AlabasterKnight Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Just checking in: Page 18 of this thread and still no clear winner. Lots of witty banter and one-upsmanship of the written word. "My guys are fanatical devotees of irrepressible relentless fervor!" "Well, my guys are criminally insane remorseless psychopaths!" "Well my guys are bionic killing machines with uber-mechanized toys!" "Well my guys are staunch defenders of the human condition who were loyal to a fault!" Such is the curse of our power armors gentlemen and the Baskin Robbins plethora of Primarchs and philosophies.. Long Live the Space Marines. O how I like this B&C forum. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285267-the-best-legion-please-dont-hurt-me-hides/page/19/#findComment-3567478 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Now every time the Night Haunter talks, I am going to be imagining background screaming. A very specific scream. "Oh shut up, he's been gone for half an hour." - Guilliman's mum Anyway, it might seem like I am stretching on semantics because semantics are what I point out, but I promise that it isn't the case. Just an inability to debate my position adequately. When I read it, this was the sense I got from it, without looking too deep into it. Honestly, the only time I do any of that is when I try to see it from the other side. When I read it again to check if I missed something, and then read it again when I realized I hadn't but I still couldn't see where the other side got its argument. I mean, I got it. I see now how it could be taken that way. But there I felt I was stretching, and that is why I don't think that is what they meant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285267-the-best-legion-please-dont-hurt-me-hides/page/19/#findComment-3567480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 As I said, I'm not ruling out this being a clear cut case of you saying "No, really Wade, the glass is half full." in calm, eminently reasonable tones. And me retorting with "NO! THE GLASS IS A LIE! THAT WAS NEVER MY GLASS! I REJECT IT!" while everyone else stares at the crazy man in silent bemusement. I do not like the Night Lords and Word Bearers background provided in Massacre. It is very unlikely I will be debated into liking it. I will, however, be willing to button my trap about it since I think everyone is tired of reading my tirades against it. *shrugs fatalistically* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285267-the-best-legion-please-dont-hurt-me-hides/page/19/#findComment-3567489 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Wade if you never argued I would think that you were sick don't stop fighting the system it keeps me sane Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285267-the-best-legion-please-dont-hurt-me-hides/page/19/#findComment-3567515 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Well. So long as we understand each other. :p I am willing to admit that I could be the one who needs to pull his head out. And I can't fault you for simply not liking something. That is a completely subjective matter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285267-the-best-legion-please-dont-hurt-me-hides/page/19/#findComment-3567523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 And I have proof that any legion can be the best. Because any legion can cause the fraters of the B&C to argue in circles for weeks! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285267-the-best-legion-please-dont-hurt-me-hides/page/19/#findComment-3567526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Pfft. So can Ward. Is he therefore th best? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285267-the-best-legion-please-dont-hurt-me-hides/page/19/#findComment-3567529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Pfft. So can Ward. Is he therefore th best? That is proof that any writer can be best! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285267-the-best-legion-please-dont-hurt-me-hides/page/19/#findComment-3567549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Ah, but no author inspires hate like Ward hate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285267-the-best-legion-please-dont-hurt-me-hides/page/19/#findComment-3567561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Ah, but no author inspires hate like Ward hate. Therefore he is the best at... something! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285267-the-best-legion-please-dont-hurt-me-hides/page/19/#findComment-3567565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Ah, but no author inspires hate like Ward hate. Cool. Let's talk about C.S. Goto, then. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285267-the-best-legion-please-dont-hurt-me-hides/page/19/#findComment-3567609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrannicide Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Ah, but no author inspires hate like Ward hate. Cool. Let's talk about C.S. Goto, then. He wins the award for compelling the reader to claw out their own eyes. Hands down, annual champ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285267-the-best-legion-please-dont-hurt-me-hides/page/19/#findComment-3567611 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Ah, but no author inspires hate like Ward hate. Cool. Let's talk about C.S. Goto, then. Good lord, he would definitely come in as the second most powerful writer, wouldn't he? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285267-the-best-legion-please-dont-hurt-me-hides/page/19/#findComment-3567630 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Forge World uses the word criminal a lot to describe the prison setting, but very specifically does not for the children who are taken as recruits from it. The paragraph in 'Massacre' (p. 93) describing the origin of the first Night Lord recruits does not use the term "criminal" once. It does state that only the most ruthless and cruel subjects survived in those prison colonies. And then the scariest of them all were used for the Night Lords Legion. Just checking in: Page 18 of this thread and still no clear winner. I thought I had conclusively settled the matter on page 1. But then people just kept talking. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285267-the-best-legion-please-dont-hurt-me-hides/page/19/#findComment-3569105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheForgottenAngel Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/44871259.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285267-the-best-legion-please-dont-hurt-me-hides/page/19/#findComment-3569194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Who the eff is ADAM Dembski-Bowden? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285267-the-best-legion-please-dont-hurt-me-hides/page/19/#findComment-3569204 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Adam is Aaron's older and more successful brother who never lets up on Aaron for pursuing a writing career instead of marketing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285267-the-best-legion-please-dont-hurt-me-hides/page/19/#findComment-3569206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Who the eff is ADAM Dembski-Bowden? XD Legatus: You are right, I was working off of memory and the word criminal gets thrown around a lot as a catch-all. However, it does not say what you said. What it says, and I am on my phone so I will not directly quote but it is on that page you put, is that there was a constant influx from the Hives. Those sent below who survived grew in cunning and cruelty. Only the strongest and ruthless survived. Not the most criminal, only the string and ruthless. You know who else could be described as strong and ruthless? The Ultramarines. AND EVERY OTHER LEGION. And their sources of recruits. It also says that these were not the only kind of people below. There were also these children. Meaning that there were these lawless crooks sent below, who survived by becoming more cruel and cunning. AND THEN there were these children. Who made sure that these killers left them alone, but are not part of them and are not described as being like them. I am really failing to see the argument here, why survivors automatically become "murderers, rapists and thieves." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285267-the-best-legion-please-dont-hurt-me-hides/page/19/#findComment-3569213 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Who the eff is ADAM Dembski-Bowden? That creepy guy who hangs around the local kindergarten Everyone gets him and ADB confused Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285267-the-best-legion-please-dont-hurt-me-hides/page/19/#findComment-3569216 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 What it says, and I am on my phone so I will not directly quote but it is on that page you put, is that there was a constant influx from the Hives. Those sent below who survived grew in cunning and cruelty. Only the strongest and ruthless survived. Not the most criminal, only the string and ruthless. You know who else could be described as strong and ruthless? The Ultramarines. AND EVERY OTHER LEGION. And their sources of recruits. It also says that these were not the only kind of people below. There were also these children. Meaning that there were these lawless crooks sent below, who survived by becoming more cruel and cunning. AND THEN there were these children. Who made sure that these killers left them alone, but are not part of them and are not described as being like them. The children are not exempt from the requirements to survive in the dark prison sinks. They were different in that they had not been "banished from the world above". The description of what kind of person one had to be in order to survive in those depths applies to them just as much as to everyone else. "There was no law in these lightless lands, and survival existed only by the blade's edge. Only the strongest and the most ruthless survived in the subterranean warrens, and those who did grew in cruelty and cunning." That applies to everyone trying to survive down there. No matter whether one was sent there from above or whether one was born there. That description is also, curiously enough, almost identical to that of the criminal Nostramo recruits that supposedly "poisoned" the Legion. "Only the most ruthless, hardy criminals remained healthy and strong on the cut-throat world of Nostramo, and it was these men, possessed of strength and vicious nerve but absolutely no scruples, that ended up populating the Night Lord's ranks." So, the original Legionnaires were made of the ruthless, strong and cruel inhabitants of a dark prison society, who grew up surviving only by the blade's edge. Everything went ok, but then the Legion was poisoned by new recruits, who were ruthless, strong and unscrupulous inhabitants of a dark crime society, who grew up on the cut-throat world of Nostramo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285267-the-best-legion-please-dont-hurt-me-hides/page/19/#findComment-3569273 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Actually, there's a difference. At Terra, "Only the most cunning and ruthless." This would be no different than some of the warrior societies of the past where your life could just go *poof* if you made the wrong decision. We see no evidence of a morality factor mentioned either. And then Nostramo. "Only the most hardy criminals survived." We see the addition of a morality factor. Where at Terra, the children were forced to grow up killing in order to survive, at Nostramo, it makes it out that they had to not just kill to survive, but become the very things they killed. One pool of recruits only killed when necessary, first to survive and then on the Emperor's orders. The other killed because it wanted to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285267-the-best-legion-please-dont-hurt-me-hides/page/19/#findComment-3569276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Comparatively, the night's children didn't become the equivalent of murderer's, rapists, and thugs any more than the night haunter began to murder, beat, and rob people. Night Haunter and the Night's Children have similar stories. No families, lived on their own, etc. The difference is in the application of killing, Night Haunter killed those who sinned, while the Night's Children killed for survival. Realistically, though, Nostramo has always pushed at the edges of believability and we all no it. No world that bankrupt could function under Imperial Rule. Now, we don't have definitive information on the differences between Imperial Worlds and the worlds that were sworn to the Legion, so it might be entirely possible that the Night Lords left no means of controlling the population behind him when he left, so I'll refrain from saying anything definitive about that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285267-the-best-legion-please-dont-hurt-me-hides/page/19/#findComment-3569288 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Actually, there's a difference. At Terra, "Only the most cunning and ruthless." This would be no different than some of the warrior societies of the past where your life could just go *poof* if you made the wrong decision. We see no evidence of a morality factor mentioned either. The survivors in the prison sinks were also "cruel". Not just strong and ruthless. And then Nostramo. "Only the most hardy criminals survived." We see the addition of a morality factor. Where at Terra, the children were forced to grow up killing in order to survive, at Nostramo, it makes it out that they had to not just kill to survive, but become the very things they killed. One pool of recruits only killed when necessary, first to survive and then on the Emperor's orders. The other killed because it wanted to. The description of the Nostraman criminals does not mention "killing", and they were not the only one's to "survive". They just were the only ones to remain strong and healthy. The difference in description is that the Terran recruits are described as cruel, whereas the Nostraman recruits are described as having no scruples. The Terrans are also described as cunning, while the Nostramans are "of vicious nerve". So, not much difference, really. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285267-the-best-legion-please-dont-hurt-me-hides/page/19/#findComment-3569291 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 A wolf is pretty cruel in how it hamstrings a baby deer just to be able to eat. Yet I don't hear anyone calling the wolf evil for killing bambi. But hey, a wolf has to it, no? On the other hand, John Wayne Gacy, Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, yep. Those three definitely had no scruples. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285267-the-best-legion-please-dont-hurt-me-hides/page/19/#findComment-3569296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 A wolf is pretty cruel in how it hamstrings a baby deer just to be able to eat. Yet I don't hear anyone calling the wolf evil for killing bambi. But hey, a wolf has to it, no? On the other hand, John Wayne Gacy, Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, yep. Those three definitely had no scruples. So, wait. Are you identifying with a legion of John Wayne Gacys and Charlie Mansons? o.o :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285267-the-best-legion-please-dont-hurt-me-hides/page/19/#findComment-3569298 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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