The best legion (please don't hurt me...) *Hides*

[GhostMalone]

^^^ what Kol said, I get people see them as idiots and madmen but the fact is they aren't, when the nails aren't singing and they maintain cognitive functions they are genius predators always trying to find the quickest way to kill and hunt their prey.

 

If it takes an armoured spear tip or a drop pod assault or even dare I say it a recon mission to allow them to get at close quarters they adapt in order to kill

[Kol Saresk]

I didn't say anything. I just asked how these obviously unrealistic portrayals of a fictional battle involving nine-foot tall, gene-bred children who were then implanted with pain-engines that make them better close combat fighters should have gone under these circumstances should have gone. And since Veteran Sergeant seems to know a thing or two about creating quality fluff(or at least that is the impression I am getting) how he would fix the 2-dimensional overview of the World Eaters. Since Alan Bligh and AD-B apparently can't.

[Hyaenidae]

Vet. Sgt.:A better question would be, what exactly do you expect? You spend a lot of effort ridiculing a non-existent space opera full of non-existent psychic powers for a lack of realism, and mocking the company for the models they create, and the authors and editors for a lack of proper military experience and a degree in military history. Some expectations will forever be unrealistic, especially from a franchise that specializes in little plastic toy men.

[GhostMalone]

Because were bringing a 21st century rationality to technology and science and warfare tactics that are not yet truly grasped in a fictional setting.

 

P.s. I know Kol I just was saying that I agree with the fact that ADB did explain previously on this subject and that if he's wrong to be provided with a realistic outcome from someone that may have experience in real life scenarios

[A D-B]

 

 

 

But how much of this is current information, Legs? That is what really counts nowadays. IIRC the Index Astartes article didn't mention anything about the World Eaters being proficient in combined armor, infantry, and air blitzkrieg tactics like the HH books do,

Wat?

 

People proficient in combined armor, infantry and aerial blitzkrieg tactics are gravely offended, and you should apologize.

 

If anything, Betrayer was a stark example of just how silly the entire concept of the World Eaters is, and how they should have ground themselves away to nothing within a few campaigns.

 

You haven't read Betrayal yet, have you?

LOL.

 

"Attack that well-defended, anachronistic Ultramarines shield wall across open ground! Win with the power of angry! It worked for the Gauls!"

 

That battle that acts as page-filler for the first half of Betrayer is perhaps the single most ludicrous example of "Because I said so" in the Horus Heresy series. Almost none of it makes sense, and it's capped off by a primarch taking a plasma blaster shot to the face, and another one playing Mighty Mouse with a Warhound Titan. I read it all right, and most of the time I kinda wished I hadn't.

 

I take you pretty seriously, Vet, and you make a lot of good points generally about the difficulties and insanities of the 40K universe, but you're being petty and vitriolic here, and/or outright lying. Lorgar doesn't take a plasma blaster shot to the face, he takes it against a kinetic shield that could just as easily have stood up to the abuse in the game/universe without any stretch of the imagination, and Angron avoids a damaged Titan crushing him for a few seconds, which given the situation isn't even particularly unrealistic in terms of hysterical strength or the countless examples of fantasy and sci-fi tropes of "berserker" characters getting stronger when they're angry.

 

So when you say the World Eaters themselves are ludicrous as a concept, I can see some of your well-reasoned points and nod along. But... I usually take your commentary seriously most of the time, because something like the World Eaters are a pretty hokey concept at the best of times and you've had some awesome meta-discussion about the concept itself, but you're being "misleading" with some of the specifics, here.

[A D-B]

Because were bringing a 21st century rationality to technology and science and warfare tactics that are not yet truly grasped in a fictional setting.

 

P.s. I know Kol I just was saying that I agree with the fact that ADB did explain previously on this subject and that if he's wrong to be provided with a realistic outcome from someone that may have experience in real life scenarios

 

In fairness, I read an insane amount of historical fiction, fantasy, sci-fi, and military history. Practically no author wants to write realistically in terms of modern armies, because the warfare of 40K isn't sending billions and billions of dollars of state of the art equipment and hundreds of thousands of young men into third world countries and curbstomping peasant militia. It's the Bronze Age, the Iron Age, World War I and II, come full circle. It's those tactics with a sci-fi flair. And a lot of those tactics were blunt, awful, and savage.

 

Which is why when an actual soldier criticises that scene, I... don't automatically care. I care (depending on how the point is raised) but context matters. When Veteran Sergeant criticises the actual concept of the World Eaters, and how their existence would be difficult to sustain, let alone rationalise in  the context of the universe itself, it's easy to agree with a lot of it. (And as an example of how seriously I take Vet Sgt's commentary, I have several pages in a Word.doc where I've saved his feedback about various stuff in various novels, because he's a down to earth and makes a lot of good points.) But a great deal of 40K makes no real sense, or isn't internally consistent with itself. See also: practically any sci-fi and fantasy IP over time, but especially high magic / far future examples. When he objects to a shield wall of Ultramarines standing before their artillery, I have a little less sympathy. I'm not a moron. I can recognise the madness in a lot of 40K tactics, and I'm well-read enough to give decent context or add realism a lot of the time. The Crimson Fists on the cover of Rogue Trader are the definitive 40K image, and they're the architects of their own downfall, probably victims of a hundred ways they could be fighting more efficiently to escape. But it's also true to the setting. Maybe it shouldn't happen too often to stretch credulity, but it should still happen. The World Eaters should charge better formations of better equipped soldiers and only win through superior strength, ferocity, and numbers. They just should. And given the context of that entire scene, I'm not worried how it came across at all. The praise far outweighs the negativity by a significant degree. 

 

I won't argue that 40K's not chock-full of inconsistencies, because it is. On one hand, the Codex Astartes is supposed to be the ultimate reference on warfare, compiled by a military genius. On the other hand, there are no detailed remains of it left to the point the people of the universe don't even know what material it was first written on. On a third hand, it's supposed to make the Ultramarines the exemplars of the efficient Space Marine ideal. On a fourth hand, it's also supposed to leave them tactically inflexible and hidebound. Inconsistencies. 40K.

 

One of the things you see a lot of is actual modern day soldiers criticising 40K novel tactics, and in plenty of cases it's absolutely fair. Vet Sgt. is one of the ones that usually does a good job of not assuming 40K warfare is even remotely related to modern warfare, because it's not. To the point it's worth realising that most authors have no interest in making 40K battles feel like realistic warfare. The fight between Hector and Achilles didn't feel like a real duel, but that's the point. It's mythic. 40K is World War II and the Aeneid times a hundred thousand. 

 

As an example, I was in the Flanders Memorial Museum a while back, and it was one of the most moving experiences of my life. I used to work in a pub where one of the regulars was a deck gunner on the HMS Belfast, and was a fountain of stories. Another regular had been a POW in a Japanese camp. My grandfather fought in the war, and told me a handful of stories before he died, too. I read a wealth of military fiction and historical fiction (usually dealing with the Greeks, Romans, Saxons, Normans, etc). That's what I always aim to be true to - the successes and disasters in all of those examples. Giving life to those themes and presenting visions of those conflicts. I have zero interest in being an armchair general. I read for context, for stories, for immersion. I hope (and a lot of my reviews suggest) that I add depth of realism to battles when I write them, but I'm also always looking out for the mythic, grim dark elements that make it 40K and not generic urban future war.

 

You can argue that I suck at it, and I wouldn't even blink. But if you argue that a bunch of cityfighting Ultramarines wouldn't stand in front of their Vidnicators in a shield-wall, or that the World Eaters wouldn't charge and overcome the defenders through (massively overwhelming) numbers, strength, and ferocity; or that a primarch can't summon enough psychic strength to make a telekinetic barrier to defend against the littlest Titan's gun... then... Well, I can live with us not seeing 40K in the exact same way. Win some, lose some. Hit and miss. 

[GhostMalone]

I completely understand brother and agree with your process, I just get frustrated with the same argument being made in 3 differing threads and having to have the argument continue on.

 

I love the use of historical tactics in a scifi setting as it helps with providing a reason behind the mental breakdown of guardsmen marines etc. as you said it's a brutal blunt way of war but it's realistic.

 

My family is literally all bleeding khaki, my brothers mother father uncles etc all have served I was the only one who didn't (medically unfit when I was 16 for sleepwalking) I chose my career in civil construction and engineering and I use that knowledge in representation of my fluff models etc.

 

Some people use their history majors or service history and that's fine but to criticise over something like a shield wall or the WE is knit picking when they're are examples of worst tactical scenarios.

 

I feel though that your writing is solid and it worked well for imagery, I feel that while vet sgt didn't like it that he's not faulted for that it's his own reasoning that made it like that.

 

But it's much better than say corax- soul forge or legion or nemesis.

[Kol Saresk]

Hey! Don't knock Legion! :P

[depthcharge12]

The Horus heresy books are like battlefield to me.

 

 

They are real enough and you have to use strategy, but if you do something crazy, no one gets butt hurt about it.

 

 

 

If you want it to be realistic in the 30k world, I suggest you play arma 3. It's fun but takes way too much time and you don't fight that many guys.

 

 

 

 

You wouldn't buy betrayer I hope if the book was like,

 

" skraal, move 50 meters at bearing 270."

 

"Kargos, maintain 5 meter spread in wedge formation"

 

"Enemy spotted, 200 meters, engaging."

 

3 of Khârn's fire team members were bleeding out and needed immediate medical response. Khârn hid behind a low wall waiting to either be shot himself or waiting for the enemy to go away.

 

 

 

It would sound too robotic. And it's sci-fi bud, 7 foot superhumans encased in ceramic armor should be running towards their enemy. They have no family, plans for after the war, or need to stay alive past any goal.

[Kol Saresk]

Superchildren. Most of these guys just barely made it into puberty before they got jacked up.

[depthcharge12]

Superchildren. Most of these guys just barely made it into puberty before they got jacked up.

 

 

No wonder why they have issues.

[GhostMalone]

I liked legion but it took me 3 reads to figure out what the fluff was happening.

 

ADB has given me an idea....

 

But it may not happen due to my anger but....

 

Nope I'm out I said I'm out...

 

But you guys are my friends....

 

 

No Taron stop backtracking!

(Seriously can't seem to stop checking the B&C)

[Demus Ragnok]

I liked legion but it took me 3 reads to figure out what the fluff was happening.

 

ADB has given me an idea....

 

But it may not happen due to my anger but....

 

Nope I'm out I said I'm out...

 

But you guys are my friends....

 

 

No Taron stop backtracking!

(Seriously can't seem to stop checking the B&C)

One of us one of us one of us one of us one of us one of us

[Wade Garrett]

To be fair, Veteran Sergeant is correct that the destruction of Sabinus's "hollow square" involved a lot more Gauls chucking spears from every conceivable angle than "Drag their blades down with our dead! CHAAARGE!"

 

But it was the first example I could find of Gauls kicking apart a Roman formation. Que sera, sera.

 

I just don't see a shield wall breaking under the charge of a numerically superior enemy who have all been semi lobotomized to the point that anything bar decapitation is "a mere flesh wound" to be that unbelievable.

 

Heck, the Highlanders were winning battles with formation breaking shock charges into melee well into the age of gunpowder.

[GhostMalone]

 

 

I liked legion but it took me 3 reads to figure out what the fluff was happening.

 

ADB has given me an idea....

 

But it may not happen due to my anger but....

 

Nope I'm out I said I'm out...

 

But you guys are my friends....

 

 

No Taron stop backtracking!

(Seriously can't seem to stop checking the B&C)

One of us one of us one of us one of us one of us one of us

Pfft :P

 

I was one of the first addicts ;)

[Kol Saresk]

To be fair, Veteran Sergeant is correct that the destruction of Sabinus's "hollow square" involved a lot more Gauls chucking spears from every conceivable angle than "Drag their blades down with our dead! CHAAARGE!"

 

But it was the first example I could find of Gauls kicking apart a Roman formation. Que sera, sera.

 

I just don't see a shield wall breaking under the charge of a numerically superior enemy who have all been semi lobotomized to the point that anything bar decapitation is "a mere flesh wound" to be that unbelievable.

 

Heck, the Highlanders were winning battles with formation breaking shock charges into melee well into the age of gunpowder.

And what if I were to tell you that the World Eaters used grenades and had Titans?

[GhostMalone]

And axes that sunder :P

[Marshal Rohr]

If you'd like to apply a modicum of theoretical application of basic military tactics the baseline would be that for a space marine, anything a 'real life' soldier would do is ridiculous. There is no point to finding cover from incoming small arms fire from calibres less than those specifically designed to penetrate the armor of medium to heavy armored vehicles. Background wise, the strike plates on every suit of power armor are impregnable to it. Lasers would also apply given the intensity of the beam and the power source. 

 

So this means, fundamentally, the idea of engaging the enemy, achieving superiority of fire, closing, and destroying your attacker wouldn't necessarily be the go to response when engaged. A space marine, theoretically, at distances under 100 meters (IIRC the average distance of most firefights in MOUT situations) would be better suited by immediately turning into the fire, closing the gap, and eliminating the target with a physical attack, instead of a ballistic one. The reasons for this being 1) bolter ammunition is large and requires space on the armor, making it scarce in potentially protracted engagements, meaning conservation of ammo would be a space marines primary worry in any combat environment (since his physiology eliminates the need for food, water, or sleep and resupply from orbit to ground is a logistical triathlon in ANY circumstance). 2 ) A space marine's size and speed means he can not only move faster than a human can track efficiently, but his stride would close the distance quicker too. The enhanced physiology paired with the power armor's neural interface means his acceleration is immediate, much faster than even an athletic human. This is similar to how modern soldiers react to a close ambush. 3 ) A space marine engaging an enemy behind anything but the heaviest of cover can essentially run right through it, forcing the enemy to rely on a layering the zones of fire and writing off the first line as casualties, which would be inexpedient in a firefight unless it was an ambush. 

 

Now, in a marine vs marine fight, the fundamentals would again be different. This is mentioned in the book series and needs no further explanation. But in the case of the Ultramarines shield wall against the Beserkers, the fundamentals behind it seem very simple to me. The benefit of power armor is negated by the use of bolters, meaning the Ultramarines firing into the World Eaters would cause more casualties than if it was just people with lower calibre ballistic weapons. The Ultramarines also benefit from using a thick shield made from the same material as their power armor to kept distance between themselves and the World Eaters in close combat. The Vindicators, obviously, are heavy ordnance meant to be used as assault guns, and also negate the advantages of power armor. That is a simple list of the Ultramarines forming a last second defense against a numerically superior enemy. 

 

The World Eaters have on their side: numerical superiority, armored support, physiological augmentation that increases pain tolerance, and all the numerous benefits mentioned before about the ability to close distances quickly. So granted, the Ultramarines are more than capable of holding against the World Eater initially, especially since the charge was not cohesive or well organized. But, as the World Eaters increased in number within physical striking distance this negates the advantages of the shields, because a World Eater could simply drag the shield down while another attacked the shield bearer, as happened in classical warfare. Also, boarding shields are mounted meaning if an Ultramarine was willing to drop it, he couldn't without engaging a release. So if a World Eater has a hold on the shield, the Ultramarine has only the strength of his arm and the armor against a World Eater who can essentially jerk it any direction he desires with the right approach, center of gravity, and application of force. The press of bodies eliminates the ability to carefully engage targets in the weak spots of their armor with ballistics for fear of hitting an ally or because the proximity of the World Eaters means that the rounds are hitting the strike plates instead of soft armor, negating the bolter's inherent strengths. The mass of World Eaters pressed bodily into the shield wall means the Vindicators cannot fire without backing up first AND hitting their allies. If the tanks crews had been inclined to commit fratricide, the time to back up and readjust the cannon gives the World Eaters more time to break the defensive line. 

 

What it boils down to, is that combat in the setting is not a positive knowledge, it is inherently normative by its very nature. Instead of looking at it and saying, ':cuss, yeah right', try to construct a set of logical parameters in which it could happen. 

[Wade Garrett]

@Kol:

 

Point taken about the Titans, but the only mention of grenades in that sequence is Khârn yelling for his men to throw grenades and being ignored because "Grenades? You mean those things children and Space Wolves use instead of chainaxes?"

[Hyaenidae]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd swear the Word Bearers were fighting as well, yes? Granted, they're not sane either, but they have a semblance of what tactical movement and engagement is supposed to look like at this point still.

[Wade Garrett]

They came late to the party, though.

 

Which was due to, depending on who you ask:

 

A. The Seventeenth deliberately leaving the Twelfth hanging at some uunfathomable whim of their mad gods

 

B. The Twelfth plunging recklessly past the points where they were supposed to link up with the Seventeenth, forcing the Word Bearers to fight through the city on their own while their cousins blundered into every trap and ambush the Ultramarines could set.

[Hyaenidae]

That was the initial fights, though, on Armatura. The one being discussed was on Angron's homeworld.

[Kol Saresk]

@Wade: A D-B has said on at least one occasion that the grenades were a factor. So since this isn't the strange mind-drama of Deliverance Lost and we know that at least Khârn used grenades and it was Skane's job to use rad-grenades, I am of the belief that at least Khârn used grenades.

 

The shield wall charge was on armatura, specifically towards the end of the battle when pretty much all of the ultramarines' forces were dead and/or dying. The Word Bearers were somewhere on the edges of the battle IIRC.

 

IIRC the fight on Angron's homeworld correctly, the Ultramarines theoretically had numerical superiority. Except for the fact that they were landing in isolated groups amongst the Word Bearers and World Eaters with no clear landing sight. Basically, it'd be like parachuting in the middle of an SS battalion during World War II. Even the big Titan they dropped was dragged down fairly quickly.

[Hyaenidae]

Huh. Must've had a brain fart. Fair enough, thanks Kol.

[BassWave]

Emperor's Children were the best legion. Clearly the Emperor in his infinite wisdom felt that the III legion, out of all his other creations, deserved to be called His children and wear His symbol. There must have been a reason. Considering what they were able to accomplish despite being a smaller legion is pretty impressive. Because of this, their fall was the most tragic (imo). So much potential greatness lost. Their color scheme is also the best. Gotta love me some regal purple :D

 

And no, the irony in my statement is not lost on me... Don't get me wrong, I love the X. I don't like the Iron Hands because I think they are the best, I love their personality, their look, and OMG ROBOTS. And while they were amongst the most powerful legions in their prime, a couple emp bombs would see them hosed as their heavy use of equipment is what makes them so potent.