might just be a little biased an it might be more than a bit misinformed due to the lack of so much information but I'm sure that's all there. Somewhere.

[Legatus]

 

Uh-huh, so the part where it only says "civilized worlds" two times, one being in relation to crusading means what exactly? That civilized worlds were only Imperial worlds?

 

Those that payed outstanding tithes and ceased activities not in line with Imperial regulations when hearing that the Night Lords were near most certainly were.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Uh-huh, so the part where it only says "civilized worlds" two times, one being in relation to crusading means what exactly? That civilized worlds were only Imperial worlds?

Those that payed outstanding tithes and ceased activities not in line with Imperial regulations when hearing that the Night Lords were near most certainly were.

So worlds that were not a part of the Imperium were exempt from Imperial Law when the Expedition Fleets came a-knocking?

[Wade Garrett]

Objection!

 

The War Hounds had a coherent rank structure, combined arms tactics, and so on.

 

The story of the World Eaters is how all that fell apart into feral packs rampaging across the battlefield, with the occasional flash of the old style the exception rather than the rule.

 

Source: Betrayer

 

Using the modified criteria laid out earlier, the Pre-Laer Emperor's Children were a small Legion, had pure gene seed, kept up with the other Legions in terms of butt kicked and names taken without selling out to Tzeencht, were recognized for their excellence in tactics and swordsmanship by Primarchs as diverse as Guilliman and Lorgar, and were the only Legion the Emperor honored with right to wear the Palatine Aquila.

 

That Slaanesh would later turn them into gibbering degenerates who kill more of their own troops and their allies than the enemy is irrelevant.

[Veteran Sergeant]

But how much of this is current information, Legs? That is what really counts nowadays. IIRC the Index Astartes article didn't mention anything about the World Eaters being proficient in combined armor, infantry, and air blitzkrieg tactics like the HH books do,

Wat?

 

People proficient in combined armor, infantry and aerial blitzkrieg tactics are gravely offended, and you should apologize.

 

If anything, Betrayer was a stark example of just how silly the entire concept of the World Eaters is, and how they should have ground themselves away to nothing within a few campaigns.

[Stormborn]

Forge World make lovely models.  However, their fluff and rules usually scores quite high on the Ward/Kelly scale of "you said what?"  So I think FW need to treated as subjective rather than objective source.  I 'd go with BL (Except for Thorpe, McNeil and Kyme) and the IA artices on fluff and FW for who has the coolest looking miniatrues. 

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

But how much of this is current information, Legs? That is what really counts nowadays. IIRC the Index Astartes article didn't mention anything about the World Eaters being proficient in combined armor, infantry, and air blitzkrieg tactics like the HH books do,

Wat?

 

People proficient in combined armor, infantry and aerial blitzkrieg tactics are gravely offended, and you should apologize.

 

If anything, Betrayer was a stark example of just how silly the entire concept of the World Eaters is, and how they should have ground themselves away to nothing within a few campaigns.

 

 

You haven't read Betrayal yet, have you?

[Kol Saresk]

Forge World make lovely models. However, their fluff and rules usually scores quite high on the Ward/Kelly scale of "you said what?" So I think FW need to treated as subjective rather than objective source. I 'd go with BL (Except for Thorpe, McNeil and Kyme) and the IA artices on fluff and FW for who has the coolest looking miniatrues.

Actually considering a lot of the Forgeworld material is using the BL authors as sources it is pretty much the same stuff, just with Alan Bligh's words. So....... yeah. Or we could keep listening to the fluff that was written ten thousand years after the fact by a biased historian who was working mostly off of opinion rather than recorded fact due to recorded fact being turned to dust in the ten thousand year decline of the Imperium.

[Marshal Rohr]

Forge World make lovely models.  However, their fluff and rules usually scores quite high on the Ward/Kelly scale of "you said what?"  So I think FW need to treated as subjective rather than objective source.  I 'd go with BL (Except for Thorpe, McNeil and Kyme) and the IA artices on fluff and FW for who has the coolest looking miniatrues. 

 

Im sure that is one solution... of many.

[Stormborn]

Solutions are good?  Alternatively we could decide what each legion is best at (i.e Emperor's Children are best at wearing purple power armour) and then say which 2 legions would take 2nd and 3rd place etc. in these categories discard the top place see who averages out at the best overall.

[Kol Saresk]

Solutions are good?  Alternatively we could decide what each legion is best at (i.e Emperor's Children are best at wearing purple power armour) and then say which 2 legions would take 2nd and 3rd place etc. in these categories discard the top place see who averages out at the best overall.

Which isn't working out to well since the question asks us who we think will win and at the end of the day there will always be the "<y daddy can beat up your daddy" factor.

[helterskelter]

In that case, if vulkan wasn't too busy being a care bear, his claim of being the strongest primarch, plus no death, he's going to rank quite high if he could theorectically strong arm his brothers. Perturabo up there for his ability to poke someone and send them flying. Guilleman for monologing his oponents to distraction. Angron pre demon, he put down several of his brothers on their backsides. I think those are my contenders

[Legatus]

 

So worlds that were not a part of the Imperium were exempt from Imperial Law when the Expedition Fleets came a-knocking?

 

I am sure as soon as they are included into the Imperial fold they will be made fully aware of the Imperial legal system. Until that happens, you cannot really expect them to abide by it, can you?

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

So worlds that were not a part of the Imperium were exempt from Imperial Law when the Expedition Fleets came a-knocking?

 

I am sure as soon as they are included into the Imperial fold they will be made fully aware of the Imperial legal system. Until that happens, you cannot really expect them to abide by it, can you?

 

 

Considering that this is an Imperium that sees itself as the manifold destiny of Humanity and that all of Mankind is under its rule and it just doesn't know it yet and it enforces this rule upon "newly subjected" worlds with gene-forged monsters made from the bodies and minds of children, why would I expect them to think and/or act in anything that even resembles rationality?

 

EDIT: It also needs to be pointed out that Curze grew up on a world with no laws. And yet he still expected Nostramo to obey the laws that he decided should exist and taught those laws through public executions.

[Hyaenidae]

Forge World make lovely models.  However, their fluff and rules usually scores quite high on the Ward/Kelly scale of "you said what?"  So I think FW need to treated as subjective rather than objective source.  I 'd go with BL (Except for Thorpe, McNeil and Kyme) and the IA artices on fluff and FW for who has the coolest looking miniatrues. 

 

S... Seriously? I really, really would like an example from you of the FW fluff being more blown out of proportion than orbital-dropped Land Raiders, Mary Sue Grey Knights, Wolves riding wolves, and Ultramarines and Blood Angels giving out hugs and candy to xenos.

[depthcharge12]

 

 

Maybe we can point out that these worlds are non-compliant, which would also include both disobedient Imperial and non-Imperial worlds?

 But the Index Astartes does not include non-imperial worlds. Non-imperial worlds have no outstanding tithes to pay, have no reason to abide by Imperial law (or know what those laws might be) or to abide by Imperial mandates for genetic purity. The Night Lords were feared as prosecutors of disobedience, not as destroyers of civilisations. The Night Lords were ruthless and scared a world into obedience. The World Eaters simply tore them apart if they resisted. That is why Imperial worlds feared the presence of the Night Lords, and why non-Imperial worlds feared the wrath of the World Eaters.

Then out of curiosity, how did the Night Lords crusade if all they did was monitor Imperial Worlds?

 

 

*cues ADB*

 

 

Yeah BRO! Where's our Night Lord Horus heresy book huh?!

[GhostMalone]

A utopia that will not be tainted by the likes of naysayers!

 

That's what the heresy is, it portrays realistic military capabilities of space marines and other dispositions. Not hampered by ohh we need something heavy so you space marine in your power armour jump into this bigger suit of power armour!

 

Not let's use gene forging superior tactics and advancement in weaponry such as volkite or gravitational weaponry to take that stuff on

[Legatus]

 

Considering that this is an Imperium that sees itself as the manifold destiny of Humanity and that all of Mankind is under its rule and it just doesn't know it yet and it enforces this rule upon "newly subjected" worlds with gene-forged monsters made from the bodies and minds of children, why would I expect them to think and/or act in anything that even resembles rationality?

 

Because the issue was not about how the Imperium reacts to newly discovered worlds, but how said newly discovered world reacted to nearby Imperial forces. In this case a new, heretofore unconquered world where the Night Lords happen to be rumoured to be nearby. You are suggesting that without any further contact, said world would then, all by itself, suddenly reorganize itself to operate according to the laws and madnates of the Imperium.

 

I am instead pointing out that for the world to be fully aware of and even able to operate under the Imperial laws and mandates, the would would already have to have been previously discovered by the Imperium.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Considering that this is an Imperium that sees itself as the manifold destiny of Humanity and that all of Mankind is under its rule and it just doesn't know it yet and it enforces this rule upon "newly subjected" worlds with gene-forged monsters made from the bodies and minds of children, why would I expect them to think and/or act in anything that even resembles rationality?

 

Because the issue was not about how the Imperium reacts to newly discovered worlds, but how said newly discovered world reacted to nearby Imperial forces. In this case a new, heretofore unconquered world where the Night Lords happen to be rumoured to be nearby. You are suggesting that without any further contact, said world would then, all by itself, suddenly reorganize itself to operate according to the laws and madnates of the Imperium.

 

I am instead pointing out that for the world to be fully aware of and even able to operate under the Imperial laws and mandates, the would would already have to have been previously discovered by the Imperium.

 

 

Not really. If the Night Lords' reputation becomes spread out, then all a planet would have to is learn from the mistakes of the other planets. Even when the Night Lords were going psycho-crazy and rampaging in the Eastern Fringe while using even the flimsiest excuses to invade a planet, there were still some who gave the Night Lords no excuse for an invasion. Obviously word was traveling somehow. And this is also the Night Haunter. The Primarch who punished people of a planet with no laws for disobeying laws only he knew. Sounds like the kind of guy who would go "Yeah, ignorance is no excuse." rather than the guy who would be "This is your one-time warning."

[Legatus]

 

I really, really would like an example from you of the FW fluff being more blown out of proportion than orbital-dropped Land Raiders, Mary Sue Grey Knights, Wolves riding wolves, and Ultramarines and Blood Angels giving out hugs and candy to xenos.

 

Well, the Minotaurs fluff was pretty bad. A Minotaur Captain trying to get to the Captain of a successor Chapter by insulting Marneus Calgar? Suspicions that the Minotaurs have ties to the High Lords, with the Inquisition being unable to find out anything about it? Even though the Inquisition has a permanent seat among the High Lords? And even though the High Lords can already command over all the Space Marine Chapters? 

 

Then there was the bit about the original Night Lords Legion consisting largely of criminal subjects, even before the Nostraman recruits.