The best legion (please don't hurt me...) *Hides*

[A D-B]

*Shakes head* I'm not gonna argue with the guy who is literally re-writing the Black Legion as we speak, and who has breathed life into the World Eaters and Night Lords, the two forces I used to see as the most bland cultures ever (and for that, you have my upmost respect). I'll just sit around and wait for you to prove me wrong. Again.

Just.... stop killing all my favorite characters, alright? Mercutian, Aquilion, Lhorke, Argel Tal.... enough already.

It's no secret that I have immense respect for your perceptions on this stuff. I mean, I have a mountain of respect for the perceptions of most of this board, but there's about two dozen posters that I do backs-and-forths with a little more often, and it's more like an infrequent conversation across a bunch of topics, if you get me.

So when I say "I disagree" with you, 1kH, I'm not saying "I think you're totally wrong and basically suck". I'm saying "I think there's another angle too, but I'll try to include every angle I can, and I think other angles need to shine a bit more than they have before."

It's unavoidable, sometimes, that a novel or background book has to confirm X, Y, and Z, no matter how much you try to preserve the mystery in something. But this is another one of those cases where I want the subject to be true depending on the perspective of who's looking at it, whether they're in the universe holding a bolter, or sat on the bus and holding a novel.

[Vesper]

 

I am the guy that expected Unremembered Empire to be a political intrigue piece.

I like you, as a person.

[Marshal Rohr]

Somebody needs to make a damn political intrigue piece for 30k.

[Conn Eremon]

Well, there is opportunity for that in A D-B's Master of Mankind. Though I have no idea what details it might include, so he might not expand on that sort of thing.

 

Would be nice though. A Navigator book would be good for that, as would a non-spy network Sigillite book.

[GhostMalone]

It's no secret that I have immense respect for your perceptions on this stuff. I mean, I have a mountain of respect for the perceptions of most of this board, but there's about two dozen posters that I do backs-and-forths with a little more often, and it's more like an infrequent conversation across a bunch of topics, if you get me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So I wonder who are amongst those that argue...

 

:P

[Kais Klip]

Well, there is opportunity for that in A D-B's Master of Mankind. Though I have no idea what details it might include, so he might not expand on that sort of thing.

Would be nice though. A Navigator book would be good for that, as would a non-spy network Sigillite book.

We got a Navigator book. Outcast Dead was the last Navigator book, and that book made me want to slap the Navigator alongside whoever decided said Navigator should get more pages than a twin world eater who aspired to do physics.

[Excessus]

The Alpha Legion was a very young and ambitious at the time the heresy started. Even though they were the youngest, and their Primarch(s) the least experienced in warfare, they were still rivalling the other legions in strength. If the heresy had not happened, I can't even imagine how the Alphas would have developed.

To be fair, they were experienced enough to board the Vengeful Spirit and make it to the bridge. Maybe they weren't experienced in Legion Warfare, but they were experienced in general warfare.

Though, they didn't. They boarded a ship that was scouting ahead of the main fleet (horus needed to intervene because the situation was so dire for the ship, I guess he had a hunch something was up). Could be anything really from battle barge to cruiser, but it wasn't the vengeful spirit...unfortunately...it would have been awesome!

And yeah, even the Alpha Legion does not fight as a legion anymore in 40k for sure, they are divided up all over the place...the cancer in the stomache of the imperium of man. Though I find it important to diffrentiate between "fighting as a legion" and "being a legion". They still follow their old doctrines, set by the primarch(s) and I assume they are still following some sort of general plan handed down from some sort of command structure, but they aren't a united fighting force anymore and will never again gather up on the same battlefield...

[depthcharge12]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know. ,aye because the Emperor isn't gonna fight Abaddon. Being dead and all.

 

Even if Horus won the sword fight on Vengeful Spirit, he'd still have had his forces stuck between the defenses of Terra (I doubt the Khan, Valdor, Sigismund, and Amit would throw the gates open just because the Emperor was beaten) and the inbound Ultramarines, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves.

The Siege was Horus betting everything on a single knockout punch, and it failed miserably.

Abaddon's game is to slowly wear the Imperium down with a multitude of small punches, blows that might seem like nothing in and off themselves, but add up over time.

Thus ten thousand years of preparation instead of "Point the Spirit's nose at Terra and hit the gas! YEEEEAAAAH!"

Those who haven't read history are doomed to repeat it.

And Abbadon needs to do a lot of reading.

How bout that Eliphas guy? :P

That's not really fair. I mean, the archenemy of Mankind in the 40K is setting is Chaos. And it's not a setting about hope and victory, it's a setting about humanity's last gasp, where the Imperium is a byzantine, crumbling, decadent institution raging against the dying of the light. As much as anything regarding the "end" of 40K is conjecture, anyone who wants to put the smart money down will likely slap it on "Abaddon will probably kill the Imperium, then the tyranids will probably eventually kill the galaxy."

 

Failbaddon meme aside, the point of Abaddon as a character and a narrative element is that he's Chaos's best chance to win. Horus was duped, Abaddon has resisted being used. Horus had Chaos's favour; Abaddon bears the Mark of Chaos Ascendant. The very point behind Abaddon is that he's doing it right. He's not Horus's lesser reflection. He's the one destined to actually pull the trigger, when Horus realised at the very end he'd been tricked into holding the gun.

 

 

I used to get that....grimdark....feeling, but somehow I don't feel it quite as much in 40k lore now.

 

 

I unfortunately get stuck on astartes becoming friends with xenos scum and previous ideas within some of the astartes sub culture took a u turn which had (I use this loosely) been somewhat thought of as concrete for each facet.

 

 

I want less hope and joy, and more life absolutely sucks in the future and we have little hope as a species. It's why I listen to Korn man!

 

 

 

 

Could you extrapolate more detail on Abbadons goal post destroying Terra?

 

 

 

*sigh*

 

ADB....all's I'm asking you for is to work your magic and bring back some terror and grimdark. You have yet to fail us, and I hope for all our sake you never do.

[Excessus]

Friends is a strong word to use in the same sentence as astartes... ;)

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

Well, there is opportunity for that in A D-B's Master of Mankind. Though I have no idea what details it might include, so he might not expand on that sort of thing.

Would be nice though. A Navigator book would be good for that, as would a non-spy network Sigillite book.

We got a Navigator book. Outcast Dead was the last Navigator book, and that book made me want to slap the Navigator alongside whoever decided said Navigator should get more pages than a twin world eater who aspired to do physics.

A single Navigator character does not mean that The Outcast Dead was a book about Navigator Houses.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

I might have to say Blood Angels because they were my very first army and also allowed me to have my greatest memory of playing a game of 40k.

 

I was in a tourney at the LGS and going up against a Chaos player with an army that was almost all Khorne Berzerkers, and every single time he attacked with a unit, he would shout "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOOD" as he rolled his to-hit dice. This became really annoying really quickly, as I'm sure you can imagine. That particular game, I had rolled exceptionally well on my Death Company rolls(or exceptionally poorly, depending on how you felt about them) and ended up with a Chaplain leading 16 of the frothing-mad buggers, all equipped with jump packs. I leap in on a squad of 10 Berzerkers hoofing it across the board after I knocked out their Rhino the turn before and proceeding to crush them into the dirt, losing only one Death Company marine in the process. Sweeping advance piles them straight into the command squad, where his Lord and retinue are wiped out in a single turn, only inflicting two casualties on me.

 

He's very upset that I just booted him straight out of the tournament, so I lean in close to him and yell "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD ANGELS!"

[Kol Saresk]

I might have to say Blood Angels because they were my very first army and also allowed me to have my greatest memory of playing a game of 40k.

 

I was in a tourney at the LGS and going up against a Chaos player with an army that was almost all Khorne Berzerkers, and every single time he attacked with a unit, he would shout "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOOD" as he rolled his to-hit dice. This became really annoying really quickly, as I'm sure you can imagine. That particular game, I had rolled exceptionally well on my Death Company rolls(or exceptionally poorly, depending on how you felt about them) and ended up with a Chaplain leading 16 of the frothing-mad buggers, all equipped with jump packs. I leap in on a squad of 10 Berzerkers hoofing it across the board after I knocked out their Rhino the turn before and proceeding to crush them into the dirt, losing only one Death Company marine in the process. Sweeping advance piles them straight into the command squad, where his Lord and retinue are wiped out in a single turn, only inflicting two casualties on me.

 

He's very upset that I just booted him straight out of the tournament, so I lean in close to him and yell "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD ANGELS!"

I don't know, I kind f like the idea of a battle cry.

[Kais Klip]

 

 

 

Well, there is opportunity for that in A D-B's Master of Mankind. Though I have no idea what details it might include, so he might not expand on that sort of thing.

Would be nice though. A Navigator book would be good for that, as would a non-spy network Sigillite book.

We got a Navigator book. Outcast Dead was the last Navigator book, and that book made me want to slap the Navigator alongside whoever decided said Navigator should get more pages than a twin world eater who aspired to do physics.

A single Navigator character does not mean that The Outcast Dead was a book about Navigator Houses.

We got some bite-sized politics, a tour through the Palace and more importantly the psyker tower, an inside view of navigator operations and a hell of a lot of psychic imagery, what more could you want? Unless you are referring to the insane power sway the Houses supposedly hold, in which case I would agree with your interest, but there's little way we would get something like that in the heresy era when it could slide so well into the Inquisition.

 

Then again, we did have Nemesis.

 

I liked Nemesis.

[Conn Eremon]

I saw bureaucracy and geography, but no politics. I saw events that surrounded the Palace, but little about the Palace. I am not saying anything bad about the book, just that it didn't provide what we are currently talking about.

[Marshal Rohr]

I mean, wouldn't it be cool if someone decided to write about the political intrigue of getting the none insane Primarchs to join Horus? Like Perturabo and Mortarion? What about the bickering and feuding going on with the various bourgeois families on Terra? I'd like to see Dorn pulling some Tywin Lannister style moves in an immense game of political chess where Malcador is pursuing whatever esoteric agenda he and the Emperor have, Horus' agents are sowing dissent, some anti-unification lobbies are throwing their lot in with Horus in an attempt to bring the whole system down, religious hold outs winning converts in the sub levels and inciting unrest.

 

 

I mean for the love of god, I NEED POLITICAL INTRIGUE. Too much fighting becomes tedious. 

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

Thousand Sons, they narrowly lost against the space wolves even after being sabotaged by Magnus and if Tzeentch hadn't had made the flesh change, they could have handed any legion it's ass with LAZERS!!

[JeffJedi]

The Dark Angels have lasted the longest...

[GhostMalone]

And the lion lives, and they have near legion capabilities 10,000 years past the breaking of the legions

[The Acid Dog]

*snip*

That's not really fair. I mean, the archenemy of Mankind in the 40K is setting is Chaos. And it's not a setting about hope and victory, it's a setting about humanity's last gasp, where the Imperium is a byzantine, crumbling, decadent institution raging against the dying of the light. As much as anything regarding the "end" of 40K is conjecture, anyone who wants to put the smart money down will likely slap it on "Abaddon will probably kill the Imperium, then the tyranids will probably eventually kill the galaxy."

Failbaddon meme aside, the point of Abaddon as a character and a narrative element is that he's Chaos's best chance to win. Horus was duped, Abaddon has resisted being used. Horus had Chaos's favour; Abaddon bears the Mark of Chaos Ascendant. The very point behind Abaddon is that he's doing it right. He's not Horus's lesser reflection. He's the one destined to actually pull the trigger, when Horus realised at the very end he'd been tricked into holding the gun.

With you, except on the points of "humanity's last gasp" and what the smart bet is. The preordained extinction of humanity in the 40kverse implied by the word "last" makes the game pointless. If I were to discover one day that the minds behind 40k had all decided that, on the first day of the 42nd millennium (or whatever date) all of humanity was consumed by the Dark Gods/Tyranids/Necrons/Enslavers/whatever - and that was that - I would stop playing. The same would happen if humanity's victory was preordained. I like the uncertainty of the future in the 40kverse. The possibility of victory gives me a reason to play and read, and the possibility of defeat that goes with it makes it all much more exciting. It feels much more like a living universe locked in a desperate struggle for survival, dominance, and freedom - something I get to take part in, rather than have fed to me. I know (or at least I hope!) you're not saying that eventual defeat and extinction is the case, I'm just ranting.

As for Abaddon, I like the idea of him being a the biggest threat to the Imperium, and I was pleased when I discovered that his previous crusades were being expanded on to escape the "Failbaddon" meme. Doing it right though... eh, I'm not so sure. He plays a much longer game, certainly, and he may even be more dangerous than Horus, but no one makes pacts with the Dark Gods without a price greater than what was agreed. If he thinks he's resisted being used or manipulated, and that the Chaos Gods won't take their price from him at the worst possible moment, then he's as much a fool as the rest of the sell-souls. There are other players in his game, and they've been playing it for much longer. He may crash through the Cadian Gate, and burn a path to Terra itself, but the Chaos Gods (barring the intervention of all others) will keep him from his victory the moment he reaches to grasp it. If only, in their immortal cruelty, to laugh and prove what a pathetic, presumptuous mortal he is. Frankly, I'd be disappointed with them if they didn't.

Lastly: No Tyranid victory. Tyranids are boring, in my not-so-humble opinion.

[Hyaenidae]

As enlightening as this discussion on the Black Legion has been (and it honestly has been), I respectfully request we either return to the OP's topic, based within the year 30k, or this thread be moved for further discussion.

 

If I get dragged into another "is 40k grimdark anymore?" thread, the Mods might shoot me.

[The Nephilim]

Well... This definitely didn't turn into the my bolter is bigger argument that I thought it would devolve into. The insights and arguments pertaining to the Black Legion was most interesting.

 

As to the OP, I'm voting for the III Legion. Not only did they seek perfection, they found it. They were warrior/scholar/artists seeking to balance themselves for a time when the Astartes weren't needed. Now it didn't quite turn out in the manner they were thinking, but it will do. Without the IIIrd, we'd never have the best mid-range weapons in the game: sonic weapons.

 

And uh... my bolter's bigger. ;)

[The Acid Dog]

And uh... my bolter's bigger.

... Fetch the measurement servitor.

[A D-B]

 

 

*snip*

 

That's not really fair. I mean, the archenemy of Mankind in the 40K is setting is Chaos. And it's not a setting about hope and victory, it's a setting about humanity's last gasp, where the Imperium is a byzantine, crumbling, decadent institution raging against the dying of the light. As much as anything regarding the "end" of 40K is conjecture, anyone who wants to put the smart money down will likely slap it on "Abaddon will probably kill the Imperium, then the tyranids will probably eventually kill the galaxy."

 

Failbaddon meme aside, the point of Abaddon as a character and a narrative element is that he's Chaos's best chance to win. Horus was duped, Abaddon has resisted being used. Horus had Chaos's favour; Abaddon bears the Mark of Chaos Ascendant. The very point behind Abaddon is that he's doing it right. He's not Horus's lesser reflection. He's the one destined to actually pull the trigger, when Horus realised at the very end he'd been tricked into holding the gun.

 

 

With you, except on the points of "humanity's last gasp" and what the smart bet is. The preordained extinction of humanity in the 40kverse implied by the word "last" makes the game pointless.  

 

Your life will end with you dying. It doesn't make your life pointless.

 

Ultimately, 40K is a doomed mythic dystopia, with no Good Guys, no Blue Team. Have you ever played Werewolf: the Apocalypse? Or played/watched/enjoyed any post-apocalyptic media, like The Walking Dead? They're not going to rebuild society, or even fight off the zombies in the end. The stories are about what happens in the world's last, enduring gasp. That's where the drama lies.

 

Everyone gets something different out of the game. The fact the Imperium will fall (and has been on a 10,000 year decline) has been front and centre to me in my understanding of 40K since I got into the hobby with Space Crusade and 2nd Edition's Codex Imperialis. It's central to the game's theme for me. It's what makes the game's atmosphere so amazing. If the Imperium wasn't doomed, It'd lose a lot of the flavour. 

 

For you, it's obviously a different thing/theme, but it's a reach to say the game would be pointless, when it's pretty much the core of the setting's vibe. A 40K setting where humanity's going to come out smiling at the end - or if the end is even in doubt - would be a terrifyingly different beastie.

[Augustus]

Sort of like how the Norse believed a majority of their gods would die during Ragnarok but still worshipped them and knew their gods knew they would lose but still they would fight. I dig that. The poop is hitting the galactic fan and barring the biggest miracle ever things are going to get stinky. Even knowing this the imperium fights on.

[Legatus]

 

Ultimately, 40K is a doomed mythic dystopia, with no Good Guys, no Blue Team.

 

Wut?

 

 

 

Everyone gets something different out of the game. The fact the Imperium will fall (and has been on a 10,000 year decline) has been front and centre to me in my understanding of 40K since I got into the hobby with Space Crusade and 2nd Edition's Codex Imperialis. It's central to the game's theme for me. It's what makes the game's atmosphere so amazing. If the Imperium wasn't doomed, It'd lose a lot of the flavour.

 

Of course everyone can find his own little spark that makes the universe click for him. Personally, I find the idea more compelling that the warfare will simply never end. The Orks can never be truly extinguished, since they literally spread like fungus. Chaos cannot be attacked on their own home turf, so will allways come back as well. And now space bugs have entered the galaxy from an unreachable origin, and there just seem to be coming more. For ten thousand years mankind has fought the most brutal wars on countless battlefields. Each new generation the people are thrown into the meatgrinder of war. And this will never be over. The threats will never be defeated. The brutal wars will go on for another ten thousand years, and then for another ten thousand years. It will never stop.