The best legion (please don't hurt me...) *Hides*

[Kol Saresk]

Don't forget that the Word Bearers' Terran recruits were the sons of conquered enemies who did have religious beliefs. And that at each of the two transitions, there were purges. The XVII of Massacre is just as dimwitted as the XVII of the IA articles who had no purges and did it "Cuz Daddy Lorgar said so."

 

So honestly Wade, other than a few more added details, the core of Massacre's Word Bearers are no different than the core of the Word Bearers from 3rd Edition.

[Conn Eremon]

Don't forget that the Word Bearers' Terran recruits were the sons of conquered enemies who did have religious beliefs. And that at each of the two transitions, there were purges. The XVII of Massacre is just as dimwitted as the XVII of the IA articles who had no purges and did it "Cuz Daddy Lorgar said so."

 

So honestly Wade, other than a few more added details, the core of Massacre's Word Bearers are no different than the core of the Word Bearers from 3rd Edition.

Massacre is what he was talking about, not the IAs or 3rd edition.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Don't forget that the Word Bearers' Terran recruits were the sons of conquered enemies who did have religious beliefs. And that at each of the two transitions, there were purges. The XVII of Massacre is just as dimwitted as the XVII of the IA articles who had no purges and did it "Cuz Daddy Lorgar said so."

 

So honestly Wade, other than a few more added details, the core of Massacre's Word Bearers are no different than the core of the Word Bearers from 3rd Edition.

Massacre is what he was talking about, not the IAs or 3rd edition.

I know. That's why I compared the two.

[Kais Klip]

As someone who played around with the idea of going with Word Bearers, I was satisfied with their portrayal in massacre. Fanatics no matter what they believe opens up the most doors out of any legion, from Narek to Erebus to "kill every human and then kill themselves to starve the chaos gods" to "co-exist" banners made from dead xenos. And then Bligh served them as already corrupted instead of waiting to upgrade them a la World Eaters, consigning a third of the army to daemon shenanigans. Can't complain, but I really wanted to kill team that lone mace wielder walking into a room of alien fanatics...

[Wade Garrett]

So honestly Wade, other than a few more added details, the core of Massacre's Word Bearers are no different than the core of the Word Bearers from 3rd Edition.

Say what? Please, find me the quote in Index Astartes: Word Bearers or one of the Chaos Codexes that says the Seventeenth switched belief systems sixty five times because REASONS.

 

It doesn't exist. It never existed, before Forge World decided that "religous fanatic" meant "I was a Muslim Monday, Tuesday I was Buddhist, Wednesday I briefly became a Communist but settled on Anglicanism, Thursday I was Jewish, Friday I became a Hindu, Saturday I practiced Scientology, and on Sunday I worshipped Odin".

 

As for the purges, I go with The First Heretic: They happened, but it wasn't anything close to the cull on Isstvan 3.

 

Anthony Reynolds says otherwise. Anthony Reynolds also says the Word Bearers consider failing to defeat the Imperium and running away from xenos praiseworthy and something you get promoted for.

 

Fortunately the Pit of Shame has a very spacious interior.

[Kol Saresk]

Okay, then since "deductive reasoning" is out the window, WHY did the IA and 3rd Edition Word Bearers convert first to preaching the God-Emperor(which we still have them being censored for) and then converting to Chaos? We have the exact same metamorphosis Wade. The exact same. They go from the Imperial Truth, to Lectitio Divinatus to Chaos. And why? Te IA and 3rd Edition doesn't say so. They also don't speak of any resistance either. So which one is really different? What is "your" XVII and how does it match the "older incarnation" but is different from the "new incarnation"?

[Wade Garrett]

Kol, why can't you accept the portrayal of Curze in "Vulkan Lives" as the truest and most accurate portrayal of the Night Haunter?

 

We know that Curze complained that Nostromo's backslide into anarchy was causing his Legion to be filled with career criminals and serial killers.

 

We know from Massacre that the VIII Legion was filled with serial killers and career criminals from its inception.

 

From these two facts, we may deduce that Curze was a deluded buffoon. So why did you complain so much when Kyme wrote him as one?

[Wade Garrett]

And now that I've indulged my inner whiney two year old, some signal to go with the noise:

 

To begin with, the Imperial Truth

itself is a huge retcon that didn't even exist when IA: Word Bearers was written, and in my opinion has always been a bit dodgily Iimplemented ("I acknowledge no god, only the Imperial Truth, with which we shall scour the falsehood of religion from the galaxy! Now tell those tech priests to repaint our tanks as soon as they're done chanting binary prayers to the Omnissiah!").

 

If, for some inexplicable reason, Forge World approached me to write the Pre-Primarch Word Bearers fluff, I would have had them as utterly devoted not so much to the Imperial Truth as to the person of the Emperor.

 

All the stuff about them delivering the "Submit or die" ultamatiums and having special jump pack units just to burn temples could stay, but I would have written their motivations as "Because Dear Leader Big Brother the Emperor demanded it be done" instead of "Rika raka fire cracka siss boom bah! ATHEISM ATHEISM RAH RAH RAH!"

 

In this way, there's a continuity from "fanatical devotion to the Emperor" to "Outright worship of the Emperor" that currently doesn't exist.

 

Not to mention that Massacre's description of the Emperor arriving on Colchis clashes jarringly with how Lorgar describes it in "The First Heretic", plus it suggests the most powerful psyker the human race ever produced landed on a planet of religous zealots who worshipped him as god and somehow never picked up on that.

[Thorium]

X Legion - Iron Hands

 

The flesh is weak and I will prove it by driving my Land Raider over you.

[Stormborn]

Word bearer, iron hands & night lords can't help but see them as quite weak.  The word bearers with their need for belief in anything the emperor, the chaos gods, the tooth fairy etc.  supposedly space marines have been engineered to be the ultimate human warrior, so why are the word bearers so easily swayed by a few demagogues?  Surely the best legion should be above that?

 

The iron hands with all their flesh is weak rubbish, 17 other legions don't have any problem with weak flesh so why should the iron hands be consider better than any of the others?

 

Night lords well even poor deluded old konrad doesn't like them and destroys their world.  They end up as a shattered legion the only thing seemingly holding them together was konrad, the remnants are just a bunch of loosely aligned sociopaths who the other legions and huron slackbutt appear to be more than happy to squander as shook troops.   So how does this make them the best?

[marshal seanisi]

The Best! Well there is a broad statement truly up for interpretation. Under what terms do we consider when deciding who is the best? The best for Mankind? Well after reading Unremembered empire, I would have to say the Ultra Marines. Guilliman first priority was to preserve the Human race regardless of everything else. The best as it relates to loyalty to the Emperor?. The Imperial Fists, Dorn's unwavering loyalty (to a fault) in the emperor is without question, his headstrong allegiance in the face of such dire consequences to the human race sees him transfixed on the protection of the Emperor and very caviler toward the protection of the human race. The best for Chaos?. The Word Bearers, of all those who turned to the call of the Dark Gods, The Bearers of the Word did it with dedication and purpose. Where the other traitor legions had their own agendas, The Word Bearers followed Lorgar, and after reading Aurelian, we can gather that he alone knows the "truth" Ahhh the "truth" that brings me to the Alpha Legion, is it Alpharius that knows the real "truth"? Does that make the Alpha's the best?. In the end, we can only have one "best" and IMO it's the White Scars! Yes the Scars, nomadic in nature, loyal to the human race and to the emperor, Jaghatai was not quick to pass judgement on Horus or Magnus, He is loyal to his brothers even under the most dire of circumstances, His legion was largely in tact and at full strength while he was contemplating the unfathomable course of action he needed to take. The majority of all other legions at the time where battle weary and shell shocked at the time. The Scars however seem to be the only Legion completely unaffected at the pinnacle of the Heresy. So at the time. I would have to give it to the Scars. Please forgive all the rambling nonsense I just spewed all over the forum, it's my way of conveying that we have no real facts or history to objectively base our answers from.

[Kol Saresk]

I'm not sure I'd say the Khan is loyal to the Emperor. Loyal to the Imperium and Humanity, yes. The Emperor? Not so much.

 

Kol, why can't you accept the portrayal of Curze in "Vulkan Lives" as the truest and most accurate portrayal of the Night Haunter?

 

We know that Curze complained that Nostromo's backslide into anarchy was causing his Legion to be filled with career criminals and serial killers.

 

We know from Massacre that the VIII Legion was filled with serial killers and career criminals from its inception.

 

From these two facts, we may deduce that Curze was a deluded buffoon. So why did you complain so much when Kyme wrote him as one?

The IA article says the Legion had a dark beginning, whether it be the gene-seed or the recruits. And Children born and raised in a penal colony ain't career criminals. Otherwise we'd have to stay away from Jaspcat. ;) And what we know of Curze from the IA articles, Lord of the Night and even Unremembered Empire, Curze lived towards his death, but he did not live to commit suicide.

 

And now that I've indulged my inner whiney two year old, some signal to go with the noise:

 

To begin with, the Imperial Truth

itself is a huge retcon that didn't even exist when IA: Word Bearers was written, and in my opinion has always been a bit dodgily Iimplemented ("I acknowledge no god, only the Imperial Truth, with which we shall scour the falsehood of religion from the galaxy! Now tell those tech priests to repaint our tanks as soon as they're done chanting binary prayers to the Omnissiah!").

 

If, for some inexplicable reason, Forge World approached me to write the Pre-Primarch Word Bearers fluff, I would have had them as utterly devoted not so much to the Imperial Truth as to the person of the Emperor.

 

All the stuff about them delivering the "Submit or die" ultamatiums and having special jump pack units just to burn temples could stay, but I would have written their motivations as "Because Dear Leader Big Brother the Emperor demanded it be done" instead of "Rika raka fire cracka siss boom bah! ATHEISM ATHEISM RAH RAH RAH!"

 

In this way, there's a continuity from "fanatical devotion to the Emperor" to "Outright worship of the Emperor" that currently doesn't exist.

 

Not to mention that Massacre's description of the Emperor arriving on Colchis clashes jarringly with how Lorgar describes it in "The First Heretic", plus it suggests the most powerful psyker the human race ever produced landed on a planet of religous zealots who worshipped him as god and somehow never picked up on that.

And yet we still have Lorgar being censured for *drumroll* worshipping the Emperor because it slowed his advance across the stars. IA specifically says

 

The progress of the Word Bearers was slow, but complete. None escaped the crozius or the bolter. Entire worlds were scoured of the living for their refusal to submit to the will of the Emperor. When the Emperor took note of Lorgar's slow advance across the stars, he personally reproached his Primarch. He informed Lorgar that his purpose was not for faith, but for battle. The true mission of the Space Marines was to reconquer and unify the Imperium under the banner of the Imperiun, not waste precious time and resources in vast displays of piety.

 

And you know where the rest of the article goes? How Lorgar was converted to Chaos and his Legion followed.

 

So, IA article. Lorgar and Word Bearers fanatically religious towards the Emperor. Then they *poof* convert to Chaos.

 

Massacre. Starts out fanatically loyal to Emperor. Lorgar comes along and turns loyalty to worship. Then *poof* Emperor gets replaced by Chaos.

 

So I fail to see the difference you think is there. Which still hasn't been explained. And until it is explained, this conversation is just going to run in circles.

 

Word bearer, iron hands & night lords can't help but see them as quite weak. The word bearers with their need for belief in anything the emperor, the chaos gods, the tooth fairy etc. supposedly space marines have been engineered to be the ultimate human warrior, so why are the word bearers so easily swayed by a few demagogues? Surely the best legion should be above that?

 

The iron hands with all their flesh is weak rubbish, 17 other legions don't have any problem with weak flesh so why should the iron hands be consider better than any of the others?

 

Night lords well even poor deluded old konrad doesn't like them and destroys their world. They end up as a shattered legion the only thing seemingly holding them together was konrad, the remnants are just a bunch of loosely aligned sociopaths who the other legions and huron slackbutt appear to be more than happy to squander as shook troops. So how does this make them the best?

You do realize shock troops are actually highly prized units, right?

 

But honestly, if we all put our heads together we could find out enough things wrong with each Legion to show why they aren't the best. Because there is no best except that which we personally choose and justify.

[Conn Eremon]

After reading Scars, I wouldn't even say he is loyal to the Imperium. His only loyalty I would say is to his sons, his Legion, and those few brothers he cared for. The only thing that makes him fight on the side of the Loyalists is seeing Magnus' regrets and Mortarion's corruption.

[Kol Saresk]

Well that, but he does say that when Terra calls, he will answer. So I guess it'd be better to say he is loyalty to Humanity and that between the Imperium and the Traitors, he believes Humanity has a better chance with the Imperium.

[Conn Eremon]

Even then, I would still say it is that Humanity important to him that matters at all. His Legion, his world. Essentially those loyal to him. And the memory of those brothers he cared most for, for they are no longer what they were.

 

It seemed to me it was that the Khan sided against the Traitors because he saw their corruption as the greater of two evils. He knew of the Warp's true nature, and he saw it in them. He cared nothing for the Emperor, his Imperium, or Humanity as a whole. He was too much the free-spirit to even be tied down by such concerns, the burdens of loyalty or duty.

[Wade Garrett]

Was Jaspcat born and raised in an underground prison populated by the worst scum on Terra? As a child, was he so terrifyingly murderous that the axe murderers and serial rapists who were thrown into said underground hellhole ran away screaming from him?

 

Because if so, my hat is off to him for rising above a difficult upbringing. If not, then you're typing nonsense.

 

And in the IA, Lorgar was censured for being slow. The paragraph you quoted specifically states they were slow twice, just in case someone with poor reading comprehension missed it the first time.

 

When Index Astartes was written there was no Imperial Truth. The Space Wolves worshipped the Emperor. The Mechanicus worshipped him. ROGAL DORN worshipped the Emperor.

 

Let us employ that deductive reasoning you're so fond of:

 

In Index Astartes, Dorn, Russ, and Lorgar all worshipped the Emperor.

 

Lorgar was slow. Dorn and Russ were not.

 

Lorgar was punished. Dorn and Russ were not.

 

Ergo, in the Index Astartes lore, Lorgar was punished for being slow, not for worship.

 

This is because when Index Astartes was written THERE WAS NO IMPERIAL TRUTH for Lorgar to be in violation of.

[Kol Saresk]

Wade, I'd figure that you of all people would be able to recognize sarcasm. If Jaspcat was raised in an underground prison where he was forced to grow up killing people in order to survive and was then brainwashed into being a precision killing machine who killed on the orders of a egomaniacal tyrant whose latent killer personality came to the fore when he was exposed to a new criminal element and was taught not to do it for survival but for pleasure, I wouldn't stay away from him, I'd ask for an autograph and a recommendation letter. Because he'd be a Nght Lord.

 

Don't forget that twice in the IA article I also mentioned, Lorgar was told he was not to do religion, but battle. Just like in The First Heretic, Lorgar was hit for worship, and he was hit for worship because he was slow because of the worship.

 

So, again, if we go without the existence of the Imperial Truth in the IA articles and 3rd Edition, we get

IA article. Lorgar and Word Bearers fanatically religious towards the Emperor. Then they *poof* convert to Chaos.

 

Massacre. Starts out fanatically loyal to Emperor. Lorgar comes along and turns loyalty to worship. Then *poof* Emperor gets replaced by Chaos.

Honestly Wade, it just looks like you're getting hung up on the Imperial Truth bit.

[GhostMalone]

I don't murder :/

 

I ensure that :cuss lasts, it's more like torture boarder lining cruel and sadistic, I flay with chainsaws like a surgeon works with a scalpel

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

Word bearer, iron hands & night lords can't help but see them as quite weak.  The word bearers with their need for belief in anything the emperor, the chaos gods, the tooth fairy etc.  supposedly space marines have been engineered to be the ultimate human warrior, so why are the word bearers so easily swayed by a few demagogues?  Surely the best legion should be above that?

 

The iron hands with all their flesh is weak rubbish, 17 other legions don't have any problem with weak flesh so why should the iron hands be consider better than any of the others?

 

Night lords well even poor deluded old konrad doesn't like them and destroys their world.  They end up as a shattered legion the only thing seemingly holding them together was konrad, the remnants are just a bunch of loosely aligned sociopaths who the other legions and huron slackbutt appear to be more than happy to squander as shook troops.   So how does this make them the best?

 

Flesh is Weak thing ain't until after the Heresy. The reason the 30k era Hands have more bionics is because cybernetic implants are quicker than cloning and implanting organic prosyhesis. So whilst Legionaries from other Legions would be waiting in a med bay, Iron Hands are out killing stuff. With tanks. Becuase efficiency means more death to the Imperium's enemies.

 

I also disagree on the Night Lords & Word Bearers. Being incredibly devout means Word Bearers would have unshakeable resolve & morale. What harm can an enemy do when a glorious afterlife awaits you? Truly terrifying fanatics.

 

Also, the Night Lords are just cool. Sure, they may not be the best organised Legion, but they will bleed you where it hurts. How can you expect to win a war when the vast majority of your troops are so psychologically scarred, they're more likely to retch than fight when your enemy finally appears.

 

No Legion is best, because no Legion is really worse than any of the others, they are just better at different things.

[Wade Garrett]

Ehhhhh, Kol...

 

I'm just saying, given how 40k lore works I doubt we were supposed to read "pale skinned children that terrified the inmates of an underground prison" and arrive at the conclusion that these people were like Australians, who might be descended from people who didn't pay taxes and spit on the sidewalk, but after a few generations of wandering around in the sun shooting wallabies and bushmen are no worse on average than say, Canadians.

 

Instead of picturing essentially, "Little Nostromo", producing recruits who as messed up as Cyrion, Uzuas, and Xarl ever were.

[Conn Eremon]

Seemed to me that we were more supposed to read it like kids with child-soldier mentalities that figure out that the best way to survive was to make the monsters fear them more.

 

They weren't murderers, thieves, rapists. They were not criminals, they were survivors who used fear as a weapon in self-defense.

[Augustus]

Why would the IA:WB Imperial author criticize the WB for being punished for worshipping the God Emperor? That's what they're suppose to do. They were too slow :) Leave the preaching to the Ministorum that has //always// existed.

[Wade Garrett]

Seemed to me that we were more supposed to read it like kids with child-soldier mentalities that figure out that the best way to survive was to make the monsters fear them more.

 

They weren't murderers, thieves, rapists. They were not criminals, they were survivors who used fear as a weapon in self-defense.

Again, this is where interpretation and opinion comes into it.

 

I'm not denying you the right to your opinion, merely stating that to me, that passage reads as Forge World going "Yo dawg. We heard you like Night Lords who are vicious sadistic criminals. So we made them a Legion of vicious sadistic criminals who recruit vicious sadistic criminals so they can be twisted and corrupt while being twisted and corrupt."

 

Which turns the Legion's fall from tragedy to farce.

 

In the same way that I see the fanatical atheist Word Bearers becoming fanatical Emperor worshipping Word Bearers becoming fanatical Chaos worshippers and start bracing myself for an upcoming Imperial

Armor where Lorgar emerges from his temple and announces:

 

"Oi! You zogging gits! We's ain't worshippin dem spikey fellas no more, we gonna worship da gods Gork en Mork!"

 

And then the Seventeenth become fanatical practicioners of the WAAGGGHHH, for they care not what they believe, only that they do.

[Conn Eremon]

Like you said, we are all entitled to our opinions, and in this case our assumptions of what they are trying to tell us.

 

But it sounds to me that you are deliberately trying for the assumptions that lend the most negative light in your eyes.

 

Forge World uses the word criminal a lot to describe the prison setting, but very specifically does not for the children who are taken as recruits from it. Instead, it even sets them up as opposing the criminals. If all the criminals are scared of them, and they are criminals as well, then you got a bunch of kids who go scaredy cat Dean Winchester every time they see each other or their own reflections.

 

 

 

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/216/5/6/scary_cat_gif_by_agigi111.gif

Pictured: Worst recruit for the VIIIth ever.

 

 

It is my assumption that this means they aren't criminals. It is your assumption that they are. Since them being criminals is such a bad thing, why not assume it must mean that they were not?

 

Same goes for the Word Bearers. Nothing says that it doesn't matter what they believe in. It does say they have strong desires to believe in something, but that isn't the same thing.

 

Edit: Last one, I swear.

[Wade Garrett]

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/216/5/6/scary_cat_gif_by_agigi111.gif

Pictured: Worst recruit for the VIIIth ever.

 

"Winchester passed the trials? Why? HOW?"

 

"There are few things in the galaxy that make Lord Curze smile, Jago. And the way the way Winchester shrieks in that high pitched voice while flailing around every time the Primarch speaks to him is one of those things."

 

And while I may be "Bah humbugging!" my way through the VIII and XVII fluff I feel like you're desperately stretching every sentence on the rack of semantics to make it force it into shapes besides the obvious "Always crooks, all the time!" and "We change our deeply held convictions like Wade changes his socks!"

 

I'll be sticking with my pre-Primarch Seventeenth Legion that is devoted to the Emperor the way the Party is to Big Brother, if their eyes tell them one thing and the Emperor says another, then their eyes are LYING (and will possibly be torn out and burned for said dishonesty.)