The best legion (please don't hurt me...) *Hides*

[The Acid Dog]

snip

Your life will end with you dying. It doesn't make your life pointless.

Ultimately, 40K is a doomed mythic dystopia, with no Good Guys, no Blue Team. Have you ever played Werewolf: the Apocalypse? Or played/watched/enjoyed any post-apocalyptic media, like The Walking Dead? They're not going to rebuild society, or even fight off the zombies in the end. The stories are about what happens in the world's last, enduring gasp. That's where the drama lies.

Everyone gets something different out of the game. The fact the Imperium will fall (and has been on a 10,000 year decline) has been front and centre to me in my understanding of 40K since I got into the hobby with Space Crusade and 2nd Edition's Codex Imperialis. It's central to the game's theme for me. It's what makes the game's atmosphere so amazing. If the Imperium wasn't doomed, It'd lose a lot of the flavour.

For you, it's obviously a different thing/theme, but it's a reach to say the game would be pointless, when it's pretty much the core of the setting's vibe. A 40K setting where humanity's going to come out smiling at the end - or if the end is even in doubt - would be a terrifyingly different beastie.

I should have added that I was only speaking for myself on the "pointless" charge.

You're quite right about my life not being pointless because it ends in death, but playing the tabletop to win and protect humanity when I know humanity will be extinct in a few scant years in-universe would be like saying my life has value when I know I will never have children and no one will ever be affected by me or my choices. My life would be worth nothing outside of the "circle of life," and that can get along just fine whether I'm alive or dead. Any and all religious or spiritual beliefs aside, of course.

I wouldn't make the mistake of calling anyone in 40k a "good guy," and that's something I really like about it. I'm only familiar with Werewolf by name, but I do enjoy other post-apocalyptic media. I've always seen them as more immediately extreme struggles for survival. No, the people in The Walking Dead won't rebuild civilization or wipe out all the zombies in the end, but that doesn't mean they can't survive or make something new. It may be extremely unlikely, but it's not impossible.** The drama, for me, stems from the fact that any and all of the characters could die at any moment, and many probably will. I want to see what they'll do to stay alive, and if they'll get a passing grade in nature's newest test. And that ties into the Imperium and humanity in 40k. Yes, the laboring beast we call the Imperium is doomed, and that's just fine. I even like it that way, but I'm arguing against the extinction of man, not the death of its crippled empire. Mankind's works may fall while it lives on. It's already happened once when mankind first left Earth for the stars. They fell apart swiftly, suffered long through Old Night, and then built the Imperium.

It's probably just me, but survival is victory in 40k. Any day mankind spends living in spite of all the doom (without recourse to eldritch or alien creatures who consider them tools at best and playthings at worst) is a day worth smiling about and worth killing for. It's another day I might spend spitting in the eye of mankind's foes and helping humanity claw its way to the top. If I lose that, I lose my reason for playing (I have little interest in reenactments). I don't doubt that the current and near-future events of 40k will end very badly for mankind, but that doesn't mean they have to be wiped out. I would be satisfied with a tenuous grip on life's razor, so long as we didn't fall.

And, if it has to be extinction, I'll not spend my time feeding mindless Tyranids, if that's alright. I'd rather be as spiteful to them in death as I was in life, and launch my biomass-rich corpse into the nearest star.

** - I've stopped watching that show, and I've never read the graphic novel, so I could be completely wrong about it and they could all be dead already.

[Kol Saresk]

Wow. We got philosophical for a second.

[Gorkimedes]

You could write one deep essay after reading this thread.

[AlabasterKnight]

 

 

 

 

 

*snip*

That's not really fair. I mean, the archenemy of Mankind in the 40K is setting is Chaos. And it's not a setting about hope and victory, it's a setting about humanity's last gasp, where the Imperium is a byzantine, crumbling, decadent institution raging against the dying of the light. As much as anything regarding the "end" of 40K is conjecture, anyone who wants to put the smart money down will likely slap it on "Abaddon will probably kill the Imperium, then the tyranids will probably eventually kill the galaxy."

 

Failbaddon meme aside, the point of Abaddon as a character and a narrative element is that he's Chaos's best chance to win. Horus was duped, Abaddon has resisted being used. Horus had Chaos's favour; Abaddon bears the Mark of Chaos Ascendant. The very point behind Abaddon is that he's doing it right. He's not Horus's lesser reflection. He's the one destined to actually pull the trigger, when Horus realised at the very end he'd been tricked into holding the gun.

 

With you, except on the points of "humanity's last gasp" and what the smart bet is. The preordained extinction of humanity in the 40kverse implied by the word "last" makes the game pointless.

Your life will end with you dying. It doesn't make your life pointless.

 

Ultimately, 40K is a doomed mythic dystopia, with no Good Guys, no Blue Team. Have you ever played Werewolf: the Apocalypse? Or played/watched/enjoyed any post-apocalyptic media, like The Walking Dead? They're not going to rebuild society, or even fight off the zombies in the end. The stories are about what happens in the world's last, enduring gasp. That's where the drama lies.

 

Everyone gets something different out of the game. The fact the Imperium will fall (and has been on a 10,000 year decline) has been front and centre to me in my understanding of 40K since I got into the hobby with Space Crusade and 2nd Edition's Codex Imperialis. It's central to the game's theme for me. It's what makes the game's atmosphere so amazing. If the Imperium wasn't doomed, It'd lose a lot of the flavour.

 

For you, it's obviously a different thing/theme, but it's a reach to say the game would be pointless, when it's pretty much the core of the setting's vibe. A 40K setting where humanity's going to come out smiling at the end - or if the end is even in doubt - would be a terrifyingly different beastie.

/rant/

I disagree respectfully: The players are the heroes/anti-heroes/protagonists.

No matter how deeply some may like the grim dark BS (obviously I think it has limits, and disagree with the extremity that many take it) - the game would be pointless if against all desire you and the authoring team constantly jam a demonic doomtool into the backside of the story to make it that much more difficult to sally up to the table and be competitive and frustrate the availability of goals for certain factions because of a dramatic 'flavour'.

 

Speaking only for myself:

I like GOOD GUYS.

I am one.

I like Garviel Loken first, and most, of all characters written about so far, followed closely by Garro. Why? Because they are the heroes, who despite the odds and pre-ordained outcomes (fluff in a loosely constructed game back story that prior to the Heresy series bore all the literary sophistication of teenage vampire novels) act in the viewpoint of a human player who fights for something greater than themselves and makes decisions based on recognizing when something is wrong. I worked at a GW at the time of his (Loken's) introduction and I can tell you with surety: There are just as many players who appreciate the good guys and tire of the hopeless portrayals. These are revenue spending hobbyists who play across from the Blood God guys shouting 'For the Emperor', 'For Humanity','For <<insert human world here>>!' or 'For <<insert primarch here>>!'. People were smiling and feeling good about the good guys even though we new it was going to be short-lived.

With respect again, before you and the team head into meetings thinking that every devout fan of the game believes that there is no hope, please do your best to restrain yourselves from being too trendy and closing the door to possibilities just too keep the jeopardy of doom attached to everything like a wash instruction tag.

 

Quote "I wouldn't make the mistake of calling anyone in 40k a good guy, and that's something I really like about it." No offense to this quoted battle brother, but good and evil are but shadows of the daily bread. Everyone makes their choice at the end of the day how they want to live the next and I'm sure that basic truth doesn't escape any sentient by the year 40k. I rather think you shouldn't call the lack of recognition for healthy protagonists a mistake to the detriment of the authors who shouldn't routinely snuff soft and fuzzy things with the regularity they do.

It's tragedy that people think that turning the surviving heroes into the Inquisition is a good thing. The Inquisition is part of the great apparatus that keeps the Imperium a non-human, non-thriving place. It's as evil as the forces of Chaos grasping from without.

Human beings aren't built the way the authors portray. We need to grow, adapt, believe, overcome, and be victorious, and it's in our nature to seek that. We follow genuine leadership and strive to live. The ugly side of who we are as a species is just that: one side. Nature abhors a vacuum and eventually, if the authors don't present any alternative for some players, the game will be pointless as stated above.

It's not a different beastie ADB. Just one that conveniently gets ignored a little too much.

 

Sorry to sound irritated,

An old battle brother.

/rantover/

[Don the Oiler]

This being the Horus Heresy section, the Tyrant's Legion is probably no option to choose?

Because honestly i find the idea of a Chapter Master in 40K trying to rebuild his Chapter to a Legion of old awesome, complete with human thrall-auxilia. Oh and FW's Astral Claws colour scheme is magnificent.

[Wade Garrett]

Gavriel Loken and Garro are good guys?

 

Garro's introduction saw him murdering baby aliens. Loken was a willing participant in the Great Crusade's crushing anything that wasn't a human kneeling at the Emperor's feet.

 

As for the Imperium being doomed...oddly enough, I can watch and enjoy Gladiator without hurling my drink at the screen and yelling that it's all pointless because Alaric sacked Rome in the end.

[Kol Saresk]

Correct. The Tyrant's Legion is not a choice. Neither is the Steel Legion. Technically neither was the Black Legion.

[Marshal Rohr]

30K is cool because it's the last time anything majorly important happens for 10,000 years. Even after 10,000 years the story isn't compelling enough.

 

I mean really, the Horus Heresy has become the focal point of all human history. If Horus had stayed loyal humanity would've gone on to bigger and better things. The only thing that happened is humanity shot itself in the foot and has been slipping back into old night. It isn't like Abaddon toppling the Imperium will end the human race, because it won't and any arguments that it could are wishful thinking. At best humanity will just fragment again, and drive on cut off from each other.

 

In the same way that Rome collapsing wasn't the end of humanity on earth, the Imperium collapsing is just another part of cyclical history. The idea that chaos will consume everything in 40k is directly contradicted by the fact that it didn't consume all the Eldar and they are still around. Chaos isn't really the forces of hell, and Abaddon isn't really the antichrist. It may feel like that to people living in the Imperium, but from a macro scale and objective point of view is it really? Or is it just another force in the universe science is unable to explain fully?

 

And more realistically, what happens if chaos does consume all life in the galaxy? Is chaos universal or is it regionally located just to our galaxy? When chaos does consume all life, it dies, because it's source of energy is cut off, so it's true goal would be to keep humanity alive and in a constant state of warfare. Abaddons goal, frankly, is counter intuitive and at odds with chaos' primary motivation of self sustainment. Why would chaos not actively try to stop Abaddon from cutting off the taps that keep them alive?

 

The argument for chaos being a real villain collapses under its own confliction. Even the argument that it is a force of nature fails, because the idea of toppling the Imperium would be maladaptive behavior on their part and ultimately rob them of their power.

[Kais Klip]

 

 

 

 

 

*snip*

That's not really fair. I mean, the archenemy of Mankind in the 40K is setting is Chaos. And it's not a setting about hope and victory, it's a setting about humanity's last gasp, where the Imperium is a byzantine, crumbling, decadent institution raging against the dying of the light. As much as anything regarding the "end" of 40K is conjecture, anyone who wants to put the smart money down will likely slap it on "Abaddon will probably kill the Imperium, then the tyranids will probably eventually kill the galaxy."

Failbaddon meme aside, the point of Abaddon as a character and a narrative element is that he's Chaos's best chance to win. Horus was duped, Abaddon has resisted being used. Horus had Chaos's favour; Abaddon bears the Mark of Chaos Ascendant. The very point behind Abaddon is that he's doing it right. He's not Horus's lesser reflection. He's the one destined to actually pull the trigger, when Horus realised at the very end he'd been tricked into holding the gun.

With you, except on the points of "humanity's last gasp" and what the smart bet is. The preordained extinction of humanity in the 40kverse implied by the word "last" makes the game pointless.

Your life will end with you dying. It doesn't make your life pointless.

Ultimately, 40K is a doomed mythic dystopia, with no Good Guys, no Blue Team. Have you ever played Werewolf: the Apocalypse? Or played/watched/enjoyed any post-apocalyptic media, like The Walking Dead? They're not going to rebuild society, or even fight off the zombies in the end. The stories are about what happens in the world's last, enduring gasp. That's where the drama lies.

Everyone gets something different out of the game. The fact the Imperium will fall (and has been on a 10,000 year decline) has been front and centre to me in my understanding of 40K since I got into the hobby with Space Crusade and 2nd Edition's Codex Imperialis. It's central to the game's theme for me. It's what makes the game's atmosphere so amazing. If the Imperium wasn't doomed, It'd lose a lot of the flavour.

For you, it's obviously a different thing/theme, but it's a reach to say the game would be pointless, when it's pretty much the core of the setting's vibe. A 40K setting where humanity's going to come out smiling at the end - or if the end is even in doubt - would be a terrifyingly different beastie.

/rant/

I disagree respectfully: The players are the heroes/anti-heroes/protagonists.

No matter how deeply some may like the grim dark BS (obviously I think it has limits, and disagree with the extremity that many take it) - the game would be pointless if against all desire you and the authoring team constantly jam a demonic doomtool into the backside of the story to make it that much more difficult to sally up to the table and be competitive and frustrate the availability of goals for certain factions because of a dramatic 'flavour'.

Speaking only for myself:

I like GOOD GUYS.

I am one.

I like Garviel Loken first, and most, of all characters written about so far, followed closely by Garro. Why? Because they are the heroes, who despite the odds and pre-ordained outcomes (fluff in a loosely constructed game back story that prior to the Heresy series bore all the literary sophistication of teenage vampire novels) act in the viewpoint of a human player who fights for something greater than themselves and makes decisions based on recognizing when something is wrong. I worked at a GW at the time of his (Loken's) introduction and I can tell you with surety: There are just as many players who appreciate the good guys and tire of the hopeless portrayals. These are revenue spending hobbyists who play across from the Blood God guys shouting 'For the Emperor', 'For Humanity','For <<insert human world here>>!' or 'For <<insert primarch here>>!'. People were smiling and feeling good about the good guys even though we new it was going to be short-lived.

With respect again, before you and the team head into meetings thinking that every devout fan of the game believes that there is no hope, please do your best to restrain yourselves from being too trendy and closing the door to possibilities just too keep the jeopardy of doom attached to everything like a wash instruction tag.

Quote "I wouldn't make the mistake of calling anyone in 40k a good guy, and that's something I really like about it." No offense to this quoted battle brother, but good and evil are but shadows of the daily bread. Everyone makes their choice at the end of the day how they want to live the next and I'm sure that basic truth doesn't escape any sentient by the year 40k. I rather think you shouldn't call the lack of recognition for healthy protagonists a mistake to the detriment of the authors who shouldn't routinely snuff soft and fuzzy things with the regularity they do.

It's tragedy that people think that turning the surviving heroes into the Inquisition is a good thing. The Inquisition is part of the great apparatus that keeps the Imperium a non-human, non-thriving place. It's as evil as the forces of Chaos grasping from without.

Human beings aren't built the way the authors portray. We need to grow, adapt, believe, overcome, and be victorious, and it's in our nature to seek that. We follow genuine leadership and strive to live. The ugly side of who we are as a species is just that: one side. Nature abhors a vacuum and eventually, if the authors don't present any alternative for some players, the game will be pointless as stated above.

It's not a different beastie ADB. Just one that conveniently gets ignored a little too much.

Sorry to sound irritated,

An old battle brother.

/rantover/

The narrative of 40k (although I might focus on the 31m) boils down to the classic Order vs Chaos. What sets 40k apart, or atleast used to, is its exploration on the theme of "how far down the Chaos path do the guys of Order bother going down to before they admit defeat? That is all, in my mind, that sets 40k apart from other fluffy carebear stuff like Star Wars or Star Trek; it's grimdark, and space marines. Let me preface by saying I might be the polar opposite to you; I am tired of good vs bad shticks, and I was refreshed by 40k because the good guys of the narrative would without a doubt play the antagonists in any other series (Star Wars empire). Now I also love last stands, moreover I love tragedy, the very definition of which is a story about unavoidable doom. Now I do not think these preferences are a result of personal factors; I do not think of myself as a brooding chap that wears black leather straps on his wrists, in actual fact I would consider myself an extreme, delusioned optimist at the best of time.

 

My preferences then are a result of a cultural need; I believe that today's fantasies are lacking in the depth of morality that they once did. Take Hercules of old, an ask how many people know he killed himself out of agony after his wife died? As I said, I like tragedy, I like last stands; part of the reason the Salamanders caught my eye was their preference for fights against the odds, which just so happened to align with the preferences of yours truly. I LOVE last samurai shenanigans. I will happily play battles which are stacked against me, and their ending does not concern me one bit, because I hold the fight as more important, more worthy, than the end. That extends to the narratives I follow, and I found the narratives that hold doom at the end to be infinitely more juicy in the fight than those that don't.

 

So I guess I'm one Imperium fan that balances your wishes out, and I drink that the Imperium keeps raging against the inevitable dying of the light, as ADB put it.

[Surrender_Monkey]

The Imperial Fists, they were the only Legion to never fail the Emperor, ever.

[helterskelter]

Hercules was made to kill his wife and kiddlywinks by a tricksy god, so id say agony rage was understandable.

On topic, if they didn't turn I thinkniron warriors would be one of the best. Throwing up an amphitheatre in that space of time? Not only that but being able to rip down any fortress also helps

[Kol Saresk]

 

The Imperial Fists, they were the only Legion to never fail the Emperor, ever.

Except when they let him die. :whistling:

[AlabasterKnight]

Gavriel Loken and Garro are good guys?

 

Garro's introduction saw him murdering baby aliens. Loken was a willing participant in the Great Crusade's crushing anything that wasn't a human kneeling at the Emperor's feet.

 

As for the Imperium being doomed...oddly enough, I can watch and enjoy Gladiator without hurling my drink at the screen and yelling that it's all pointless because Alaric sacked Rome in the end.

 

It's all perspective.

The Imperium might be doomed, but that doesn't mean humanity should be.

That is the point.

I don't game 40k in the absolute construct of the Imperium = Humans and I'm not alone; that's just a marketing opportunity missed imo.

And I think the game's authorship is smarter than that anyway.

[Wade Garrett]

Abaddon has an end goal that he's working towards, yes.

 

Chaos in general? It's not the destination, my friend, it's the journey!

 

Khorne is the Lord of War. And therefore his champions can never truly "win", that is, lay down their blades and enjoy the spoils of victory.

 

There's always another enemy, another battle. If not an external one, then a nemesis rising from within your own ranks.

 

No peace. Only war. That is the crimson path.

 

The same goes for Tzeencht's conspiracies and quest for knowledge, Slaanesh's delving into newer and more extreme pleasures, and Nurgle spreading

disease and despair.

 

There is no end, just more plotting, more hedonism, more infection, more, more, MORE!

 

And so Abaddon kills and conquers in a quest for a prize that he can never hold. Not really.

 

Even if he casts the Emperor's corpse to the fleshounds and seats himself on the Throne of Terra, the Long War will not end.

 

The Orkz breed, the Tyranids feed. Zhufor, Huron Blackheart, Erebus and so many more will press their own claims to the Despoiler's crown. His ten thousand year fight to take it will be just the prelude to his fight to keep it. The wheel turns and the cycle continues, spun by laughing, thirsting gods.

 

Truly, the Ruinous Powers torment us in two ways: When we don't get what we strive for, and when we do.

[Don the Oiler]

I always thought the idea was that with the end of the Imperium humanity would die as well. *Because* it's such a ruthless, tyrannic regime.

Any lesser "We must never lose what makes us human" treehugger people would long have perished at the hands of one of the smaller evils before the forces of Chaos were even widely known. Even the supposedly more liberal aliens like the Eldar and the Tau would be considered fascist and oppressive in our time.

For the first few HH novels i thought the Emperor had something "less oppressive" in mind and the Administratum later fragged it up, but as it is described now, the social difference to 10,000 years later isn't *that* obvious any more.

I think Warhammer is literally no story about morals, because all that's left is a galaxy full of murderers fighting for whoever is allowed to lead his miserable life a little longer.

Which, to be clear, i'm totally fine with.

[depthcharge12]

 

 

 

 

 

snip

 

Your life will end with you dying. It doesn't make your life pointless.

 

Ultimately, 40K is a doomed mythic dystopia, with no Good Guys, no Blue Team. Have you ever played Werewolf: the Apocalypse? Or played/watched/enjoyed any post-apocalyptic media, like The Walking Dead? They're not going to rebuild society, or even fight off the zombies in the end. The stories are about what happens in the world's last, enduring gasp. That's where the drama lies.

 

Everyone gets something different out of the game. The fact the Imperium will fall (and has been on a 10,000 year decline) has been front and centre to me in my understanding of 40K since I got into the hobby with Space Crusade and 2nd Edition's Codex Imperialis. It's central to the game's theme for me. It's what makes the game's atmosphere so amazing. If the Imperium wasn't doomed, It'd lose a lot of the flavour. 

 

For you, it's obviously a different thing/theme, but it's a reach to say the game would be pointless, when it's pretty much the core of the setting's vibe. A 40K setting where humanity's going to come out smiling at the end - or if the end is even in doubt - would be a terrifyingly different beastie.

I should have added that I was only speaking for myself on the "pointless" charge.

You're quite right about my life not being pointless because it ends in death, but playing the tabletop to win and protect humanity when I know humanity will be extinct in a few scant years in-universe would be like saying my life has value when I know I will never have children and no one will ever be affected by me or my choices.  My life would be worth nothing outside of the "circle of life," and that can get along just fine whether I'm alive or dead. Any and all religious or spiritual beliefs aside, of course.

I wouldn't make the mistake of calling anyone in 40k a "good guy," and that's something I really like about it.  I'm only familiar with Werewolf by name, but I do enjoy other post-apocalyptic media. I've always seen them as more immediately extreme struggles for survival.  No, the people in The Walking Dead won't rebuild civilization or wipe out all the zombies in the end, but that doesn't mean they can't survive or make something new.  It may be extremely unlikely, but it's not impossible.**  The drama, for me, stems from the fact that any and all of the characters could die at any moment, and many probably will. I want to see what they'll do to stay alive, and if they'll get a passing grade in nature's newest test. And that ties into the Imperium and humanity in 40k.  Yes, the laboring beast we call the Imperium is doomed, and that's just fine. I even like it that way, but I'm arguing against the extinction of man, not the death of its crippled empire.  Mankind's works may fall while it lives on.  It's already happened once when mankind first left Earth for the stars.  They fell apart swiftly, suffered long through Old Night, and then built the Imperium.

It's probably just me, but survival is victory in 40k.  Any day mankind spends living in spite of all the doom (without recourse to eldritch or alien creatures who consider them tools at best and playthings at worst) is a day worth smiling about and worth killing for. It's another day I might spend spitting in the eye of mankind's foes and helping humanity claw its way to the top.  If I lose that, I lose my reason for playing (I have little interest in reenactments). I don't doubt that the current and near-future events of 40k will end very badly for mankind, but that doesn't mean they have to be wiped out.  I would be satisfied with a tenuous grip on life's razor, so long as we didn't fall.

And, if it has to be extinction, I'll not spend my time feeding mindless Tyranids, if that's alright.  I'd rather be as spiteful to them in death as I was in life, and launch my biomass-rich corpse into the nearest star. :P 

** - I've stopped watching that show, and I've never read the graphic novel, so I could be completely wrong about it and they could all be dead already.

 

 

 

 

By launching yourself into the nearest star you are helping to feed the C'tan and therefore the necrons...

 

 

 

The Inquisition must kill you before you kill yourself!!!

[A D-B]

 

 

 

 

*snip*

That's not really fair. I mean, the archenemy of Mankind in the 40K is setting is Chaos. And it's not a setting about hope and victory, it's a setting about humanity's last gasp, where the Imperium is a byzantine, crumbling, decadent institution raging against the dying of the light. As much as anything regarding the "end" of 40K is conjecture, anyone who wants to put the smart money down will likely slap it on "Abaddon will probably kill the Imperium, then the tyranids will probably eventually kill the galaxy."

 

Failbaddon meme aside, the point of Abaddon as a character and a narrative element is that he's Chaos's best chance to win. Horus was duped, Abaddon has resisted being used. Horus had Chaos's favour; Abaddon bears the Mark of Chaos Ascendant. The very point behind Abaddon is that he's doing it right. He's not Horus's lesser reflection. He's the one destined to actually pull the trigger, when Horus realised at the very end he'd been tricked into holding the gun.

 

With you, except on the points of "humanity's last gasp" and what the smart bet is. The preordained extinction of humanity in the 40kverse implied by the word "last" makes the game pointless.

Your life will end with you dying. It doesn't make your life pointless.

 

Ultimately, 40K is a doomed mythic dystopia, with no Good Guys, no Blue Team. Have you ever played Werewolf: the Apocalypse? Or played/watched/enjoyed any post-apocalyptic media, like The Walking Dead? They're not going to rebuild society, or even fight off the zombies in the end. The stories are about what happens in the world's last, enduring gasp. That's where the drama lies.

 

Everyone gets something different out of the game. The fact the Imperium will fall (and has been on a 10,000 year decline) has been front and centre to me in my understanding of 40K since I got into the hobby with Space Crusade and 2nd Edition's Codex Imperialis. It's central to the game's theme for me. It's what makes the game's atmosphere so amazing. If the Imperium wasn't doomed, It'd lose a lot of the flavour.

 

For you, it's obviously a different thing/theme, but it's a reach to say the game would be pointless, when it's pretty much the core of the setting's vibe. A 40K setting where humanity's going to come out smiling at the end - or if the end is even in doubt - would be a terrifyingly different beastie.

/rant/

I disagree respectfully: The players are the heroes/anti-heroes/protagonists.

No matter how deeply some may like the grim dark BS (obviously I think it has limits, and disagree with the extremity that many take it) - the game would be pointless if against all desire you and the authoring team constantly jam a demonic doomtool into the backside of the story to make it that much more difficult to sally up to the table and be competitive and frustrate the availability of goals for certain factions because of a dramatic 'flavour'.

 

Speaking only for myself:

I like GOOD GUYS.

I am one.

I like Garviel Loken first, and most, of all characters written about so far, followed closely by Garro. Why? Because they are the heroes, who despite the odds and pre-ordained outcomes (fluff in a loosely constructed game back story that prior to the Heresy series bore all the literary sophistication of teenage vampire novels) act in the viewpoint of a human player who fights for something greater than themselves and makes decisions based on recognizing when something is wrong. I worked at a GW at the time of his (Loken's) introduction and I can tell you with surety: There are just as many players who appreciate the good guys and tire of the hopeless portrayals. These are revenue spending hobbyists who play across from the Blood God guys shouting 'For the Emperor', 'For Humanity','For <<insert human world here>>!' or 'For <<insert primarch here>>!'. People were smiling and feeling good about the good guys even though we new it was going to be short-lived.

With respect again, before you and the team head into meetings thinking that every devout fan of the game believes that there is no hope, please do your best to restrain yourselves from being too trendy and closing the door to possibilities just too keep the jeopardy of doom attached to everything like a wash instruction tag.

 

Quote "I wouldn't make the mistake of calling anyone in 40k a good guy, and that's something I really like about it." No offense to this quoted battle brother, but good and evil are but shadows of the daily bread. Everyone makes their choice at the end of the day how they want to live the next and I'm sure that basic truth doesn't escape any sentient by the year 40k. I rather think you shouldn't call the lack of recognition for healthy protagonists a mistake to the detriment of the authors who shouldn't routinely snuff soft and fuzzy things with the regularity they do.

It's tragedy that people think that turning the surviving heroes into the Inquisition is a good thing. The Inquisition is part of the great apparatus that keeps the Imperium a non-human, non-thriving place. It's as evil as the forces of Chaos grasping from without.

Human beings aren't built the way the authors portray. We need to grow, adapt, believe, overcome, and be victorious, and it's in our nature to seek that. We follow genuine leadership and strive to live. The ugly side of who we are as a species is just that: one side. Nature abhors a vacuum and eventually, if the authors don't present any alternative for some players, the game will be pointless as stated above.

It's not a different beastie ADB. Just one that conveniently gets ignored a little too much.

 

Sorry to sound irritated,

An old battle brother.

/rantover/

 

The people in the setting don't know they're doomed. That's the key, here. 

 

But the fact the Imperium is raging against the dying of the light and is ultimately screwed isn't exactly me bouncing in with a slice of new lore. It's Warhammer 40,000. The Emperor himself is on a life support machine powered by human souls, on a scale enough that humanity is stunting its own evolution, and that machine is failing. Look at the cover of Rogue Trader where you have a last stand of Space Marines back to back against overwhelming foes. Who looks at this setting and thinks it's going to end well?

[DuskRaider]

The obvious answer is Death Guard. They follow their orders the first time, they will do whatever it takes to win the battle, and they never back down. Their resilience and bravery is second to none.

 

The less obvious answer is still Death Guard.

[Gorkimedes]

So Guilliman isn't going to stand up , get off that pedestal and save us all? But.... Logistics...

[A D-B]

30K is cool because it's the last time anything majorly important happens for 10,000 years. Even after 10,000 years the story isn't compelling enough.

 

I mean really, the Horus Heresy has become the focal point of all human history.

 

In some ways, that's a natural belief from the game setting's massive focus on the Heresy, but one of the things that Ye Olde IP Gods have always made a compelling statement about is the notion that it's all cyclical. The Imperium is threatened by some galaxy-spanning civil conflict over and over and over again, like the Nova Terra Interrgnum or the Age of Apostasy, and while they lack the resonance of 25 years of mythic lore, they're still supposed to be incredibly major deals, almost on the Heresy's scale. Or in the case of the Legion Wars, fought literally within humanity's concept of Hell and the underworld, much bigger (just contained).

 

The idea that 40K is 10,000 years of basically nothing after the one major interesting event is sort of poison. Don't get me wrong, I'm not debating that some players will think (and like) that, and that we're all allowed to find our resonance where we choose, but as great and grand as the Horus Heresy was, the setting has immeasurably more to offer than that on scales that can even rival the Heresy in terms of conflict size and importance. I mean, most of the Imperium doesn't even know the Heresy happened. It's a focal point to us as readers. To the people of the setting, even those in the know, it's ancient near-meaningless history, like countless wars of the Ancient World are to us.

 

Of course, even in making this point, I still get flooded with squishy affection for the Heresy being the Famous Biggest and Bestest War. It is what it is.

 

 

If Horus had stayed loyal humanity would've gone on to bigger and better things. The only thing that happened is humanity shot itself in the foot and has been slipping back into old night. It isn't like Abaddon toppling the Imperium will end the human race, because it won't and any arguments that it could are wishful thinking.

 

Well, that and Abaddon doesn't want the human race to end. He's out for himself, just as Lucifer was, believing he can offer a more 'human' and 'mortal' perspective than a distant, inhuman god in the Emperor. Abaddon doesn't want the Imperium to burn and die. He wants to kill the Emperor and restart, to give humanity the future he believes it was supposed to have.

 

He's doing it in a profoundly evil and deluded way, but... so is everyone in 40K. It's all shades of black, not even shades of grey. I recognise his motives and the fact he has a point without thinking it's the Best Way Ever.

 

 

At best humanity will just fragment again, and drive on cut off from each other.

 

In the same way that Rome collapsing wasn't the end of humanity on earth, the Imperium collapsing is just another part of cyclical history. The idea that chaos will consume everything in 40k is directly contradicted by the fact that it didn't consume all the Eldar and they are still around. Chaos isn't really the forces of hell, and Abaddon isn't really the antichrist. It may feel like that to people living in the Imperium, but from a macro scale and objective point of view is it really? Or is it just another force in the universe science is unable to explain fully?

 

And more realistically, what happens if chaos does consume all life in the galaxy? Is chaos universal or is it regionally located just to our galaxy? When chaos does consume all life, it dies, because it's source of energy is cut off, so it's true goal would be to keep humanity alive and in a constant state of warfare. Abaddons goal, frankly, is counter intuitive and at odds with chaos' primary motivation of self sustainment. Why would chaos not actively try to stop Abaddon from cutting off the taps that keep them alive?

 

The argument for chaos being a real villain collapses under its own confliction. Even the argument that it is a force of nature fails, because the idea of toppling the Imperium would be maladaptive behavior on their part and ultimately rob them of their power.

 

Exactly. But that's been covered: Abaddon isn't doing it for the Chaos Gods. He recognises their use to him and his forces, but he actively resists them. They're the ones that come to him and Mark him and beg him and try to impress him. They don't want him to succeed without them. http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/lets-talk-about-abaddon/

[Adra'Melek]

And I say one of things I'm really liking about HH stuff, BL and FW, is that it makes pretty much all the Legions awesome (at least Pre-Heresy, before some went a bit icky, guys in Purple I'm looking at you). Out of the 8 released so far I wouldn't do Emperor's Children or Death Guard (because of personal prejudices against Slaanesh and Nurgle) are the only ones I wouldn't do (and they are both awesome before the Heresy).  All the Legions have depth, all the Legions have strengths, all the Legions have weakness. Grand.

 

Anyway, sorry for going off topic. Back to Abaddon and the Black Legion (who didn't exist in the Horus Heresy :))

[Kol Saresk]

Night Lords. I need death, despair and destruction. And in the shining Golden Age of the Great Crusade, they're it. Not the only ones mind you, just the ones whose shoes I can get into.

[Conn Eremon]

I'm going to end this debate right here.

 

The best Legion was the II Legion.

 

Go ahead. Prove me wrong.

[Kol Saresk]

I'm going to end this debate right here.

 

The best Legion was the II Legion.

 

Go ahead. Prove me wrong.

They're dead.

[Gorkimedes]

Objection! You can't prove that!