The best legion (please don't hurt me...) *Hides*

[Stormborn]

 

Forge World make lovely models.  However, their fluff and rules usually scores quite high on the Ward/Kelly scale of "you said what?"  So I think FW need to treated as subjective rather than objective source.  I 'd go with BL (Except for Thorpe, McNeil and Kyme) and the IA artices on fluff and FW for who has the coolest looking miniatrues. 

 

S... Seriously? I really, really would like an example from you of the FW fluff being more blown out of proportion than orbital-dropped Land Raiders, Mary Sue Grey Knights, Wolves riding wolves, and Ultramarines and Blood Angels giving out hugs and candy to xenos.

 

I'm not saying FW fluff is as bad as ward and kelly regularly produce just that their fluff can be a bit overblown as mentioned elsewhere the minotaurs are well over the top.  Their 1st company can all be equipped with TDA, unlimited recruits, bucket loads of tanks.  The space sharks spring to mind as well with their unknown geneseed, lost in the warp, mass brainwashing of recruits.  The red hunters.  THE EXORCISTS just started to read their entry in Badab War 2 and had to give up.  I take it back give me ward/kelly any day.

 

Kol I don't read the OP's question as who would win, as nobody wins that is an established fact.  The question is who is the best legion?  winning and being the best aren't the same thing.

 

Helterskelter the question isn't who is the best primarch, it is who is the best legion.  As I understand it the primarchs are all flawed as they each represent only a part of the emperor.  Plus we know who the best primarch was.  It was Horus that is why he was made warmaster had erebus & co. not stuck their oar in the HH probably wouldn't have happened.

[Kol Saresk]

I don't recall saying it was a "who wins" scenario. It's a "who do you(the reader) think is the best Legion and why" scenario. That comes down to personal opinion, which ultimately goes back to the "my daddy vs your daddy" scenario not because it is a "who will win", but because "i think my daddy is better than your daddy".

[Hyaenidae]

Back in the day, most 1st companies could rock TDA. That's not too unusual.

 

What do you mean by unlimited recruits? The only thing I could think of was the Astral Claws, but they had accelerated their recruitment process by skipping psycho-indoc, and stealing gene-seed. Arrogant psychopaths on a war footing don't bother with rules. Beyond that, not sure what you mean.

 

Bucketloads of tanks, yes, but only specific Chapters. Some of those chapters fluff, like the Sons of Medusa, had fluff started by GW, so FW had to work with it. And they did. It wasn't beyond belief, as most their war machines were based on Rhino STC, which has always been a tough, robust, easy maintinence ride.

 

The Sharks, they basically came right out and said they had Raven Guard seed. They entered the war with crappy armour, and beat up equipment, and were not lost in the warp, they were patrolling the edge of human space, above the elliptical plane of the galaxy. Mass brainwashing of recruits is the norm in most chapters as per GW, the Sharks are just in line. None of that is groundbreaking, even. It's pretty standard for a crusading chapter far from support.

 

The Red Hunters, I'll admit, I know nothing about.

 

EDIT: The Exorcists were always weird. GW made them very odd off the bat, FW rolled with it the best they could, and you could tell it was tough. I'll agree it wasn't my cup of tea either, but hell, when you're getting orders from the IP department of the company that signs your checks, you do what they say.

[Kol Saresk]

The Exorcists were made as a "mass-produced GK Chapter via possession" back in 3rd Edition I believe.

 

The Red Hunters are a Pet Inquisition Chapter from the Insignum Astartes, at least that's what I'm told. They're Traitor Hunters or something like that.

 

Both of those Chapters were pretty much "set in stone" by GW. All FW did was work within those boundaries.

[daveNYC]

They did go a bit over the top with the Sharks.  Anytime you put out fluff about how your Astartes are/do X to the extent that even other Astartes are shocked, you've stepped over the line.

 

Edit: At least not without having a heaping spoonful of major downsides along with it.

[Wade Garrett]

What are the downsides to the Salamanders being so sensitive and caring that other Astartes (Black Templars, Marines Malevolent) are shocked?

 

They haven't even had the Inquisition come shoot at Noctrune, for crying out loud!

[daveNYC]

I don't think that those two chapters are shocked, more that they are confused and don't really get it.  Protecting humanity vs. protecting humans.

It's been a while since I read Badab, but I think the Sharks roll in with ancient equipment, a scary look, potentially a fog machine, and beat face so hard that the other Astartes are taken aback.

[Kol Saresk]

They did go a bit over the top with the Sharks.  Anytime you put out fluff about how your Astartes are/do X to the extent that even other Astartes are shocked, you've stepped over the line.

 

Edit: At least not without having a heaping spoonful of major downsides along with it.

Not really. I mean, the average Codex-compliant Chapter is willing to make "necessary sacrifices", however on that same average, they still try to save as many as they can. The citizens of the Imperium, while numerous, are a valuable commodity after all. Resources must be conserved. So when a Chapter comes in and just slaughters everyone, whether it be man, woman, or child and whether or not they are loyal, there is a shock similar to say if the US Army were to just start bombing some of the weapons manufacturers that make their arms within the US border. Sure, their stockpiles might be okay, but they are hurting the US overall. Similar here, the Sharks might be hurting the enemy, but by killing so many, they are also hurting their allies, albeit not in any immediate sense.

 

Besides, the Night Lords and World Eaters idea of how to get things done are supposed to be shocking to most of the other sixteen Legions. No surprise that the tradition is still carried on in 40K by someone.

[Stormborn]

Back in the day, most 1st companies could rock TDA. That's not too unusual.

 

What do you mean by unlimited recruits? The only thing I could think of was the Astral Claws, but they had accelerated their recruitment process by skipping psycho-indoc, and stealing gene-seed. Arrogant psychopaths on a war footing don't bother with rules. Beyond that, not sure what you mean.

 

Bucketloads of tanks, yes, but only specific Chapters. Some of those chapters fluff, like the Sons of Medusa, had fluff started by GW, so FW had to work with it. And they did. It wasn't beyond belief, as most their war machines were based on Rhino STC, which has always been a tough, robust, easy maintinence ride.

 

The Sharks, they basically came right out and said they had Raven Guard seed. They entered the war with crappy armour, and beat up equipment, and were not lost in the warp, they were patrolling the edge of human space, above the elliptical plane of the galaxy. Mass brainwashing of recruits is the norm in most chapters as per GW, the Sharks are just in line. None of that is groundbreaking, even. It's pretty standard for a crusading chapter far from support.

 

The Red Hunters, I'll admit, I know nothing about.

 

EDIT: The Exorcists were always weird. GW made them very odd off the bat, FW rolled with it the best they could, and you could tell it was tough. I'll agree it wasn't my cup of tea either, but hell, when you're getting orders from the IP department of the company that signs your checks, you do what they say.

 

Hi Mr Heathens

 

All my comments were about the minotaurs and space sharks, just to clarify

 

It was my understanding that TDA & MK VIII PA was quite rare for most chapters even from the 1st Founding. Yet the minotaurs who are 21st Founding or later have wide scale access to Mk VIII PA and can field most of their 1st Co. in TDA.  I didn't even think the Ultramarines could do this.

 

The Minotaurs are also observed to operate using large amounts of tanks and heavy arnour and have arapidly replenishing stockpile of them.  As they are fleet based you have to wonder where they keep them (does TDA have big pockets?)

 

The chapter has a rapid influx of recruits from an unkown source.  Seems a bit unlikely for a fleet based chapter.

 

I have to apologise I was wrong about the Space Sharks they don't use extensive brainwashing on recruits. That was the Minotaurs who taken BW2 "use of extremley high levels of programmed psycho indoctrination and and neural-cerebral surgery by the chapter".  "such techniques whilst not inherantly heretical or forbidden at this heavy level of use, are profoundly more invasive and carry a greater risk of damaging the subject physically and mentally than those normally performed by most space marine chapters"

 

I thought a lot of the space sharks fluff was open to interpretation and they come across like world eaters or night lords rather than raven guard.  The inquistions examination of their geneseed found several markers from the uncommon raven guard, I don't see any mention of them naming themselvres as RG successors and it looks like expediency won out and the inquistion approved their joining the loyalist.

 

I didn't know that GW had created the exorcists and red hunters, thanks for clearing that up for me.  Whoever did write the fluff for them should have a severe talking to.  The way I understood it the gey knights are supposedly the ultimate example of a space marine (they have the big E geneseed) yet in the red hunters and exorcist there are two chapters who in someways eclipse them.  If I wrong on this please let me know.

 

That being said I can sort of see where FW were coming from as when the badad war books came out they were unofficial so they need to entice people away from GW's offical chapters.  maybe now that FW is official things will improve, guess I'll will have to wait until the HH Space Wolves are release to see how that plays out.

 

*********

 

Kol aren't the traditions of the world eaters and night lords being kept alive by the world eaters and night lords.  Seems a bit needless for the space sharks to emmulate them.  maybe the inquisition should quit checking the space wolves for fleas, blood angels for love bites and dark angels for being secret alpha legionaires and investigate the space sharks?

[Kol Saresk]

Well, let's put it this way: theoretically a First Company should be able to fully field in Terminator armor.

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/c/ce/CodexOrganisation.jpg

 

Most are able to put out a high percentage. IIRC, the only reason the Ultramarines might have trouble is because their entire First Company was lost when Tyranids attacked Macragge. So it is possible that some of those suits were beyond recovery. But any Chapter, at any time is supposed to be able to field a full Company of Terminators. Some, due to lack of resources(hello Marines Malevolent), extenuating circumstances(possibly Ultramarines) and/or choice in tactics(Good Morning Baal!) will either have reduced capability, utter lack of capability, or just prefer not to do it. So actually, a Chapter being able to field its 1st Company in Terminator isn't that rare. Just look at the Deathwing. The Deathwing is the 1st Company of the DA Chapters.

 

Also, battle barges are rather large. A fleet based Chapter is bound to have supply and transport ships as necessary equipment which can be used to take in and carry any resources they might require as well as carrying any equipment they can't carry on the strike cruisers and battle-barges. A fleet-based Chapter is meant to be self-sufficient since it is not relying on a homeworld to support it and it can't always keep in touch with stable supply routes.

 

As for the Sharks mentality, I don't think they use Nails or have upstanding traditions of murder-duels and wearing the Sinner's Red. If you're talking about them just being brutal, well the Marines Malevolent allowed a civilian camp on Armageddon to occupy the attentions of an Ork attack while they dropped bombs on it. That's the thing about 40K, good guys are supposed to be rare. The person protecting you is just as likely to kill you as the person actively trying to kill you. A defender who cares about you as a living being and not a resource to be used is a rarity, not the rule.

 

For the Grey Knights, well back before their current Codex, they were something of a premium. Small numbers and highly trained to fight daemons. Organized by squads, not brotherhoods. Except in extreme and dire situations, like Angron's Crusade of Fire. The Exorcists were meant to be a mass-produced version, not better. As far as I know, they are still just the mass-produced version of the Grey Knights, but without the "every Astartes is a psyker" rule. Although currently, the Grey Knights seem to have become more..... diluted.

 

As far as the Red Hunters, not entirely too sure. I just know they're an Inquisition Pet. They are probably just a retainer Chapter that follows the orders of the Inquisition without blinking, no more ,no less.

[SteelPaladin]

Stormborn, the Minotaurs are rumored to be at the beck and call of the High Lords of Terra. If this isn't a reason to be more well equipped than normal chapters, I don't know what is. They are the pets of the most powerful men in the Imperium, of course they have the best armor and tanks.

[Stormborn]

Thanks for the corrections folks and thank you for making my point SteelPaladin.  Space Marines shold be independent making them the personal bitches of a high lord is just plain wrong.

 

But let's go back to what the thread asks and discuss who the best legion is.  It is such a simple answer and we all overlooked it.  The best legion is THE SPACE WOLVES, GW hates them so they must be the best.

[Kol Saresk]

I'm pretty sure GW hates the Templars and the Iron Hands so....... actually the X should be the best.

 

Side Note: The High Lords are under the impression that ALL of the Chapters are under their command/

[Hyaenidae]

  The best legion is THE SPACE WOLVES, GW hates them so they must be the best.

 

If we're going along that line of reasoning, the poor neglected White Scars are not only the greatest Legion, but will inherent the Imperium, and the Khan was supposed to be Warmaster.

[GhostMalone]

I've been thinking on it and I think the best legion is actually the word bearers, they destroyed the imperium and gave chaos the win long term

[Kol Saresk]

The best legion is THE SPACE WOLVES, GW hates them so they must be the best.

If we're going along that line of reasoning, the poor neglected White Scars are not only the greatest Legion, but will inherent the Imperium, and the Khan was supposed to be Warmaster.

I could live with that. The dudes are true bikers and bikers are cool.

[Stormborn]

White Scars, Templars, Iron Hands, Salamanders are all lucky they never got the thunder squirrel, canis or lukas.  You don't know hate until GW make you a laughing stock.

 

Can you imagine the family barbeque all the primarchs turns up to the big E's palace in cool tanks or flyers, last to arrive is Leman Russ as his squirrel could find it's nuts.

 

Dear officals of the bolter and chainsword

 

Please excuse me I have severe cabin fever today and promise not to derail any more threads with sillyness.

 

Stormborn

 

Word Bearers the best.  Yes with guys like kor phereon, erebus and lorgar.

[Wade Garrett]

Kor Phaeron:

Put Roboute Guilliman on the floor at Calth

 

Erebus:

Survived a death match with Khârn of the World Eaters. Turned Horus to the Chaos Gods.

 

Lorgar:

Smashes Titans and Stormbirds with the power of his mind. Punched out An'ggrath and didn't even have his legs broken first. Earned Angron's respect.

 

We may not have a spacefighter surfing First Captain or a Primarch who can headbutt his way out of the Warp like the Night Lords, but we do all right for ourselves.

[Hyaenidae]

Kor Phaeron:

Put Roboute Guilliman on the floor at Calth - Then got his heart torn out

 

Erebus:

Survived a death match with Khârn of the World Eaters. - By running for his life. Missing a hand. Turned Horus to the Chaos Gods. - Then had his face skinned off for getting mouthy.

 

Lorgar:

Smashes Titans and Stormbirds with the power of his mind. Punched out An'ggrath and didn't even have his legs broken first. Earned Angron's respect. - Murdered a portion of his Legion for being born on the wrong planet. Sends another portion on a suicide mission to Calth. Gets his ass kicked by a Contemptor Dreadnought, has to beg for help.

 

We may not have a spacefighter surfing First Captain or a Primarch who can headbutt his way out of the Warp like the Night Lords, but we do all right for ourselves. - ish.

[Wade Garrett]

You've got your facts wrong, heathens. One of Lorgar's Gal Vorbak elite was Terran born, and he fought for Aurelian all the way up to Isstvan V. The only source claiming such a purge were Imperial historians post Heresy (a bunch of chuckleheads who couldn't even get the XVII's numbers pinned down) and First Acolyte Ashkannez, a newblood in M41 who thinks the middle of a war with the Imperium and Necrons is a fine time to launch a coup. In short, dupes and morons.

 

As far as Calth goes, aren't you a IV Legionary? When your Legion orders breaching squads to go over the top I doubt they're expecting everyone to make it back in one piece. To condemn Lorgar for using the same methods seems a bit like the pot

speaking to the kettle.

 

As for the Contemptor Dreadnaught, Lorgar was well on his way to punching it to death when twenty Librarians decided to butt in.

 

And he never begged for help. Not on Nuceria, and not against Corax on Isstvan. Say one thing for the Urizen, say that he's as willing to die for his cause as he is to sacrifice others for it.

[Hyaenidae]

You've got your facts wrong, heathens. One of Lorgar's Gal Vorbak elite was Terran born, and he fought for Aurelian all the way up to Isstvan V. The only source claiming such a purge were Imperial historians post Heresy (a bunch of chuckleheads who couldn't even get the XVII's numbers pinned down) and First Acolyte Ashkannez, a newblood in M41 who thinks the middle of a war with the Imperium and Necrons is a fine time to launch a coup. In short, dupes and morons.

 

As far as Calth goes, aren't you a IV Legionary? When your Legion orders breaching squads to go over the top I doubt they're expecting everyone to make it back in one piece. To condemn Lorgar for using the same methods seems a bit like the pot

speaking to the kettle.

 

As for the Contemptor Dreadnaught, Lorgar was well on his way to punching it to death when twenty Librarians decided to butt in.

 

And he never begged for help. Not on Nuceria, and not against Corax on Isstvan. Say one thing for the Urizen, say that he's as willing to die for his cause as he is to sacrifice others for it.

 

The Gal Vorbak (The first ones, not the weakbloods that followed) were cleansed by the daemon blood in their vein. Thanks to AD-B for barely gracing the Terran purge, and curses upon Reynolds for bringing it right back with a vengeance in a short story in Mark of Calth. It's probably the one bit of XVII Legion fluff that actually grates my nerves.

 

The men of the IV that walk into a Forlorn Hope know what's coming. Most are volunteers, or vicious men who live for such a death. The difference in 'knowing'. Being told that such a breach will cost many, if not every, life, and accepting because of the trust placed upon them. The Word Bearers who marched on Calth were pretty much told, "yeah, go kick their butt, and come on back, we'll have a few beers." They had no clue that they were expected to die to a man, and that is a betrayal of blood. Lorgar wasn't exactly happy that his own adoptive father and First Chaplain came on back, either, and considered their very survival a failure.

 

The Contemptor fight...fair enough. I was still rooting for Lhorke, though, despite knowing that it wasn't to be.

 

And he did beg for help. "Brother, Help me.", as the contemptor and Libbys closed in to finish him off. That is begging.

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Truth be told, for the most part, I'm pulling your leg, Wade. I do like the Seventeenth, and I know every legion has their successes and failures, strengths and shortcomings. The constant self-mutilation of the Word Bearers, the consistent betrayal within their own ranks for the weirdest reasons, bugs me, is all. And the Terran thing. Reynolds needs a serious talking to.

[Aqui]

I'm pretty sure GW hates the Templars and the Iron Hands so....... actually the X should be the best.

Side Note: The High Lords are under the impression that ALL of the Chapters are under their command/

No they don't, they hate just one Chapter

However, to keep on topic, whilst I'm way behind on the HH still I will say that lurking in this subforum and reading many members' WIP topics etc has left me with a greater appreciation for many Legions that I once thought of with derision I truly don't have a Legion that I dislike any more.

In fact, one Legion in particular has recently caught my eye, which surprised me. Still can't afford to go 30K to do anything about it, but might eventually do a 40K equivalent though...

[depthcharge12]

 

I'm pretty sure GW hates the Templars and the Iron Hands so....... actually the X should be the best.Side Note: The High Lords are under the impression that ALL of the Chapters are under their command/

No they don't, they hate just one Chapter :(However, to keep on topic, whilst I'm way behind on the HH still :( I will say that lurking in this subforum and reading many members' WIP topics etc has left me with a greater appreciation for many Legions that I once thought of with derision :) I truly don't have a Legion that I dislike any more.In fact, one Legion in particular has recently caught my eye, which surprised me. Still can't afford to go 30K to do anything about it, but might eventually do a 40K equivalent though...

 

How does the saying go?

 

*ahem* part of the crew, part of the ship, part of the crew, part of the ship, part of the....

[Aqui]

I'm pretty sure GW hates the Templars and the Iron Hands so....... actually the X should be the best.Side Note: The High Lords are under the impression that ALL of the Chapters are under their command/

No they don't, they hate just one Chapter :(However, to keep on topic, whilst I'm way behind on the HH still I will say that lurking in this subforum and reading many members' WIP topics etc has left me with a greater appreciation for many Legions that I once thought of with derision I truly don't have a Legion that I dislike any more.In fact, one Legion in particular has recently caught my eye, which surprised me. Still can't afford to go 30K to do anything about it, but might eventually do a 40K equivalent though...

How does the saying go?

*ahem* part of the crew, part of the ship, part of the crew, part of the ship, part of the....

*La, la, la! Can't hear you!*

If I knew the Ultramarine successor (not) mentioned were officially Second Founding, it would have weakened my resolve...however, it's not happened

[Wade Garrett]

@Heathens:

 

No worries, boss. I myself ignore the Terran purge (and almost everything else Reynolds has written about the Word Bearers) quite studiously.

 

I mean, ye gods!

"Marduk, your mission was prophesied to capture the Boros Gate and bring forth the end times. Instead you lost three Hosts and a unique plot Macguffin and only survived by running away. For your awesomeness I promote you to the Dark Council, high fives all the way around!"

 

WHY CHAOS ISN'T WINNING THE LONG WAR Exhibit A (12) b7

 

With that said, I just finished skimming my copy of Betrayer and I can't find Lorgar ever shouting "Help me, brother!" in the fight with Lhorke and the Librarius. Do you have a page number?