The best legion (please don't hurt me...) *Hides*

[daveNYC]

 

Ultramarines: Stop shooting me! Why are you shooting! Please brother! We mean you no-" BLAM!

 

You mean Ultramarines: The warhammer soulless gingers. Personalities are left at the door when joining the legion!

 

Problem is that pretty much every legion ends up having the rank and file take on the personality of their Primarch.  Iron Warriors are all grumpy paranoids, Thousand Sons are all 'magic is awesome!', and everyone is Alpharius.  The only difference is that Guilliman is slightly less of a narcissistic jagoff than most of the Primarchs, so the Ultras end up seeming somewhat bland.

[Legatus]

Only in 40K is this guy seen as "bland".

[Wade Garrett]

Uriel Ventris isn't just an Ultramarine. He's a rogue Ultramarine on the edge who plays by his own rules and doesn't have TIME for all this red tape Codex approved nonsense.

[daveNYC]

You're a loose cannon McGarnagle Ventris!

[BassWave]

@davenyc- any legion can be written badly. And, seriously? You chose ultras because they dont have face palm moments? Ok :rollseyes:

[DuskRaider]

 

 

Just checking in: Page 18 of this thread and still no clear winner.

 

I thought I had conclusively settled the matter on page 1. But then people just kept talking.

 

No, I believe it wasn't until Page 4 that I stated Death Guard. 

[Unintentional Batman]

Ultramarines, of course. Goes without saying. Who else could it be, really?

[TheForgottenAngel]

I am Alpharius

[Soraf]

Whilst my personal favourite has always been the Luna Wolves, I believe that the Ultramarines have greater claim to being the "best" legion. Not only for their sheer numerical superiority over the others, but the nature of their achievements in both war and empire building during the great crusade...

[Phoebus]

I use the powers of necromancy to summon this thread back to life...

Before I dig up old arguments, though, I'm surprised that no one really argued for the Dark Angels. ;)

Every hour you spend with your nose stuck in a book is an hour you aren't training tactics, sword skills, marksmanship, and so on.

Thus, by having all their Marines spend significant amounts of time navel gazing the Sons can never equal, say, the hand to hand combat skills of the World Eaters, who devote every waking hour to honing their martial skills.

This reminds me of the old Codex: Space Marines, which included the 24-hour "schedule" of a Chapter. By extension, it makes me consider what you propose for the World Eaters. Do the World Eaters "devote every waking hour to honing their martial skills"? Specifically, hand-to-hand combat skills? I'm not so sure about that. I think it comes down to which depiction of the World Eaters you prefer.

The XII Legion as depicted in Betrayal is probably a lot like the Codex Chapter described in that "Daily Rituals" side-bar... minus the mandated three hours of praying. They have the majority of their day devoted to battle drills, live-fire exercises, etc. It's obvious, however, that the Legion as a whole did not simply practice swinging axes at each other: tanks, artillery, aircraft, etc., were all a part of their doctrine, even if enabling their infantry brethren to get close enough to swing an axe was their primary purpose for being there.

The XII Legion post-Butcher's Nails, though, increasingly started veering away from organized training based on manuals, doctrine, coordinated drills, etc. The World Eaters increasingly became a force that depended on their implants for augmented physical prowess, berserk rage, and resistance to pain - not excellence in any given facet of war. I don't see them showing up at 0800 sharp for ten hours of regimented squad-based coordinated melee assaults, broken up by a thirty minute lunch and debrief.

That's not a clever way of saying that the Thousand Sons were or even could have been [insert whatever concept you want here]. I think it's more than fair to say, however, that between the benefits of eidetic memory, hypno-indoctrination, other far-future gee-whiz stuff, and, I don't know, magic, a Thousand Sons Astartes could - even if he was just the exception to the rule - become one of the best melee combatants in the whole of the Legiones Astartes.

It's not a stretch. Even in the real world, academics and teachers left an indelible mark in the history of swordsmanship. Maybe Piers Gerlofs Donia would have crushed Johannes Liechtenauer ninety-nine times out a hundred, but the fact remains that the latter was considered the grand master of the German swordfighting tradition for centuries. This, despite the fact that the Donia probably spent a great deal more time fighting in actual mortal combat, whereas Liechtenauer probably spent a great deal of his life merely traveling to different places to compile the knowledge that would later form his school.

Also, Lucius as potrayed in the Heresy novels so far is a joke character who has gone down like a chump every time he's faced a non mook opponent.

Saying a Thousand Son held his own with him in a sword fight doesn't mean much.

But now you're using bad writing on McNeil's part to argue that something plausible isn't.

Put it this way: Lucius, regardless of McNeil's failures (perceived or otherwise) is meant to be one of the best swordsmen in the Legiones Astartes. The author's choices undermine this concept, true, but we shouldn't forget what the intent behind the character is. As such, despite the author's unfortunate choices (Sharrowkyn, most notably), Lucius is meant to be special, and his Thousand Son foe is meant to be special by extension as well.

A legion of dogmatic secularists who all shouted "Gimme that old time religion!" after one quiet conversation with their Primarch. Whoever the Emperor hired to indoctrinate/educate the Terran Legionaries apparently did a less than stellar job of it.

As the Forge World fluff potrays it, we have three stages with the Seventeenth:

The Emperor says be atheistic, they're Atheists → Lorgar says don't be an atheist, worship the Emperor, they're Emperor Worshippers → Lorgar says don't worship the Emperor, worship Chaos, they're Chaos worshippers.

This isn't a Legion of unquestioning zealots, as of Massacre the effect of their gene seed is "Renders the iniates into dimwitted yokels who drift whichever way the prevailing wind is blowing."

Which does fit the Al Bundy in power armor model Forge World would have me believe represents Lorgar very well.

But drooling stupidity is not the defining trait of MY Seventeenth Legion, and I consign this fluff to the same Pit of Shame that currently holds "Deliverance Lost", Black Templars that pray the Emperor sends them Librarians again, Uriel Ventris-SAVIOR OF THE ULTRAMATINES, and Khaldor Draigo, the man who won Warhammer 40,000.

Doesn't this argument ignore the supernatural quality of both the Emperor and Lorgar? Or that The First Heretic at least hints at the idea that the Word Bearers are genetically predisposed toward greater loyalty?

That's not to say that some of the background material written lately has been questionable (to say the least)... I just don't think this particular example serves your argument as well as, say, the reversal on the Black Templars (Librarians, Codex, etc.) or Kaldor Draigo.

[Wade Garrett]

In regards to the thinker vs doer dichotomy:

 

Dr. Jigoro Kano was a gentleman and a scholar who changed the face of martial arts forever with his creation/codification of judo and expanding it into a worldwide activity, and doubtless possesed no small amount of skill at throwing people.

 

Masahiko Kimura was, to be honest, a bit of a ruffian (who was infamous for tossing his training partners off the mats and concussing them) who trained judo for nine hours a day.

 

Dr. Kano was doubtless a far more vital figure to judo's development, and possessed a degree of insight into the style Kimura didn't...but in a judo match Masahiko would have creamed him.

 

To me, that's the difference between the XV and the XII. A Thousand Son swordsman would definitely be a better choice to teach someone else the blade, but against someone who has come up through the World Eater's regimen of repeated swordfights against peer opponents he's going to lose.

 

As for Lucius, I can't say I've put much stock in what the author intended. The only question is how he/she executed said intentions, and Graham's execution has left Lucius as a swaggering poltroon whose greatest skill is his ability to delude himself about how talented he truly is.

[Phoebus]

I only disagree with your penultimate point, Wade.  I'm just not sure that the World Eaters maintained that regimen past a certain point.  I think that, eventually, they became more berserk brawlers who relied on the Nails rather than calculated tactics.  Betrayer certain seems to imply this at times.  At any rate, I don't think your point precludes certain Thousand Sons from becoming "top-shelf" swordsmen.  That's not to say that they are necessarily the best; in fact, McNeil's audio drama points to the opposite:  the Thousand Son's largely academic affinity for swordsmanship couldn't make up for a shortfall in natural talent or improvisation (whichever you want to call it).

 

... Hence why I didn't understand the (seemingly) strong feelings against a Thousand Sons swordsman of acclaim.  :)

[Kol Saresk]

Actually Betrayer suggests that through training with live weapons in the pits with the Nails off, the World Eaters do indeed keep up some sort of training regimen. But when the Nails take over, they rely on their natural instincts as they are no longer in control.

[Phoebus]

Thanks, Kol, I couldn't remember if the "live fire exercises" were only referenced in Betrayal or not.  :)

[SpecialIssue]

 

As for Lucius, I can't say I've put much stock in what the author intended. The only question is how he/she executed said intentions, and Graham's execution has left Lucius as a swaggering poltroon whose greatest skill is his ability to delude himself about how talented he truly is.

 

Maybe that is how he should be... Slaanesh promises you whatever you desire, with the gateway through pride, conceit and selfishness. Lucius never earned his skills through natural talent or practise - but was later 'rewarded' it precisely because of his massive levels of self-entitlement and narcissism.

[Memento Of Prospero]

I am not sure why this is still ongoing. The Iron Tenth was proven superior, even in the face of open challenges.

[Phoebus]

 

 

As for Lucius, I can't say I've put much stock in what the author intended. The only question is how he/she executed said intentions, and Graham's execution has left Lucius as a swaggering poltroon whose greatest skill is his ability to delude himself about how talented he truly is.

 

Maybe that is how he should be... Slaanesh promises you whatever you desire, with the gateway through pride, conceit and selfishness. Lucius never earned his skills through natural talent or practise - but was later 'rewarded' it precisely because of his massive levels of self-entitlement and narcissism.

 

Except Lucius was qualified as an exceptional swordsman before the Emperor's Children became corrupted.  ;)

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

 

As for Lucius, I can't say I've put much stock in what the author intended. The only question is how he/she executed said intentions, and Graham's execution has left Lucius as a swaggering poltroon whose greatest skill is his ability to delude himself about how talented he truly is.

Maybe that is how he should be... Slaanesh promises you whatever you desire, with the gateway through pride, conceit and selfishness. Lucius never earned his skills through natural talent or practise - but was later 'rewarded' it precisely because of his massive levels of self-entitlement and narcissism.

Except Lucius was qualified as an exceptional swordsman before the Emperor's Children became corrupted. ;)

Yep. Immortality was Lucius' reward.

[Wade Garrett]

The problem with Lucius is that when Dan Abnett had Loken take him down in the training cage, it was a cool moment that served to show Loken could hang with the main eventers of 40k lore.

 

However, when that defeat was followed up by Saul Tarvitz beating him the exact same way on Isstvan, and Sharrowkyn killing him...at this point, having a character thrash Lucius no longer makes said character look good, it just sinks Lucius farther into the hole.

[Memento Of Prospero]

As a sidenote, who other than Lucian himself ever claimed he was the best? Some have said he was good, but all that supremacy jumk ever came out of his mouth. How he could defeat his primarch, how no one else but Sisgumund might be a worthy foe for him.

[Kol Saresk]

 

As a sidenote, who other than Lucian himself ever claimed he was the best? Some have said he was good, but all that supremacy jumk ever came out of his mouth. How he could defeat his primarch, how no one else but Sisgumund might be a worthy foe for him.

I believe it was Saul Tarvitz who first said he was one of the best swordsmen and he apparently had a reputation since Loken was "eh eh" about sparring with him.

[Conn Eremon]

Saul was also Lucius' friend, at the time, and was remarkably humble for an Emperor's Child. I doubt he was lying, but that doesn't mean it was the truth, either.

[Kol Saresk]

Or at least not unbiased.

[Brovius]

Wow, that is the single most subjective question about anything Warhammer related...

 

But seeing as how you asked...

 

The Blood Angels because their primarch gave his life in righteous battle 

 

The Imperial Fists because they were the rock against which the traitor waves broke

 

The Raven Guard because Corax nearly killed Lorgar

 

The Salamanders because it ain't easy being green

 

The Dark Angels because loyalty is it's own reward

 

The White Scars because sometimes you just have the need for speed

 

The Iron Hands because the flesh is weak

 

The Ultramarines because...Logistics

I thought that politics was the strength of the Ultramarines. You know what they say, never trust a politician ;)

Emperor's children are the perfect legion, which can be a synonym for 'best'... if you squint hard enough.

[Phoebus]

In fairness, I read an insane amount of historical fiction, fantasy, sci-fi, and military history. Practically no author wants to write realistically in terms of modern armies, because the warfare of 40K isn't sending billions and billions of dollars of state of the art equipment and hundreds of thousands of young men into third world countries and curbstomping peasant militia. It's the Bronze Age, the Iron Age, World War I and II, come full circle. It's those tactics with a sci-fi flair. And a lot of those tactics were blunt, awful, and savage.

 

...

 

Which is why when an actual soldier criticises that scene, I... don't automatically care. I care (depending on how the point is raised) but context matters.

 

...

 

One of the things you see a lot of is actual modern day soldiers criticising 40K novel tactics, and in plenty of cases it's absolutely fair. Vet Sgt. is one of the ones that usually does a good job of not assuming 40K warfare is even remotely related to modern warfare, because it's not. To the point it's worth realising that most authors have no interest in making 40K battles feel like realistic warfare. The fight between Hector and Achilles didn't feel like a real duel, but that's the point. It's mythic. 40K is World War II and the Aeneid times a hundred thousand. 

 

I'm not trying to be confrontational here.  And I hope you'll indulge me if I respond in lieu of Veteran Sergeant, as he and I share some things in common in terms of background - in a broad manner of speaking.

 

I'm responding to this because you're one of the few Black Library authors that consistently engages the fan base in terms of exchanging thoughts, opinions, etc.  I also think you're one of five or six individuals from said stable that get this setting and consistently write quality stories for it.  

 

I get (at least, I think I do) where you're coming from.  Telling an interesting story will always be better than telling one that stays true to what we know to be true - especially when what we know to be true is roughly 38,000 years from what you're trying to write about.  But I also think the other important concept you brought up (besides indicating the need to hit the mythic, dystopian tones of the setting) is the context that informs Warhammer 40k.  Specifically, the context behind the various factions and how they do things - how they fight war.

 

I agree, warfare in the 41st (or 31st) millennium should not be an extrapolation of warfare in the 3rd millennium.  Unfortunately, warfare in the 41st (and 31st) millennium does, however, tend to borrow from several other eras, and some of the concepts used don't mesh with the context we're talking about.

 

You mentioned World War One, and that's a perfect example of what I'm talking about.  A lot of the themes and concepts associated with WWI are represented in Warhammer 40k:  trench warfare, the look and shape of the most prevalent types of tanks (and of many of the soldiers, as well), "human wave" attacks, and so on.  But when we're talking about the context behind Warhammer 40k, and how this setting works (or, rather, should work, in my opinion), do the tactics of that conflict really fit this setting?

 

The trench warfare that defined World War One only occurred because our armies (meaning, those of the Eurasian and North American powers of the early 20th century) were able to field dependable rapid-fire weapons and long-range artillery but lacked significant motorized transport, had only just started fielding proper tanks, and possessed only the most rudimentary of air forces.  Fast forward just two decades after the end of that conflict, though, and trench warfare was gone.  Mass production of tanks, trucks, and aircraft (whether ground-attack aircraft, fighter-bombers, or pure bombers) made such tactics obsolete.

 

One of the works of fiction that I think captures the mindset that led to so many pointless deaths in World War One was Gallipoli - specifically, the scene near the end when the 10th Light Horse is being wasted in suicidal "human wave" attacks to support a landing that is facing virtually no opposition.  The Australians desperately try to inform their higher command that the artillery barrage that was to support their charge was mis-timed, and that they are being slaughtered.  Partly due to poor communication, partly due to command's callousness, nothing changes and the men of the 10th are killed almost to a man.

 

So what concept from World War One informs Warhammer 40k better from a design perspective?  The trench warfare (to name one example) that led to so many soldiers dying pointlessly?  Or the mindset behind said tactics?

 

I have a very hard time imagining a bunch of Guardsmen digging trenches for the sake of doing so (or, rather, for the sake of style), but I find it very easy to see the same kind of callous disregard for human life referenced above playing a role in this setting.  Picture, if you will, a planet that can't be subjected to mass orbital bombardment because [insert creative reason here]:  the Imperial Guard must land, but in order for them to do so, preliminary fires from orbit must at least suppress the enemy's air defenses long enough for the Guard's landers to reach the ground.  Like in Gallipoli, the Imperial Navy's barrage fails.  Colonel-Commissar Gaunt demands that Admiral Nefarious Zoltan re-engage, otherwise the men of Tanith would be condemned to certain death.  Zoltan will not risk his ships against the planet's defenses (which can engage starships in low orbit), though, and thus Gaunt has no choice but to order the Tanith First-and-Only to launch.  The Tanith - and the rest of the regiments assaulting - are mostly massacred before they ever land.  Is the thematic connection still being made?  I think so.

 

It's just really frustrating to read battle scenes that aren't really informed by either conventional logic or the factors that drive the setting itself.  The setting demanding that I accept superhuman warriors clad in advanced armour that renders them mostly immune to most firearm is one thing.  It's no more difficult to accept than Peter Parker developing powers after being bitten by a radioactive spider.  The setting demanding that I accept the Imperial Guard forming firing ranks to pointlessly shoot at yet another massed charge of orks or tyranids (that will of course make it to their lines) eventually seems like unimaginative writing.  It demands that I ignore the fact that this same setting has spaceships, artillery, jets, etc.  It demands that I accept that a lot of these things are dumbed down for the sake of a scene working.  That's lazy, though.

 

I don't disagree that the setting is informed by our Bronze Age, our World Wars, etc.  I don't have a problem with themes and concepts from those eras being used appropriately and logically.  The arcane and largely forgotten technology of the Imperium of Man does not somehow take away from it being the "cruelest and most bloody regime possible", though.  Doing justice to the artifices of the Imperium when depicting how Man fights the rest of the Galaxy doesn't mean writing battles as if they were set in our own 21st century.

 

Cheers!