The best legion (please don't hurt me...) *Hides*

[spu00sed]

I'm surprised that the noble III haven't been mentioned that much.

 

They were trusted by the emperor to carry his decree and command the mortal forces in many battles.

 

He honoured them wi his personal symbol.

 

Guilliman mentions how they took his tactics and made them better

 

They are patrons of the arts

 

They made musical instruments out of dead people.....

 

They saw how the marine form was lacking and looked for ways to improve it

 

They have been the butt of many a cruel joke and have stoically carried on.

 

They are purple and gold. The colours of imperial rule.

 

They saw how the siege of the imperial palace was a waste of life marines and found other pursuits.

 

Fulgrim seemed to be well liked by many of his cooler brothers, the ones who's likes matter.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

Because clearly Horus and Guilliman thought Dorn wasn't very capable at generalship and never considered his opinion.

 

Dorn has allways been described as very analytical and precise planner. He has also been described as less flexible in his approaches, with uniform, uninspired force compositions and rarely adjusting a strategy mid-execuion. Though the Horus Heresy books may not have described it quite the same.

Using the word always anymore isn't safe. Very little, almost none IIRC, of the FW books have stuck precisely to the Index Astartes articles. Dorn has been mentioned once in both books, and neither time meshed with the IA timeline or narrative. Ferrus Manus has been extensively retooled, the Word Bearers during the Crusade and Heresy are almost nothing like the IA articles would make them seem, the Emperor's Children and Sons of Horus have both been fleshed out in ways that don't mesh with IA.

 

The problem isn't with the FW books, its that the IA's were so narrow, that the FW writers have unlimited ability to change the Legions and have it fit under the big umbrella of the IA articles. The FW articles are never disparaging either. They show things the IA articles declared as weakness to be Primarch specific preferences, while provided enough evidence that this isn't always the case and is in no way detrimental besides the obvious ones like the World Eaters neurosurgery, like the IA articles do. The best part of it all is, even in the case of the Nails, they are more beneficial than they are detrimental in many cases, and don't really hinder the Legion's ability to win battles like some people suggest.

 

In the specific case of the Imperial Fists, Im sure they will mention that the VII Legion is rigid in its organizational structure, especially since it mentioned the Fists chain of command and organization is even more regimented than the Emperor's Children, who were noted as being strictly organized and deployed. In terms of tactics and strategy, FW has yet to be definitive on how effective any Legion is. All of them are presented as highly capable fighting forces with strong leadership and superior skills. 

 

This comes down, at the most basic level, to the fact that the writers of the Index Astartes articles were first, not very good with the concept of presenting strengths and shortcomings without turning the strengths into super powers and the short comings into horrible, irrevocable vices that got people killed all the time. The FW staff (especially because John French is a much better writer than Graham McNeill in his days on the design team and Pete Haines was never anything but an Iron Warrior fanboy who showered them with gifts) has developed each legion into a plausible fighting force.

 

Do you honestly believe that if the IA article was copy pasted into the books, it would make any sense? The Imperial Fists were honored by the Emperor to secure the palace, but every company was organized the same way and they never, ever changed plans in the middle of battle? So an entire army with nothing but tactical squads, that just kept walking into enemy fire because they didn't expect resistance seems like a reasonable explanation of what the authors were trying to convey?

 

There is a world of difference between rigid discipline, by the book organization, and a tendency to not give ground and an army of identically armed automatons marching into battle with pre-recorded orders and never deviating from them. 

 

The safest assumption for anyone who has chosen to join the 30K crew is to disregard every. single. piece. of information written before the Horus Heresy novel series and FW books. For 30K-o-philes, this is no longer a story we know the ending to, its an entirely new knowledge set coming out twice a year from FW and whenever BL publishes a new novel or short story. Using the old information is about as appropriate as using Wealth of Nations to determine the origins of state capitalism. 

[Emperor's Scourge]

Batman might beat up Wolverine, but then Galactus comes in and he's all like, "arroooo I'm gonna eat you underwear and all arrroooo."

 

Therefore, I believe Nightcrawler is the best Primarch. Green Lantern Corps are the best legion. Checkmate!

[depthcharge12]

^^^

 

 

Now bow your head in obeisance to the All-Fluff and his Holyness Alan Bligh.

 

 

"Lo, and on the 2012 year of our Spirtual Liege, He called Bligh forged everything out of nothing and abolished the Old-Fluff back to its ignorant domain.

 

 

Ye were not given Witch loving Templars, nor Tau huggers, nor power armor within power armor.....we were given praised armor regiments of the World Eaters, we were given ample and balanced rule sets, we were given a very brutal Death Gaurd Legion the likes we have not beheld, and Everyman's army was given uniqueness.

 

 

 

And ye, there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth from Games Workshop as they tried and failed to live up to their child.

 

 

The All-Fluff attracted the likes of meself, 1000heathens, Furioso Prime, JaspCat, and many others....there was much rejoicing....

 

 

 

...the Golden Age of Forgeworld had arrived....."

[Kol Saresk]

"But then came the Merger-Nation and everything changed....."

 

-Hopefully something we'll never see

[depthcharge12]

"But then came the Merger-Nation and everything changed....."

-Hopefully something we'll never see

 

Apocryphal stories at best.

 

 

Or heretical at worst.

[RapatoR]

Black Legion because it is only legion that still exists today.

>An army of mercenaries is not an army. The Black Legion is such only in name.

There is also the fact that they are essentially a XVI Legion warband. The first of the Black Legion were the Sons of Horus that were with Abaddon, not all of the Legion.

I see that A D-B already chimed in but I will add his awesome quote from the post on another forum:

"My Legion bears no number – it was not founded by the Emperor and it never fought at his side. We were born in the centuries after those days of defeat. Numbers were only bestowed upon the Legions of the Great Crusade. We are the Legion of the Long War."

[Wade Garrett]

Did someone really just say the Butcher's Nails don't hinder the World Eaters ability to win battles?

 

I suggest they have a read of

BetrayER, specifically the Battle of Armatura, which shows

quite clearly that turning your entire chain of command into howling madmen who throw planning and logistics aside to run straight at the enemy and beat them to death with the butts of their bolt pistols is indeed A Bad Thing.

[depthcharge12]

Needless casualties don't hinder the world eaters in the slightest :D

[Veteran Sergeant]

 

 

The space wolves. Just ask them.

Sure if you ask them they will say the Space Wolves but they will still know deep down that the best Legion is the Ultramarines. 

 

If not for the Horus Heresy the 13th would have grown to eclipse all other Legions.

The 13th was nearly twice again as large as the next largest legions how much bigger would they need to be.

Winning the franchise wars. In the future, all Space Marines are Ultramarines.

[Veteran Sergeant]

IIRC, Corax and the Khan backed Guilliman on the Codex issue.

 

I can't see either of those two forcefully arguing for the strategic straitjacket the Codex's detractors claim it is.

It's only a straightjacket in the McNeilliverse. 

 

It was originally written to be a good thing. The reason why Space Marines were so awesome.

[Hyaenidae]

I never said that the Black Legion were weak. I never said they were small. I never said that they weren't a threat. I never said any of the other things everybody is putting in my mouth.

 

I know they are deadly, monsterous in size, with allies that range from Traitor Titans, to the Dark Mechanicus, to every broken host that wears power armour, to the entirety of the daemon hosts, to the Dark Gods themselves. They will most likely stand atop the ruins of Terra, dancing on the Emperor's corpse.

 

But they are not a Legion. They are legion, but not a Legion.

[Conn Eremon]

What exactly marks the distinction for you? That they were not part of the original Founding on Terra, even though they are the reinvention of a Legion that was, or at least 99.9% of what is left of it?

[Hyaenidae]

They are reborn, and are better for it. The better question is, what makes them a Legion in your eyes? They are legion, numberless, a horde from hell, spitting blood and curses at distant Terra. Does numbers, support, and capability make them a Legion on it's own? Are the Red Corsairs now a Legion as well?

 

I've always defined them as a legion of black. Dark hearts, with no fidelity or loyalty beyond crushing Holy Terra.

 

The Legions were a brotherhood. The Black Legion are a numberless band with the same goal.

 

The difference is subtle, but powerful.

[Demus Ragnok]

They are reborn, and are better for it. The better question is, what makes them a Legion in your eyes? They are legion, numberless, a horde from hell, spitting blood and curses at distant Terra. Does numbers, support, and capability make them a Legion on it's own? Are the Red Corsairs now a Legion as well?

 

I've always defined them as a legion of black. Dark hearts, with no fidelity or loyalty beyond crushing Holy Terra.

 

The Legions were a brotherhood. The Black Legion are a numberless band with the same goal.

 

The difference is subtle, but powerful.

 

So you are saying that the "Legions" fought as a whole.

 

Where as the "Legion" just happens to be a bunch of guys that are all fighting one common enemy "most" of the time.

[Hyaenidae]

Fought as a brotherhood. A family, shoulder to shoulder.

 

And your second legion definition is about right. Add in the occasional in-fighting. And throat slitting. And ditching of allies. et cetera.

 

EDIT: And insane minions. That's a factor as well.

[Marshal Rohr]

Legions were far superior to anything that came after.

[Kol Saresk]

Legions were far superior to anything that came after.

Even themselves.

[Vesper]

Legions were far superior to anything that came after.

I don't think you actually get the scale of the Black Legion.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Legions were far superior to anything that came after.

I don't think you actually get the scale of the Black Legion.

 

 

Size doesn't necessarily equal superiority.

[Marshal Rohr]

I don't think you understand the idea that the Black Legion would be realistically capable of doing anything is a joke. I mean seriously the 40k chaos legion is about as believable as Emma Goldman running for president. Besides, the Black Legion doesn't exist in 30K therefore it does not exist at all.

[Vesper]

When you got titans, traitor guard and daemons on top of an entire legion of Astartes, it slowly begins to pile up.

 

 

I don't think you understand the idea that the Black Legion would be
realistically capable of doing anything is a joke. I mean seriously the
40k chaos legion is about as believable as Emma Goldman running for
president.

 

Wut ?

 

 

Besides, the Black Legion doesn't exist in 30K therefore it
does not exist at all.

It clearly isn't a legion per se. Even though they are heirs to that kind of structure. Legions were limited in their ways by their very nature and their role in the Imperium warmachine. Those are indeed strikingly different from the Black Legion (or the Red Corsairs, mind you).

[Kol Saresk]

And yet the running gag is "Failbaddon".

*Note: I do not personally agree to the concept of Failbaddon. However, it has taken Abaddon ten thousand years to build to taking Terra versus Horus' seven years to blitzkrieg it.

[Marshal Rohr]

Last I checked Abaddon wasn't knocking on the doors yet

[Kol Saresk]

Last I checked Abaddon wasn't knocking on the doors yet

I don't recall saying he was. I believe I said "he was building up to take Terra".