The best legion (please don't hurt me...) *Hides*

[Legatus]

 

If the Night Lords' reputation becomes spread out, then all a planet would have to is learn from the mistakes of the other planets. Even when the Night Lords were going psycho-crazy and rampaging in the Eastern Fringe while using even the flimsiest excuses to invade a planet, there were still some who gave the Night Lords no excuse for an invasion. Obviously word was traveling somehow.

 

There is a difference between "word travelling" of the Emperor of Mankind's undefeatable armies, and a world that had before been cut off from the rest of the galaxy acquiring complete documentation of the Imperial legal system. Plus note about what tithes are expected of them. All without themselves having ever been in contact with said rumoured space Imperium.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

Considering that this is an Imperium that sees itself as the manifold destiny of Humanity and that all of Mankind is under its rule and it just doesn't know it yet and it enforces this rule upon "newly subjected" worlds with gene-forged monsters made from the bodies and minds of children, why would I expect them to think and/or act in anything that even resembles rationality?

 

Because the issue was not about how the Imperium reacts to newly discovered worlds, but how said newly discovered world reacted to nearby Imperial forces. In this case a new, heretofore unconquered world where the Night Lords happen to be rumoured to be nearby. You are suggesting that without any further contact, said world would then, all by itself, suddenly reorganize itself to operate according to the laws and madnates of the Imperium.

 

I am instead pointing out that for the world to be fully aware of and even able to operate under the Imperial laws and mandates, the would would already have to have been previously discovered by the Imperium.

 

And? Isn't that the case?

 

How many worlds did Legions bring to Compliance where they were the first contact? Wasn't that the whole point of Rogue Traders and other outriding elements of the Imperium? 

 

When the Night Lords arrived in system, the worlds should already be aware of the Imperium and it's intent, especially if they retained some of their former ties with nearby worlds as many appear to have done. Hence them knowing anything about the Night Lords and their reputation. And as far as the Imperium was concerned, they were already Imperial worlds. Whether or not they know the details is irrelevant. It's tantamount to a guy paying potential ransomers a few million dollars in expectation of them kidnapping his daughter for a few million dollars. He might not know exactly how much is wanted, but just take the damn money and leave us alone. Whatever you want, you can have it.

 

 

 

I really, really would like an example from you of the FW fluff being more blown out of proportion than orbital-dropped Land Raiders, Mary Sue Grey Knights, Wolves riding wolves, and Ultramarines and Blood Angels giving out hugs and candy to xenos.

 

Well, the Minotaurs fluff was pretty bad. A Minotaur Captain trying to get to the Captain of a successor Chapter by insulting Marneus Calgar? Suspicions that the Minotaurs have ties to the High Lords, with the Inquisition being unable to find out anything about it? Even though the Inquisition has a permanent seat among the High Lords? And even though the High Lords can already command over all the Space Marine Chapters? 

 

Then there was the bit about the original Night Lords Legion consisting largely of criminal subjects, even before the Nostraman recruits.

 

Eh, the Minotaurs fit well enough in the over-all fluff. I'm sure if somebody had DIY'ed that Chapter people would have cried that it was a special snowflake, but then most people who cry such things tend to be people best ignored. Especially the main argument of "If they were so great, why haven't I heard of them." You haven't heard of them because they are a DIY, what does that have to do with anything?

 

And the whole Night Lords/criminal recruitment thing is still not the case.

[Kol Saresk]

The Night Lords IA article points to the Night Lords Legion having a less than stellar beginning. So I fail to see the problem there. Specific wording is

The Night Lords have always belonged to the darkness. Ever since their inception, the black seed of their Primarch infected them with violence and despair.

[Legatus]

How many worlds did Legions bring to Compliance where they were the first contact? Wasn't that the whole point of Rogue Traders and other outriding elements of the Imperium?

I am not sure Rogue Traders approached the governments of planets in an official manner and informed them that they are hereby considered a part of the human Imperium, and are expected to pay a regular tithe. And if they did that, then the world would either officially accept that or decline it, at which point it is either considered compliant/Imperial or not.

 

Here is an example where a world is introduced into the Imperium:

 

"On many worlds, a blunt explanation of the destructive might at his disposal and a day's parley with the planetary leaders was enough to bring them into the Imperial fold without bloodshed."

- Index Astartes Luna Wolves

Very simple. The Primarch does something, then a world is joining the Imperium.

 

Here is another example:

 

"The Liber Malum speaks of whole systems surrendering wholesale rather than face the wrath of the World Eaters."

- Index Astartes World Eaters

Again. Very simple. Worlds (systems) surrendering to the Imperium.

 

Here is an example where no new world is introduced into the Imperium:

 

"the mere mention of their presence in a system [was] enough to ensure that civilised planets paid all outstanding tithes, ceased all illegal activity completely and killed those who bore deformities rather than invite a purge from the Night Lords."

- Index Astartes Night Lords

It doesn't briefly say "worlds joined the Imperial fold" or "surrendered". Because that is not what happened. Worlds made haste to pay their outstanding tithes, and to display no irregularities or questionable records.

 

As if "paying outstanding tithes" and "ceasing illegal activities completely" was not absolutely clear, the Luna Wolves and World Eaters articles speak of "cases where that happened", while the Night Lords article speaks of the general rule. Everywhere the Night Lords went, the Imperial worlds made sure to be extra nice. It was not the rule that newly discovered worlds surrendered freely to the Imperium, just because the Night Lords were mentioned. It would be ridiculous if that had been the rule. But then that is not what the Index Astartes is saying.

 

 

Edir:

 

The Night Lords IA article points to the Night Lords Legion having a less than stellar beginning. So I fail to see the problem there. Specific wording is

 

The Night Lords have always belonged to the darkness. Ever since their inception, the black seed of their Primarch infected them with violence and despair.

Emphasis mine. It is telling us why they have allways belonged to the darkness. Because it was in their genes. Not because they were formed from criminal recruits from the beginning.

[Marshal Rohr]

I would also imagine it has something to do with the recruits being the troglodyte descendants of a prison in the depths of a dried up ocean trench that never saw light too. 

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

The Night Lords IA article points to the Night Lords Legion having a less than stellar beginning. So I fail to see the problem there. Specific wording is

The Night Lords have always belonged to the darkness. Ever since their inception, the black seed of their Primarch infected them with violence and despair.

 

 

Emphasis mine. It is telling us why they have allways belonged to the darkness. Because it was in their genes. Not because they were formed from criminal recruits from the beginning.

 

 

Are you sure you want to say it was in their genes and not the gene-seed?

[Wade Garrett]

I can see it now....

 

"My Legion is poisoning itself." Curze hissed. "Its ranks are polluted with murderers, rapists and the worst kind of scum..."

 

"Oi, that's not right at all!" piped up Captain Aerth Solborn. "The whole lot of us first recruits was kiddies wot the Emperor picked special like outta this underground lock up for being scary and..."

 

Curze's left eye twitched. Once.

......................

 

"My legion is poisoning itself." Curze hissed, wiping at some of the viscera on his face. It would have been more effective if he hadn't used the former Captain Aerth's spleen to wipe with, but newly promoted Captain Sahaal had no intention of correcting him.

 

"Yes. Poisoned. Nothing like the good old days." The self styled Talonmaster agreed. He might claim to have invented Assault Marines, but no one ever accused him of being suicidal.

[Kol Saresk]

I can see it now....

 

"My Legion is poisoning itself." Curze hissed. "Its ranks are polluted with murderers, rapists and the worst kind of scum..."

 

"Oi, that's not right at all!" piped up Captain Aerth Solborn. "The whole lot of us first recruits was kiddies wot the Emperor picked special like outta this underground lock up for being scary and..."

 

Curze's left eye twitched. Once.

......................

 

"My legion is poisoning itself." Curze hissed, wiping at some of the viscera on his face. It would have been more effective if he hadn't used the former Captain Aerth's spleen to wipe with, but newly promoted Captain Sahaal had no intention of correcting him.

 

"Yes. Poisoned. Nothing like the good old days." The self styled Talonmaster agreed. He might claim to have invented Assault Marines, but no one ever accused him of being suicidal.

When you go from a sharp scalpel to a blunt hammer, something went wrong. :P

[Veteran Sergeant]

 

 

But how much of this is current information, Legs? That is what really counts nowadays. IIRC the Index Astartes article didn't mention anything about the World Eaters being proficient in combined armor, infantry, and air blitzkrieg tactics like the HH books do,

Wat?

 

People proficient in combined armor, infantry and aerial blitzkrieg tactics are gravely offended, and you should apologize.

 

If anything, Betrayer was a stark example of just how silly the entire concept of the World Eaters is, and how they should have ground themselves away to nothing within a few campaigns.

 

You haven't read Betrayal yet, have you?

LOL.

 

"Attack that well-defended, anachronistic Ultramarines shield wall across open ground! Win with the power of angry! It worked for the Gauls!"

 

That battle that acts as page-filler for the first half of Betrayer is perhaps the single most ludicrous example of "Because I said so" in the Horus Heresy series. Almost none of it makes sense, and it's capped off by a primarch taking a plasma blaster shot to the face, and another one playing Mighty Mouse with a Warhound Titan. I read it all right, and most of the time I kinda wished I hadn't.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

 

 

 

But how much of this is current information, Legs? That is what really counts nowadays. IIRC the Index Astartes article didn't mention anything about the World Eaters being proficient in combined armor, infantry, and air blitzkrieg tactics like the HH books do,

Wat?

 

People proficient in combined armor, infantry and aerial blitzkrieg tactics are gravely offended, and you should apologize.

 

If anything, Betrayer was a stark example of just how silly the entire concept of the World Eaters is, and how they should have ground themselves away to nothing within a few campaigns.

 

 

You haven't read Betrayal yet, have you?

 

 

LOL.

 

"Attack that well-defended, anachronistic Ultramarines shield wall across open ground! Win with the power of angry! It worked for the Gauls!"

 

That battle that acts as page-filler for the first half of Betrayer is perhaps the single most ludicrous example of "Because I said so" in the Horus Heresy series. Almost none of it makes sense, and it's capped off by a primarch taking a plasma blaster shot to the face, and another one playing Mighty Mouse with a Warhound Titan. I read it all right, and most of the time I kinda wished I hadn't.

 

 

Not Betrayer, Betrayal. Two completely different books with similar titles.

[Marshal Rohr]

Did A D-B ever publish the staff ride for Armatura? The one with the detailed plans of the campaign to let us know exactly what the World Eaters did, how much they shelled the Ultra's first, how much armor was used to break open their line, and so on?

[Hyaenidae]

I acknowledge no fane, nor deity; only the clarity of Forgeworld's Horus Heresy books.

[Surrender_Monkey]

The Imperial Fists, they were the only Legion to never fail the Emperor, ever.

Except when they let him die.

They built him a nigh-impregnable fortress and held it against overwhelming odds. If the Emperor wants to leave that fortress then refuse to fight his son properly until the last possible second then the fault lies squarely with him.

[Kol Saresk]

The Imperial Fists, they were the only Legion to never fail the Emperor, ever.

Except when they let him die.

They built him a nigh-impregnable fortress and held it against overwhelming odds. If the Emperor wants to leave that fortress then refuse to fight his son properly until the last possible second then the fault lies squarely with him.

Tell that to Dorn who blames himself. :D

[Max Power]

I acknowledge no fane, nor deity; only the clarity of Forgeworld's Horus Heresy books.

 

What do you consider Alan Bligh? A prophet? He is spreading the good word of Forge World, and the Heresy, after all. 

 

"And lo, the Bligh did save the 40k gamer from the screamer star, the quad riptide, and the wave serpent spam. As he worked, the gamers did gaze upon his fluff and rules and smiled, for it was good."

 

All hail Bligh.

[Conn Eremon]

I am not sure Rogue Traders approached the governments of planets in an official manner and informed them that they are hereby considered a part of the human Imperium, and are expected to pay a regular tithe. And if they did that, then the world would either officially accept that or decline it, at which point it is either considered compliant/Imperial or not.

It isn't "an Imperial World that is Compliant" or "a non-Compliant World that isn't yet Imperial." It's "an Imperial World that is Compliant to the Imperium or will be."

 

And I'm not sure why the Rogue Traders wouldn't do what they were formed to do, which was roam ahead and pave the way. They aren't their 40k counterparts yet, all space-faring dynasties of wealthy traders. Then I would understand them just showing up, selling some furs or something, then taking off without letting them know they're about to get kneed in the groin by an eight-foot tall man-child in full plate armor.

Here is an example where a world is introduced into the Imperium:

"On many worlds, a blunt explanation of the destructive might at his disposal and a day's parley with the planetary leaders was enough to bring them into the Imperial fold without bloodshed."

- Index Astartes Luna Wolves

Very simple. The Primarch does something, then a world is joining the Imperium.

 

 

The world is made compliant. It was already an Imperial World, but it hadn't accepted its place yet and needed to be brought into the fold.

Here is another example:

"The Liber Malum speaks of whole systems surrendering wholesale rather than face the wrath of the World Eaters."

- Index Astartes World Eaters

Again. Very simple. Worlds (systems) surrendering to the Imperium.

 

 

This actually agrees with me, considering it openly states that these worlds had knowledge of the WOrld Eaters before they even faced their wrath.

Here is an example where no new world is introduced into the Imperium:

"the mere mention of their presence in a system [was] enough to ensure that civilised planets paid all outstanding tithes, ceased all illegal activity completely and killed those who bore deformities rather than invite a purge from the Night Lords."

- Index Astartes Night Lords

It doesn't briefly say "worlds joined the Imperial fold" or "surrendered". Because that is not what happened. Worlds made haste to pay their outstanding tithes, and to display no irregularities or questionable records.

 

As if "paying outstanding tithes" and "ceasing illegal activities completely" was not absolutely clear, the Luna Wolves and World Eaters articles speak of "cases where that happened", while the Night Lords article speaks of the general rule. Everywhere the Night Lords went, the Imperial worlds made sure to be extra nice. It was not the rule that newly discovered worlds surrendered freely to the Imperium, just because the Night Lords were mentioned. It would be ridiculous if that had been the rule. But then that is not what the Index Astartes is saying.

 

 

It would be ridiculous to say it was the rule that newly discovered worlds surrendered freely to the Imperium. Good thing that's an over-exaggeration of the argument.

 

That said, just because the quotes didn't use the exact same wording doesn't mean they aren't referring to something similar. Even "worlds joined the Imperial fold" or "surrendered" could mean something different between them. Maybe the world surrendered after being nearly obliterated. Maybe the world joined the Imperial fold well after Compliance. More than likely, they are all three referring to the same thing. A non-Compliant world being brought into Compliance. Which doesn't have to mean the same thing as a non-Imperial World being made into an Imperial World.

Emphasis mine. It is telling us why they have allways belonged to the darkness. Because it was in their genes. Not because they were formed from criminal recruits from the beginning.

Which still isn't the case. The fact that the piece talks about criminals and other terms for their like without using them to define the children that were taken as recruits says quite a bit. Breaking it down, they said there were criminals and there were these children. Saying that there are A and B, does not mean A equals B.

[Wade Garrett]

 

"Attack that well-defended, anachronistic Ultramarines shield wall across open ground! Win with the power of angry! It worked for the Gauls!"

 

Does anyone have the E-mail address for the author of The Conquest of Gaul?

 

I need to inform him that his account of a Roman formation cut to bits by mad Frenchmen (p.123-126 of my copy) is unrealistic and reeks of authorial fiat.

[Demus Ragnok]

 

 

"Attack that well-defended, anachronistic Ultramarines shield wall across open ground! Win with the power of angry! It worked for the Gauls!"

Does anyone have the E-mail address for the author of The Conquest of Gaul?

 

I need to inform him that his account of a Roman formation cut to bits by mad Frenchmen (p.123-126 of my copy) is unrealistic and reeks of authorial fiat.

Yeah but didn't the Ultras have artillery support in that example?

[Wade Garrett]

My reading was that the whole point of the shield wall was to screen their Vindicators from the World Eater infantry, yes.

 

Then again, the World Eaters had some armor of their own present, I recall a Malcador tank is specifically mentioned to be rolling forward with the charge, with the Astartes inside no doubt bellowing "DRIVE ME CLOSER! I WANT TO HIT THEM WITH MY SWORD!"

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

 

"Attack that well-defended, anachronistic Ultramarines shield wall across open ground! Win with the power of angry! It worked for the Gauls!"

Does anyone have the E-mail address for the author of The Conquest of Gaul?

 

I need to inform him that his account of a Roman formation cut to bits by mad Frenchmen (p.123-126 of my copy) is unrealistic and reeks of authorial fiat.

Yeah but didn't the Ultras have artillery support in that example?

Yep, a couple hundred Ultramarines with artillery versus a couple thousand World Eaters with chain-axes, grenades and War Hound Titans.

[Veteran Sergeant]

 

 

 

 

But how much of this is current information, Legs? That is what really counts nowadays. IIRC the Index Astartes article didn't mention anything about the World Eaters being proficient in combined armor, infantry, and air blitzkrieg tactics like the HH books do,

Wat?

 

People proficient in combined armor, infantry and aerial blitzkrieg tactics are gravely offended, and you should apologize.

 

If anything, Betrayer was a stark example of just how silly the entire concept of the World Eaters is, and how they should have ground themselves away to nothing within a few campaigns.

 

You haven't read Betrayal yet, have you?

 

LOL.

 

"Attack that well-defended, anachronistic Ultramarines shield wall across open ground! Win with the power of angry! It worked for the Gauls!"

 

That battle that acts as page-filler for the first half of Betrayer is perhaps the single most ludicrous example of "Because I said so" in the Horus Heresy series. Almost none of it makes sense, and it's capped off by a primarch taking a plasma blaster shot to the face, and another one playing Mighty Mouse with a Warhound Titan. I read it all right, and most of the time I kinda wished I hadn't.

 

Not Betrayer, Betrayal. Two completely different books with similar titles.

Are we talking about the Horus Heresy books from FW? 

 

Here's the thing, it's easy to write bad fiction. Most of it is. And Forgeworld's material is pretty average, at best. If it's anybody from the team that wrote IA:8, then you'll have to excuse my soft chuckle about them understanding combined arms doctrine, tactics, or strategy. Forgeworld battles (and W40K battles in general) exist in these entertaining and fairly well-written vacuums. 

 

But the reality is, everything we know about the World Eaters, and everything written up until this point, speaks repeatedly to them being ridiculously two dimensional cartoon characters who get angry and fight like buffoons. So it's entirely possible that Betrayal tries to paint the World Eaters as something else. But then we're just picking and choosing from alternate realities. Personally, I'd love to see a version of the World Eaters that wasn't so ridiculously silly. But they're ridiculously silly and they always have been. Anything else is just more FW fan fiction. You can say anything you want in a piece of fiction. The World Eaters have never actually been shown doing anything of the sort. What in Betrayal gives us any idea of the sort?The Siege of Sarum? Good lord, “Drive the ship closer. I want to get on the ground and hit things with my axes. Feel free to shoot at anything you feel like while I'm gone.”

 

This is, correct me if I'm wrong, the Legion that built a ramp of their own corpses to breach a wall, right?

 

Just because they fought with the use of close support from orbital bombardment doesn't make them proficient at combined arms, lol. Combined arms is about creating a synergistic effect between the totality of force at an army's disposal. Not simply all aspects being present at any given time. Honestly, when you think about it, it's far more akin to the rest of the commanders standing back, shaking their heads, and figuring they'll make the best with what they had. The World Eaters are going to be down there, shoot around them and try not to hit them. By the same token “Throw my drop pods at the middle of the enemy” is not “proficiency in aerial blitzkrieg”. Unless, by “proficiency” we're just saying “rudimentary conceptual understanding” or “by strictest dictionary definition”.

 

I mean, back to the previous example. If they had to build a ramp to get over a wall, it means that the wall was too tall for them to simply climb over. Now think about how many bodies it would take to create a ramp. And we're trying to convince me the World Eaters weren't destined to grind themselves away to nothing in a few short campaigns, and that's a demonstration of infantry tactics? I guess it's a tactic, and they were using infantry. I mean, it's fairly obvious that the majority of the planets in the Great Crusade said “Huh, giant space fleet, unpleasant seven and a half foot tall dudes in your army? Where do we sign up for this 'Imperium' thing?” and just complied. Otherwise it would be awfully hard to conquer a whole galaxy in 200 years with only a couple million or so Space Marines. So maybe the World Eaters did a lot of growling, while the diplomats just said “Or else we unleash those twitchy guys back there.”  

 

The reality is the World Eaters died more than any other Legion. They racked up excessive casualties in every battle, killed more of their recruits than any other legion, killed eachother in training, could kill one another for promotions (always a good idea to determine rank by prowess in singular combat. And people sometimes get fussy when I jokingly refer to the WE as the “Orks of Space Marines”), and then jammed psycho-modules into everyone's nuggets that had a tendency to drive a sizable percentage of them insane. 

 

And somehow, in imaginary Games Workshop land, they managed to maintain a “higher mid level” range of numbers compared to the other legions?  Oooooooookay.

[Veteran Sergeant]

 

 

"Attack that well-defended, anachronistic Ultramarines shield wall across open ground! Win with the power of angry! It worked for the Gauls!"

Does anyone have the E-mail address for the author of The Conquest of Gaul?

 

I need to inform him that his account of a Roman formation cut to bits by mad Frenchmen (p.123-126 of my copy) is unrealistic and reeks of authorial fiat.

And yet the Gauls were effectively conquered in seven years. Hope I didn't spoil it for you.

 

Of course, I assume you're referring to the defeat of Sabinus, by a force with vastly suprior numbers which caught him in a disorganized march and had surrounded his forces, and engaged in multiple feints, and hit and run attacks with javelins and cavalry. Which is totally the same thing as a frontal attack on a prepared defensive formation.

[GhostMalone]

Seriously this argument again...

Remember what ADB said once a hole was breached the wall collapsed it's not like the WE came out unscathed....

 

Us WE fanatics know attrition rates are high

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

 

"Attack that well-defended, anachronistic Ultramarines shield wall across open ground! Win with the power of angry! It worked for the Gauls!"

Does anyone have the E-mail address for the author of The Conquest of Gaul?

 

I need to inform him that his account of a Roman formation cut to bits by mad Frenchmen (p.123-126 of my copy) is unrealistic and reeks of authorial fiat.

 

 

And yet the Gauls were effectively conquered in seven years. Hope I didn't spoil it for you.

 

Of course, I assume you're referring to the defeat of Sabinus, by a force with vastly suprior numbers which caught him in a disorganized march and had surrounded his forces, and engaged in multiple feints, and hit and run attacks with javelins and cavalry. Which is totally the same thing as a frontal attack on a prepared defensive formation.

 

 

Well, let's see. A numerically superior foe with close combat weaponry and Titan support versus the numerically inferior shield wall with only Vindicators? Better get the die out to see if the World Eaters can roll some serious 6s for those chain axes.

[Kol Saresk]

Reduced for boardspace

So I take that you have experience in actual combat situations and you would know from firsthand experience how tactics and things would work? I ask because I'm a civilian and obviously no one at Forgeworld or BL know what they're doing. So how would you write it in their shoes? Would you perhaps change the numerically inferior Ultramarines with Vindicators versus the numerically superior World Eaters and Titans to the World Eaters and Titans losing even with superior numbers and firepower?

 

How would you change the siege of Sarum where the vanguard landed while the fleet destroyed the orbital defenses before launching a danger-close orbital bombardment to clear a landing zone followed by reinforcements which where then joined by the Red Priests of Sarum and their warmachines to something more realistic?

 

How would you make the World Eaters stop being 2-D cartoon characters?