The best legion (please don't hurt me...) *Hides*

[Olis]

I think we're getting close to a point where this topic will have to be split unless we return to the original topic at hand. 

[Brother Usabius]

I was tryingto return to the Original topic, and Stormborn: They do not fail at their primary goal as they are not as great as say the Luna wolves/ sons of horus at conquering stuff, but still very able.

[GhostMalone]

See once again it returns to individuality

 

The ultras had the most compliances

Second to them were the DA and WB

 

The luna wolves/sons of Horus had the most campaigns (so better at xenos)

 

The world eaters were the best at exterminatus

 

The emperors children were the exemplars of perfection (strategies doctrines etc)

 

The fists and iron warriors were good in trench urban environments

 

It's all down to what you consider the best, I prefere a campaign of extermination hence why I prefere death guard and WE as they can perform that role better then say the BA or WS.

 

This topic can't be answered as we all differ and there are too many variables, the OP wasn't clear enough it needs a bit more clarification then explain why you think they are the best.

 

I could argue the WE are the best at xenos fighting due to angron slaughtering a whole craft world in 24hrs but the SoH I know had more victories in those campaigns

[TheForgottenAngel]

Dark Angels, the consummate First Legion and more intrigue, mystery and secrets then the other legions besides the Alpha Legion

[Darrell]

I like the Imperial Fists and Rogal Dorn, although they haven't gotten much attention from the Heresy books. But, I like the idea of Dorn and his Legion. I like what I've read about them, and the image I have in my mind.

 

There was a post in the thread that said the Fists were boring, and Dorn was a [jerk]. It's not an uncommon sentiment and, while everyone is entitled to their reasons, I'd like to talk about mine. Been wanting to write something like this for a while, and this seems like a good excuse.

 

I guess you could say the Imperial Fists are boring. They're boring in the same way that a family man who works a 9-5 salary job every day is boring. He gets up early and goes to work like clockwork, and while he's there he works hard. A quiet worker. You don't hear much from him, unless it's related to something you need his help with or vice-versa. He puts in a lot of hours, he doesn't take many sick days or vacation days, and he never complains. He doesn't demand a raise, but he takes one when offered if he feels he earned it. He accepts gratitude and acknowledges it, but he does not expect it. He likes the work he does, he enjoys it, it gives him purpose. To his coworkers, he comes off as cold and distant. You never see him shooting the breeze at the water cooler, he's not on the company softball team, he doesn't come to the after-work parties. But he's not aloof, he doesn't think he's better than anyone. He's just busy. The boss gives him a lot of work to do, and he keeps at it until it's done. And he's doing work for others, too, because he has an unbreakable will to complete his projects. Where others throw up their hands in surrender, where others say it can't be done, he finds a way. It's not always a pretty solution, or an elegant one, but he will get it done because that's what he does.

 

When he goes home, he spends time with his family. He loves his sons. He works as hard with them as he does for his boss. He teaches them how to be good men, how to succeed in life, to never stop trying until you find a way to get it done. Never give in, never surrender, never stop fighting for what you believe in. As cold as he is at work, he opens up when he's with his sons. Not too much, because they crave an authority figure, but he cares deeply for them. He helps them how he can, imparts all his wisdom. He has high expectations of them, but he doesn't need to point out their failures. His sons know full well their weaknesses, and they are harder on themselves than he could ever be. They're just like him, in that way. Then he gets up the next morning, and does it all again.

 

To his coworkers, to his neighbors, to you he is boring and dull. To his boss, he's the man you can count on, rely on, depend upon to do any job you ask him. Even if he doesn't know how, he'll figure it out. To his sons, he's an inspiration, a loving father, an immovable foundation for their lives. To them, he's anything but boring.

 

It's unfortunate that the Imperial Fists are known only for their siege warfare, because they were good at so many other things. They were just as fierce in close combat, boarding actions, armor assaults and drop pod formations as anyone else. But not all combat can be glorious. War sometimes requires dirty, grueling work. The other Legions thought it beneath them, that it should be left to lesser beings. But Dorn would never ask someone to do something he, himself, would not. So when the siege work and grinding urban warfare came to him, as it inevitably did, he accepted it. Dorn was happy to do whatever his father, the Emperor, and the Imperium needed him to do. He was just happy to do his father's work, as were the Imperial Fists. They would have been content to mop floors and wash windows, if that's what was needed of them. They welcomed the burden of duty.

 

There was another Legion that was similar, of course. Perturabo and the Iron Warriors were also known as siege specialists and urban combatants. They, too, willingly fed themselves into that vicious meatgrinder where others would not. But Perturabo did not do it for duty, or for loyalty; he did it searching for glory. He thought that taking the jobs no one else would do would bring him glory and favor. But when it didn't come, his heart grew bitter. Unlike his brother, he expected gratitude. He felt ignored, cheated, denied, forgotten. This was why he and Dorn bickered. For while Dorn may not have often smiled, nor did he frown. He simply did what was asked, with his jaw set to the task, unable to smile and laugh in the most recent victory because his mind was already turned to the things that needed to be done and those things that could have been done better. Dorn thought his brother should have been happy to serve the Emperor's will, as was Dorn himself. He did not understand why Perturabo felt he needed more.

 

Dorn was many things, but a glib speaker was not one of them. He loved his brothers dearly, and the only thing he loved more than his brothers were the Emperor and the Imperium. Rogal was the sort of man that knows what he wants to say, but has difficulties expressing his thoughts the way he wants to. He always admired Horus and Sanguinius for their speaking ability and charisma. It was this inability to express himself, and a perspective that was stubbornly rooted in his own place, that caused friction amongst his fellow Primarchs. He never meant to quarrel with Perturabo, for there was a deep kinship there, but Dorn could not understand that, for some, duty was just not enough. When he said the Imperial Palace could withstand an Iron Warrior attack, he meant it as a general who was defending a structure he, himself, had built. Dorn would have greater insight than Perturabo into the layout, its strengths, its weaknesses. If Perturabo had built it, Dorn would have said he could not take it for the same reasons. But his brother had already taken insult, and it cut deeply that Dorn had inadvertently hurt his brother so.

 

He had a similar problem with Konrad. Dorn knew his brother had led a difficult life prior to being found by the Emperor, and he knew the Night Haunter was deeply troubled. Rogal did not pity him, because pity is reserved for those things seen as lesser than yourself and Dorn did not see himself as superior to anyone--especially not his brothers. But he did care for Konrad in his own way, and hoped his brother would find peace for his troubled mind. When Fulgrim shared Konrad's disturbing vision, he did not intend to fight with him. Dorn was wounded that Konrad would think so little of the Emperor, who was the only being Dorn loved more than his brothers (Konrad included). He only wanted to remind Konrad that the Emperor loved them, that He would never do such things. Dorn wanted to say he was sure Konrad's visions were horrifying, but that did not make them true and the Haunter should know the difference. But, Dorn could not express himself that way. He came across as accusatory, aggressive, hateful. It came as a complete shock when Konrad attacked him and, as with Perturabo, Dorn would look back at his words and actions with a heart full of regret. If only he had his brothers' way with words, he would have known the right thing to say.

 

But, Dorn was a soldier first, foremost and always. While his brothers pursued other things like art, governing, crafting, magic, religion, Dorn focused on being a warrior and a general. In his mind, that was what the Emperor needed them to be at that time. Books, politicking, forges and statues would not reconquer the galaxy. This was a sticking point between himself and Guilliman, though the two otherwise got along well. Guilliman liked to argue they could not be soldiers forever. When peace came, they would have to be leaders. What Dorn saw was his brother putting his cart before the horse. Peace had not yet been won. Humans still existed in darkness beyond the Imperium's light. Aliens continued to defy Mankind's destiny. There would come a time for Astartes to do other things, to be other things, but this was not that time. Now they needed to go forth and conquer, with minds free of other pursuits that would only cloud their judgement. It was a problem with Lorgar as well. Dorn understood Aurelian's love and devotion to the Emperor, for he shared it as deeply, but Lorgar's worship went contrary to their father's wishes. And Dorn put his father's wishes above everyone's. Including his brothers'. Including his own.

 

I've talked a lot about Dorn's good sides, but he wasn't perfect and he would have been the first to admit it. He had his pride, his honor, his narrow focus, his stubborn nature, his serious demeanor that put distance between him and his brothers. Rogal knew these things for he was more aware of his faults han anyone else. That was why he made the Pain Glove, to purge the weakness from him even when that weakness was imagined.

 

I hear a lot of people talk about Dorn being "emo", and it's difficult for people who haven't punished themselves to understand. Those with a history of self-harm, I think, can relate well to Dorn's mentality (I want to pause long enough to say you should not harm yourself. You are a way cool person. If you feel the need to hurt yourself, talk to someone about it. This is going to sound like glorifying the act, which I am, but in the context of understanding a fictional character. Don't self-harm, please). Pain can be a purifying thing, a tool to focus the mind, to strengthen the spirit and a way to ensure you won't make the same mistake again. Cultures today are filled with these ideas. We spank children because pain is the ultimate teacher. We say things like "No pain, no gain" and "Pain is the feeling of weakness leaving the body". Movies glorify characters who are shot, stabbed, break bones and dislocate joints yet grit their teeth and carry on to save the day. We brag about having a high pain tolerance and, like alcohol tolerance, there is only one way to build it. You must drink deep, and often.

 

Besides, how else could Dorn and his Fists punish themselves? They are Astartes, they own no possessions to take away. They have no privileges to revoke. You can't ground them from fighting, because that's the entire reason they were made. You can't kill them, because that's wasting the Emperor's resources. You can't physically wound them, because they must be in peak condition to wage war. But Dorn found a way to inflict pain without damage, because an Astartes or Primarch damaging their flesh is spitting in the face of the Emperor to whom their body belongs.

 

Think about this: Imperial Fists willingly go into the Pain Glove for every mistake, real or imagined, they make. The Pain Glove is said to feel like your entire body is submerged in liquid fire. And they do this to themselves, for minutes at a time, up to an hour. Can you imagine wearing napalm for an hour, willingly? Can you imagine doing it for a minute? Ten seconds? That's why the Imperial Fists are impossible to break, because there is no pain you can inflict upon them that is greater than that which they inflict upon themselves. As the Joker says in Dark Knight, "You have nothing to threaten me with."

 

One more thing I'd like to discuss, and then I'll be finished with this lengthy monologue.

 

The Iron Cage is something you hear a lot about, if you're a fan of Dorn or the Imperial Fists. It will inevitably be discussed. "Dorn was being an emo jerk", "The Ultramarines saved their butts", "The Iron Warriors tricked them because the center was a shooting gallery", "The Imperial Fists and Dorn would have been wiped out if Perturabo wasn't too busy gloating", "Dorn went crazy and forced his Legion into a meatgrinder they never recovered from".

 

I hope I've helped explain who Rogal Dorn was, because to understand why the Iron Cage happened you have to understand Dorn. It wasn't a pleasant time in his life. It was his absolute lowest point. Half his brothers had betrayed the Imperium, and it was Dorn that retrieved fallen Sanguinius, a brother he loved and admired, and the mortally wounded Emperor. His father, who he loved most. It was Dorn that heard his last words, that carried out his final wishes. Dorn, who loved the Emperor more than any other Primarch, had to carry the burden of his father's shattered body to the tomb of the Golden Throne. And with it, he knew, he was entombing his father's vision of the Imperium. It weighed heavily upon him, and Dorn blamed himself for it. Even though it wasn't his fault, even though there was nothing he could have done to prevent it, even though no one could have changed the outcome, he blamed himself. He took that burden upon himself, because he was used to carrying burdens. Dorn's shoulders were broad, and the Imperium rested well upon them. That raised eagle above his armor was far more than decoration; in his mind, he and his Legion shouldered the responsibility of fulfilling the Emperor's vision. He carried the Imperium on his shoulders, as did the Imperial Fists, and they could only blame themselves as they began to pick up the pieces.

 

Dorn knew what the Iron Cage was because, while he had faults, being stupid was not one of them. He knew it was a trap, that it was a battle that could not be won--it could only be endured. It was a Pain Glove for himself and the Fists. You don't go into the Glove to win. It's not something you can beat. It is an act of atonement, of purification.

 

It can only be endured.

 

Guilliman had convinced the High Lords that the Legions must be broken, that Chapters must be formed from their remains, but the Imperial Fists did not want to separate. It would mean leaving their father, who had been a constant presence in their lives. It would mean throwing the last handful of dirt upon the memory of the Great Crusade. Yet they were given no choice. The Navy had fired upon them. Guilliman had called them traitors. Guilliman, who did not bleed to defend the Palace. Guilliman, who did not carry the body of the Emperor from that cursed ship. Guilliman, who did not hear the last words of the Emperor and they said nothing of Chapters. Guilliman, who had finally become the politician he yearned to be.

 

With no other recourse, the Imperial Fists did the only thing they could. They would rather die as Legionnaires than live as something lesser, in their minds, than what the Emperor intended. They went to the Iron Cage without planning, for winning was never the goal of it. Sure, Dorn had said he would bring Perturabo to Terra in an iron cage, but he couldn't make his brothers understand the true reasons. He would have brought Perturabo back if events had transpired that way, but it wasn't why he went.

 

The Ultramarines didn't save them from anything. The Imperial Fists wanted to suffer, to bleed, to atone for their perceived failure, to die as their beloved Emperor had died. But, the Iron Warriors weren't up to the task. Whether out of fear of the price required, whether out of perverse satisfaction of watching the last battle of their hated Legion rivals (A hatred that was never reciprocated), they could not go through with it. They would have fled before being forced to spend the last of their lives, which would have robbed them of the glory they so desperately wanted, or they would have gotten bored and left. There was no way the Imperial Fists could have won the Iron Cage but, for the same reason, there was no way for them to be beaten. No matter what else you hear, believe this: the Imperial Fists and Dorn were not broken that day. They were reborn, in the way only being submerged in liquid fire for minutes on end can give a man new life. They forgave themselves for the Heresy, and set their minds to new tasks. They readied themselves for new burdens.

 

For the shoulders of the Imperial Fists are broad, and the Imperium rests well upon them.

 

Once, I didn't care about Dorn and his Legion. I thought they were dull and boring. But, now, they're my favorite Primarch and Legion. I hope, even if you don't agree, you will understand my reasons.

[A D-B]

 

 

My understanding of the Black Legion is that were the largest warband from the Sons of Horus to survive the HH and Abandon until Abandon amalgamated the rest of the remaining Sons of Horus.  That being said they are a traitor legion remnant and last time I check the traitors still came 2nd in the HH.

 

 

The Horus Heresy ? Ah, you mean the begining of the Long War ? Yeah, well, I guess I know who's really losing. Forever.

Hanging out in the warp mutating and popping back in to real space every so often to prove you were right before getting booted back isn't winning.  Given the myriad threats to humanity in 40K it is entirely possible that humanity will be wiped out long before the traitors win and the next  time the traitors pop by, they get gobbled up by the nids or turned in to green goop by the angry robots, squished under the jack boots of an ork or listen to some poetry from the eldar.

 

Similarly, the Imperium is the exact opposite of what the Emperor wanted, and is the most harsh, decadent, soulless, police state totalitarian regime imaginable, with its figurehead literally eating and digesting the population and stunting the species' evolution. No one "won" the Heresy. That's the point.

[LongGone]

What Darrell said. Times infinity.

[Wade Garrett]

Yes, Dorn was truly a kind and gentle brother who lacked words to express the tenderness in his heart.

 

Except finding words was never Rogal's problem. Words like "traitor", thrown at the Night Haunter just for having doubts. Like "coward", directed at Guilliman for the mortal sin of not breaking through two Traitor Legions and a sector wide Warpstorm to stand on Terra.

 

And the one time Perturabo's achievements are recognized by a brother Primarch, Dorn had no trouble finding words to undercut the Iron Lord.

 

It isn't "not being able to find the words" that repeatedly trips the Praetorian up, it's knowing when to shut up.

[Captain Semper]

The only problem with the Dorn is the yellow. A difficult color to get right and to standardize so you can build an army. Some show the skill required and return fantastic results. Others, like me, need to stay as far away from yellow as it is humanly possible! :D

 

And then of course is the Lion and the Glorious First! :P The most interesting story line in my view, including mystic past, dark secrets, alien influence, Chaos influence, nobility, unique hardware and a follow up story (in the 40k context) to die for! And loyalty is its own reward!

 

The First, the Honoured, the Sons of the Lion!!!

[Darrell]

Yes, Dorn was truly a kind and gentle brother who lacked words to express the tenderness in his heart.

 

Except finding words was never Rogal's problem. Words like "traitor", thrown at the Night Haunter just for having doubts. Like "coward", directed at Guilliman for the mortal sin of not breaking through two Traitor Legions and a sector wide Warpstorm to stand on Terra.

 

And the one time Perturabo's achievements are recognized by a brother Primarch, Dorn had no trouble finding words to undercut the Iron Lord.

 

It isn't "not being able to find the words" that repeatedly trips the Praetorian up, it's knowing when to shut up.

I wouldn't consider a few words spoken, even if they were said in malice, as being indicative of a problem and certainly not a problem of being unable to "shut up". Indicative of not being perfect, certainly, but Dorn never thought he was perfect. A good son, sure. A loving brother, because they all were. He had his faults, and allowing a rivalry to exist between himself and Perturabo was one of them. Dorn admitted it.

 

I'm thirty years old. I'm a lot younger than Dorn was, and I am not an amplified example of humanity with all its strengths and flaws cranked to 11. I have said a lot more than a handful of mean things, sometimes in anger and sometimes not, to people around me. Even people close to me. Even my family. I imagine most people, if not all people, must sadly bear that burden of things we wish we hadn't said.

 

When Dorn called Guilliman a coward, he was speaking in anger as an emotionally distraught son who had put his mortally wounded father to rest. Here was Guilliman, showing up after the traitors had been turned back, talking about what was best for the Imperium. What the Emperor would have wanted. But, he wasn't there. It was Dorn who had been with the Emperor building the defenses, it was Dorn who heard the Emperor's final command, it was Dorn who felt he had failed his father and the Imperium. He was still mourning when Guilliman was talking about splitting up the estate. Dorn took offense. Words were said on both sides. Dorn as a son without a father, as a soldier without a general. Guilliman as a man talking to his stubborn brother that was too busy blaming himself and lashing out at the world to take the long view.

 

I doubt Guilliman took it personally. Whether because it was better to keep Dorn on his side, or because he knew it was out of character for Rogal, he must have let it slide. I doubt there would be a statue of Dorn on Macragge if he was just some hateful, spiteful, vitriol-spewing troglodyte that threw false accusations like you and I breathe.

 

Guilliman couldn't have gotten to Terra; objectively, we know this. He was tricked, as were all the Legions (Even those who followed Horus). But, to understand Dorn, you have to see it from his perspective. Ultimately, that's what I wanted to do. Show Dorn's perspective. Granted, a significant amount is just my own impression. It's -my- idea of Rogal Dorn.

 

If someone else has an idea of Dorn that is different, that's cool. We all have our own perspectives, and none of them are wrong when discussing a fictional universe that is built on lies.

 

Honestly, I don't like when any of the Primarchs and Legions are put down. They're all interesting in their way, and all are fun to read about when written well. I could have written something similar for any of them, and any of us with a favorite could do it for at least one Primarch/Legion.

 

Dorn and the Imperial Fists just happen to be my favorite, and I like it less when they are accused of being "boring" or "jerks" without, seemingly, any thought given as to who they were. I hope, when the Imperial Fists get more solid Heresy coverage, that they will be, if not liked, then better understood.

[A D-B]

 

Honestly, I don't like when any of the Primarchs and Legions are put down. They're all interesting in their way, and all are fun to read about when written well.

 

This. Endlessly this. 

[Legatus]

 

Perturabo and the Iron Warriors were also known as siege specialists and urban combatants. They, too, willingly fed themselves into that vicious meatgrinder where others would not. But Perturabo did not do it for duty, or for loyalty; he did it searching for glory. He thought that taking the jobs no one else would do would bring him glory and favor.

 

Is that how the Horus Heresy books describe it? Quite different from how I remember it from the Index Astartes articles. According to them, the Iron Warriors were simply handed the crap jobs. Like mopping up after other Legions and building garrisons. Jobs that were tedious and would bring no glory whatsoever. Meanwhile, the Imperial Fists were regularly "held in strategic reserve" and brought in to deliver the final blow. Talk about being handed the glory on a platter.

 

 

 

Guilliman had convinced the High Lords that the Legions must be broken

 

Or maybe it was the High Lords who were affraid of the threat of a nother Space Marine rebellion and who tasked Guilliman with restructuring the Legions. We may never know. Although we do know that Guilliman was giving up more power than any other Primarch. And it is reasonable to assume that the human High Lords would have been more affraid of the Space Marine Legions than the Primarch commanding the strongest of them.

 

 

 

Guilliman had called them traitors.

 

Well, they were refusing to obey an Imperial decree, so that was really a somewhat factual statement. As opposed to calling those who did not make it to the Battle for Terra in time "cowards".

 

 

 

Guilliman, who had finally become the politician he yearned to be.

 

Guilliman, who after the new structure of the Imperium was set in place continued to lead his own single Chapter for the remainder of his life.

 

 

 

The Ultramarines didn't save them from anything. The Imperial Fists wanted to suffer, to bleed, to atone for their perceived failure, to die as their beloved Emperor had died.

 

Suicide is a way to escape service to the Emperor. It is neither honourable nor noble to throw away a life that should be dedicated to him. An Imperial Fist who survives can fight in another hundred battles, even if that means living with damaged pride. If duty is important for the Imperial Fists, then they would swallow that damned pride and continue to fight for mankind. The Ultramarines saved the Imperial Fists from abandoning the Emperor in pointless death. A fact once their heads had cleared up again the Imperial Fists should be thankful for the rest of their existence. They would not have fought for the Emperor for ten thousand years if they had ended that day in the Eternal Fortress.

[Tenebris]

Since I begun to be aware of the Warhammer 40k universe there was only one legion and only one primarch to whom I owe fealty, not only to their ideals but to their very character, the XV Legion, the Scholar Warriors, the Sorcerer Kings, the Philosophers, the Seekers of Truth and the Champions of the Mind, the Thousand Sons and their father Magnus the Red.

 

There is no greater betrayal than the betrayal of knowledge and my ire rises, be it in life or in fiction, when the scholar, the truly illuminated soul, suffers due to the ignorance of the barbarian, of the savage. I cannot begin to word my hatred for the Space Wolves, for their lack of vision, for their ignorance and savagery, that day on Prospero they not only broke the back of a legion of scholars, but they also extinguished the hope of humanity to enter in an age where learning and the gifts of the mind would propel the children of Adam and Eve into a golden age. 

 

It is vision that we speak of, the real and tangible prospect of an illuminated society that died that day. Prospero was a heaven, a place of serenity and order, an utopian society where the human mind was prized above gold and material things, where learning was given freely, where the true potential, the psychic potential of humanity was explored, experienced and carefully developed and where the warrior was a scholar even when he wore the crimson plate and fought the enemies of mankind.

 

Some say that it is faith that drives humanity, some say that it is might, in truth the sole power of the universe is knowledge, knowledge in all its myriad of forms and with the death of Prospero and the betrayal of the Thousand Sons, humanity decided that it is far better to live in the sheltered dark confines of ignorance than brave the light of knowledge. For ignorance, ignorance is the easier path. 

 

So death to the Space Wolves, death to the Father who betrayed his sons and glory to Magnus and his Thousand Sons. 

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

"So death to the space wolves.........."

 

A little harsh don't ya think? They were only little bombs. And it wasn't like they burned the Entire world. Just parts, you know the shiny new bits.

[Perrin]

Since I begun to be aware of the Warhammer 40k universe there was only one legion and only one primarch to whom I owe fealty, not only to their ideals but to their very character, the XV Legion, the Scholar Warriors, the Sorcerer Kings, the Philosophers, the Seekers of Truth and the Champions of the Mind, the Thousand Sons and their father Magnus the Red.

There is no greater betrayal than the betrayal of knowledge and my ire rises, be it in life or in fiction, when the scholar, the truly illuminated soul, suffers due to the ignorance of the barbarian, of the savage. I cannot begin to word my hatred for the Space Wolves, for their lack of vision, for their ignorance and savagery, that day on Prospero they not only broke the back of a legion of scholars, but they also extinguished the hope of humanity to enter in an age where learning and the gifts of the mind would propel the children of Adam and Eve into a golden age.

It is vision that we speak of, the real and tangible prospect of an illuminated society that died that day. Prospero was a heaven, a place of serenity and order, an utopian society where the human mind was prized above gold and material things, where learning was given freely, where the true potential, the psychic potential of humanity was explored, experienced and carefully developed and where the warrior was a scholar even when he wore the crimson plate and fought the enemies of mankind.

Some say that it is faith that drives humanity, some say that it is might, in truth the sole power of the universe is knowledge, knowledge in all its myriad of forms and with the death of Prospero and the betrayal of the Thousand Sons, humanity decided that it is far better to live in the sheltered dark confines of ignorance than brave the light of knowledge. For ignorance, ignorance is the easier path.

So death to the Space Wolves, death to the Father who betrayed his sons and glory to Magnus and his Thousand Sons.

Very poetic, but It was Magnus' fault (and Horus to an extent). Magnus was naive and allowed his massive ego to blind him. He thought he knew better than the Emperor of mankind, not only the being that created him but the same being who had been guiding an entire race for 38 thousand years. Not mentioning the flesh change which would have destroyed the Legion long ago if Magnus hadn't made a deal with Tzeentch. Blame the Wolves all you want but the TS were on a path to ruin from the start.

After Magnus disobeys the Emperor's orders and uses his powers to contact him, thereby destroying the wards around the Imperial Dungeon and the human part of the Webway, flooding it with pure chaos and a never-ending tidal wave of daemons. After Magnus destroys the only way for Humanity to truly conquer the galaxy and basically cut themselves off from the warp and any need for it, travel-wise, the Emperor sends one of his most loyal sons, and one that is looked up to by many of the others, one that is trusted to obey orders, to collect Magnus and bring him to Terra to face punishment. Along the way Horus and Valdor manage to convince Russ that he should raise Prospero to the ground.

The Emperor has been planning humanity's ascendance for over 38,000 years. Why should the sheer arrogance of a Primarch be allowed to compromise that? The truth is that Magnus thought he knew better than the Emperor, and he was wrong.

They are a nice Legion to read about before they fell though, like the majority of ATS, and if they had stayed loyal and hadn't suffered the flesh change I may have been agreeing with you right now but alas

EDIT: Not saying they are better or worse than any other Legion btw. I mean come on, can you imagine full-strength non-chaos non-flesh change Thousand Sons vs any other Legion/Enemy? It would be pure carnage.

[Tenebris]

Killing legionnaires is one thing, but burning libraries full of knowledge, this is the work of either barbarians, or zealots. Both are guilty of blindness and there is no greater sin than that of a savage striking a learned person and destroying hundreds upon hundreds of years worth of knowledge.

 

The Thousand Sons were loyal, stayed loyal even when they were gunned down by the sons of Russ, they stayed loyal even when their people died and their world burned, but they understood the betrayal taking place when their libraries burned, and they stayed loyal no more. 

 

Magnus was the key to illumination, the living conduit for the Astronomican, the true light which would have guided humanity across the stars. The Webway was the Emperors project and should he be more open and sincere to his son, especially the only son that understood the workings of the mind and the Warp, than the destruction would have never happened. 

 

It is no mentor or guardian the one who shields his flock in ignorance and keeps his sons at arms length. The Emperor created Magnus, he infused his son with the power of the mind and the control over the Warp, and as such he should have used his thousands of years worth of knowledge to actually teach the very son most eager for knowledge and not try to shelter him in ignorance and chastise him when his very son proved to be the inquisitive mind that he was created with. 

 

And Russ, the blame is fully upon him, it is the province of the ignorant and the savage to think with your axe's edge instead with your brain. As I see it, the Wolf King was only too eager to play executioner and he is also guilty of betraying a brother's trust, for he ordered his sons to pry the secrets of the Thousand Sons under the false pretense of true friendship and brotherhood. 

 

One who slays a brother is guilty once, one who betrays and slays a brother is guilty twice, but one who betrays his brother, slays him and destroys his work so never again would a soul remember the greatness of the slain, is not only guilty thrice but it is a soul most foul. 

[Marshal Rohr]

I like the Imperial Fists and Rogal Dorn, although they haven't gotten much attention from the Heresy books. But, I like the idea of Dorn and his Legion. I like what I've read about them, and the image I have in my mind.

 

There was a post in the thread that said the Fists were boring, and Dorn was a [jerk]. It's not an uncommon sentiment and, while everyone is entitled to their reasons, I'd like to talk about mine. Been wanting to write something like this for a while, and this seems like a good excuse.

 

I guess you could say the Imperial Fists are boring. They're boring in the same way that a family man who works a 9-5 salary job every day is boring. He gets up early and goes to work like clockwork, and while he's there he works hard. A quiet worker. You don't hear much from him, unless it's related to something you need his help with or vice-versa. He puts in a lot of hours, he doesn't take many sick days or vacation days, and he never complains. He doesn't demand a raise, but he takes one when offered if he feels he earned it. He accepts gratitude and acknowledges it, but he does not expect it. He likes the work he does, he enjoys it, it gives him purpose. To his coworkers, he comes off as cold and distant. You never see him shooting the breeze at the water cooler, he's not on the company softball team, he doesn't come to the after-work parties. But he's not aloof, he doesn't think he's better than anyone. He's just busy. The boss gives him a lot of work to do, and he keeps at it until it's done. And he's doing work for others, too, because he has an unbreakable will to complete his projects. Where others throw up their hands in surrender, where others say it can't be done, he finds a way. It's not always a pretty solution, or an elegant one, but he will get it done because that's what he does.

 

When he goes home, he spends time with his family. He loves his sons. He works as hard with them as he does for his boss. He teaches them how to be good men, how to succeed in life, to never stop trying until you find a way to get it done. Never give in, never surrender, never stop fighting for what you believe in. As cold as he is at work, he opens up when he's with his sons. Not too much, because they crave an authority figure, but he cares deeply for them. He helps them how he can, imparts all his wisdom. He has high expectations of them, but he doesn't need to point out their failures. His sons know full well their weaknesses, and they are harder on themselves than he could ever be. They're just like him, in that way. Then he gets up the next morning, and does it all again.

 

To his coworkers, to his neighbors, to you he is boring and dull. To his boss, he's the man you can count on, rely on, depend upon to do any job you ask him. Even if he doesn't know how, he'll figure it out. To his sons, he's an inspiration, a loving father, an immovable foundation for their lives. To them, he's anything but boring.

 

It's unfortunate that the Imperial Fists are known only for their siege warfare, because they were good at so many other things. They were just as fierce in close combat, boarding actions, armor assaults and drop pod formations as anyone else. But not all combat can be glorious. War sometimes requires dirty, grueling work. The other Legions thought it beneath them, that it should be left to lesser beings. But Dorn would never ask someone to do something he, himself, would not. So when the siege work and grinding urban warfare came to him, as it inevitably did, he accepted it. Dorn was happy to do whatever his father, the Emperor, and the Imperium needed him to do. He was just happy to do his father's work, as were the Imperial Fists. They would have been content to mop floors and wash windows, if that's what was needed of them. They welcomed the burden of duty.

 

There was another Legion that was similar, of course. Perturabo and the Iron Warriors were also known as siege specialists and urban combatants. They, too, willingly fed themselves into that vicious meatgrinder where others would not. But Perturabo did not do it for duty, or for loyalty; he did it searching for glory. He thought that taking the jobs no one else would do would bring him glory and favor. But when it didn't come, his heart grew bitter. Unlike his brother, he expected gratitude. He felt ignored, cheated, denied, forgotten. This was why he and Dorn bickered. For while Dorn may not have often smiled, nor did he frown. He simply did what was asked, with his jaw set to the task, unable to smile and laugh in the most recent victory because his mind was already turned to the things that needed to be done and those things that could have been done better. Dorn thought his brother should have been happy to serve the Emperor's will, as was Dorn himself. He did not understand why Perturabo felt he needed more.

 

Dorn was many things, but a glib speaker was not one of them. He loved his brothers dearly, and the only thing he loved more than his brothers were the Emperor and the Imperium. Rogal was the sort of man that knows what he wants to say, but has difficulties expressing his thoughts the way he wants to. He always admired Horus and Sanguinius for their speaking ability and charisma. It was this inability to express himself, and a perspective that was stubbornly rooted in his own place, that caused friction amongst his fellow Primarchs. He never meant to quarrel with Perturabo, for there was a deep kinship there, but Dorn could not understand that, for some, duty was just not enough. When he said the Imperial Palace could withstand an Iron Warrior attack, he meant it as a general who was defending a structure he, himself, had built. Dorn would have greater insight than Perturabo into the layout, its strengths, its weaknesses. If Perturabo had built it, Dorn would have said he could not take it for the same reasons. But his brother had already taken insult, and it cut deeply that Dorn had inadvertently hurt his brother so.

 

He had a similar problem with Konrad. Dorn knew his brother had led a difficult life prior to being found by the Emperor, and he knew the Night Haunter was deeply troubled. Rogal did not pity him, because pity is reserved for those things seen as lesser than yourself and Dorn did not see himself as superior to anyone--especially not his brothers. But he did care for Konrad in his own way, and hoped his brother would find peace for his troubled mind. When Fulgrim shared Konrad's disturbing vision, he did not intend to fight with him. Dorn was wounded that Konrad would think so little of the Emperor, who was the only being Dorn loved more than his brothers (Konrad included). He only wanted to remind Konrad that the Emperor loved them, that He would never do such things. Dorn wanted to say he was sure Konrad's visions were horrifying, but that did not make them true and the Haunter should know the difference. But, Dorn could not express himself that way. He came across as accusatory, aggressive, hateful. It came as a complete shock when Konrad attacked him and, as with Perturabo, Dorn would look back at his words and actions with a heart full of regret. If only he had his brothers' way with words, he would have known the right thing to say.

 

But, Dorn was a soldier first, foremost and always. While his brothers pursued other things like art, governing, crafting, magic, religion, Dorn focused on being a warrior and a general. In his mind, that was what the Emperor needed them to be at that time. Books, politicking, forges and statues would not reconquer the galaxy. This was a sticking point between himself and Guilliman, though the two otherwise got along well. Guilliman liked to argue they could not be soldiers forever. When peace came, they would have to be leaders. What Dorn saw was his brother putting his cart before the horse. Peace had not yet been won. Humans still existed in darkness beyond the Imperium's light. Aliens continued to defy Mankind's destiny. There would come a time for Astartes to do other things, to be other things, but this was not that time. Now they needed to go forth and conquer, with minds free of other pursuits that would only cloud their judgement. It was a problem with Lorgar as well. Dorn understood Aurelian's love and devotion to the Emperor, for he shared it as deeply, but Lorgar's worship went contrary to their father's wishes. And Dorn put his father's wishes above everyone's. Including his brothers'. Including his own.

 

I've talked a lot about Dorn's good sides, but he wasn't perfect and he would have been the first to admit it. He had his pride, his honor, his narrow focus, his stubborn nature, his serious demeanor that put distance between him and his brothers. Rogal knew these things for he was more aware of his faults han anyone else. That was why he made the Pain Glove, to purge the weakness from him even when that weakness was imagined.

 

I hear a lot of people talk about Dorn being "emo", and it's difficult for people who haven't punished themselves to understand. Those with a history of self-harm, I think, can relate well to Dorn's mentality (I want to pause long enough to say you should not harm yourself. You are a way cool person. If you feel the need to hurt yourself, talk to someone about it. This is going to sound like glorifying the act, which I am, but in the context of understanding a fictional character. Don't self-harm, please). Pain can be a purifying thing, a tool to focus the mind, to strengthen the spirit and a way to ensure you won't make the same mistake again. Cultures today are filled with these ideas. We spank children because pain is the ultimate teacher. We say things like "No pain, no gain" and "Pain is the feeling of weakness leaving the body". Movies glorify characters who are shot, stabbed, break bones and dislocate joints yet grit their teeth and carry on to save the day. We brag about having a high pain tolerance and, like alcohol tolerance, there is only one way to build it. You must drink deep, and often.

 

Besides, how else could Dorn and his Fists punish themselves? They are Astartes, they own no possessions to take away. They have no privileges to revoke. You can't ground them from fighting, because that's the entire reason they were made. You can't kill them, because that's wasting the Emperor's resources. You can't physically wound them, because they must be in peak condition to wage war. But Dorn found a way to inflict pain without damage, because an Astartes or Primarch damaging their flesh is spitting in the face of the Emperor to whom their body belongs.

 

Think about this: Imperial Fists willingly go into the Pain Glove for every mistake, real or imagined, they make. The Pain Glove is said to feel like your entire body is submerged in liquid fire. And they do this to themselves, for minutes at a time, up to an hour. Can you imagine wearing napalm for an hour, willingly? Can you imagine doing it for a minute? Ten seconds? That's why the Imperial Fists are impossible to break, because there is no pain you can inflict upon them that is greater than that which they inflict upon themselves. As the Joker says in Dark Knight, "You have nothing to threaten me with."

 

One more thing I'd like to discuss, and then I'll be finished with this lengthy monologue.

 

The Iron Cage is something you hear a lot about, if you're a fan of Dorn or the Imperial Fists. It will inevitably be discussed. "Dorn was being an emo jerk", "The Ultramarines saved their butts", "The Iron Warriors tricked them because the center was a shooting gallery", "The Imperial Fists and Dorn would have been wiped out if Perturabo wasn't too busy gloating", "Dorn went crazy and forced his Legion into a meatgrinder they never recovered from".

 

I hope I've helped explain who Rogal Dorn was, because to understand why the Iron Cage happened you have to understand Dorn. It wasn't a pleasant time in his life. It was his absolute lowest point. Half his brothers had betrayed the Imperium, and it was Dorn that retrieved fallen Sanguinius, a brother he loved and admired, and the mortally wounded Emperor. His father, who he loved most. It was Dorn that heard his last words, that carried out his final wishes. Dorn, who loved the Emperor more than any other Primarch, had to carry the burden of his father's shattered body to the tomb of the Golden Throne. And with it, he knew, he was entombing his father's vision of the Imperium. It weighed heavily upon him, and Dorn blamed himself for it. Even though it wasn't his fault, even though there was nothing he could have done to prevent it, even though no one could have changed the outcome, he blamed himself. He took that burden upon himself, because he was used to carrying burdens. Dorn's shoulders were broad, and the Imperium rested well upon them. That raised eagle above his armor was far more than decoration; in his mind, he and his Legion shouldered the responsibility of fulfilling the Emperor's vision. He carried the Imperium on his shoulders, as did the Imperial Fists, and they could only blame themselves as they began to pick up the pieces.

 

Dorn knew what the Iron Cage was because, while he had faults, being stupid was not one of them. He knew it was a trap, that it was a battle that could not be won--it could only be endured. It was a Pain Glove for himself and the Fists. You don't go into the Glove to win. It's not something you can beat. It is an act of atonement, of purification.

 

It can only be endured.

 

Guilliman had convinced the High Lords that the Legions must be broken, that Chapters must be formed from their remains, but the Imperial Fists did not want to separate. It would mean leaving their father, who had been a constant presence in their lives. It would mean throwing the last handful of dirt upon the memory of the Great Crusade. Yet they were given no choice. The Navy had fired upon them. Guilliman had called them traitors. Guilliman, who did not bleed to defend the Palace. Guilliman, who did not carry the body of the Emperor from that cursed ship. Guilliman, who did not hear the last words of the Emperor and they said nothing of Chapters. Guilliman, who had finally become the politician he yearned to be.

 

With no other recourse, the Imperial Fists did the only thing they could. They would rather die as Legionnaires than live as something lesser, in their minds, than what the Emperor intended. They went to the Iron Cage without planning, for winning was never the goal of it. Sure, Dorn had said he would bring Perturabo to Terra in an iron cage, but he couldn't make his brothers understand the true reasons. He would have brought Perturabo back if events had transpired that way, but it wasn't why he went.

 

The Ultramarines didn't save them from anything. The Imperial Fists wanted to suffer, to bleed, to atone for their perceived failure, to die as their beloved Emperor had died. But, the Iron Warriors weren't up to the task. Whether out of fear of the price required, whether out of perverse satisfaction of watching the last battle of their hated Legion rivals (A hatred that was never reciprocated), they could not go through with it. They would have fled before being forced to spend the last of their lives, which would have robbed them of the glory they so desperately wanted, or they would have gotten bored and left. There was no way the Imperial Fists could have won the Iron Cage but, for the same reason, there was no way for them to be beaten. No matter what else you hear, believe this: the Imperial Fists and Dorn were not broken that day. They were reborn, in the way only being submerged in liquid fire for minutes on end can give a man new life. They forgave themselves for the Heresy, and set their minds to new tasks. They readied themselves for new burdens.

 

For the shoulders of the Imperial Fists are broad, and the Imperium rests well upon them.

 

Once, I didn't care about Dorn and his Legion. I thought they were dull and boring. But, now, they're my favorite Primarch and Legion. I hope, even if you don't agree, you will understand my reasons.

 

Summed up much better than I could ever attempt to. 

 

I formally nominate Darrell to be the Defender of Dorn in these topics. Would anyone care to second the motion :P ?

[Tenebris]

Well the post on Dorn is really well written, a Like from my part, but personally I am not a fan of quoting walls of text, even quotes of mine. 

[Marshal Rohr]

 

30K is cool because it's the last time anything majorly important happens for 10,000 years. Even after 10,000 years the story isn't compelling enough.

 

I mean really, the Horus Heresy has become the focal point of all human history.

 

In some ways, that's a natural belief from the game setting's massive focus on the Heresy, but one of the things that Ye Olde IP Gods have always made a compelling statement about is the notion that it's all cyclical. The Imperium is threatened by some galaxy-spanning civil conflict over and over and over again, like the Nova Terra Interrgnum or the Age of Apostasy, and while they lack the resonance of 25 years of mythic lore, they're still supposed to be incredibly major deals, almost on the Heresy's scale. Or in the case of the Legion Wars, fought literally within humanity's concept of Hell and the underworld, much bigger (just contained).

 

The idea that 40K is 10,000 years of basically nothing after the one major interesting event is sort of poison. Don't get me wrong, I'm not debating that some players will think (and like) that, and that we're all allowed to find our resonance where we choose, but as great and grand as the Horus Heresy was, the setting has immeasurably more to offer than that on scales that can even rival the Heresy in terms of conflict size and importance. I mean, most of the Imperium doesn't even know the Heresy happened. It's a focal point to us as readers. To the people of the setting, even those in the know, it's ancient near-meaningless history, like countless wars of the Ancient World are to us.

 

Of course, even in making this point, I still get flooded with squishy affection for the Heresy being the Famous Biggest and Bestest War. It is what it is.

 

 

>If Horus had stayed loyal humanity would've gone on to bigger and better things. The only thing that happened is humanity shot itself in the foot and has been slipping back into old night. It isn't like Abaddon toppling the Imperium will end the human race, because it won't and any arguments that it could are wishful thinking.

 

Well, that and Abaddon doesn't want the human race to end. He's out for himself, just as Lucifer was, believing he can offer a more 'human' and 'mortal' perspective than a distant, inhuman god in the Emperor. Abaddon doesn't want the Imperium to burn and die. He wants to kill the Emperor and restart, to give humanity the future he believes it was supposed to have.

 

He's doing it in a profoundly evil and deluded way, but... so is everyone in 40K. It's all shades of black, not even shades of grey. I recognise his motives and the fact he has a point without thinking it's the Best Way Ever.

 

 

At best humanity will just fragment again, and drive on cut off from each other.

 

In the same way that Rome collapsing wasn't the end of humanity on earth, the Imperium collapsing is just another part of cyclical history. The idea that chaos will consume everything in 40k is directly contradicted by the fact that it didn't consume all the Eldar and they are still around. Chaos isn't really the forces of hell, and Abaddon isn't really the antichrist. It may feel like that to people living in the Imperium, but from a macro scale and objective point of view is it really? Or is it just another force in the universe science is unable to explain fully?

 

And more realistically, what happens if chaos does consume all life in the galaxy? Is chaos universal or is it regionally located just to our galaxy? When chaos does consume all life, it dies, because it's source of energy is cut off, so it's true goal would be to keep humanity alive and in a constant state of warfare. Abaddons goal, frankly, is counter intuitive and at odds with chaos' primary motivation of self sustainment. Why would chaos not actively try to stop Abaddon from cutting off the taps that keep them alive?

 

The argument for chaos being a real villain collapses under its own confliction. Even the argument that it is a force of nature fails, because the idea of toppling the Imperium would be maladaptive behavior on their part and ultimately rob them of their power.

 

Exactly. But that's been covered: Abaddon isn't doing it for the Chaos Gods. He recognises their use to him and his forces, but he actively resists them. They're the ones that come to him and Mark him and beg him and try to impress him. They don't want him to succeed without them. http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/lets-talk-about-abaddon/

 

 

 

Im responding to the bolded part, but I can't figure out how to just select that without messing up the quote box, so bear with me please.

 

Ultimately, what I am trying to get across, is that in terms of significance to human history, the Horus Heresy was the crest of the wave that had come out of old night, and anything following is the downward slope back into the trough, with the very bottom point being the 13th Black Crusade. After Abaddon overthrows the Imperium or whatever it is he wants to do, ever step after that will be slowly moving back up to a new crest. 

 

Sure those big events and civil wars in the Imperium's history were significant in the way that people living on an island sinking into the ocean year by year are concerned about their shrinking real estate, but they weren't as significant as the Horus Heresy (which to the islanders would be akin to global warming). 

 

So while some event may have been bigger than the Horus Heresy or more destructive, the only reason it happens is because of the Horus Heresy. The Great Depression, Dot com Bust, and 2008 Financial Crisis were all pretty freaking huge deals, but you can trace the reasons for all of them back to a point in history in which the precedent for moral hazard and over leveraging came from.

 

If that makes any sense what so ever. 

[AlabasterKnight]

 

*dialogue redacted for redundancy and kindness to board space*

 

The people in the setting don't know they're doomed. That's the key, here. 

 

But the fact the Imperium is raging against the dying of the light and is ultimately screwed isn't exactly me bouncing in with a slice of new lore. It's Warhammer 40,000. The Emperor himself is on a life support machine powered by human souls, on a scale enough that humanity is stunting its own evolution, and that machine is failing. Look at the cover of Rogue Trader where you have a last stand of Space Marines back to back against overwhelming foes. Who looks at this setting and thinks it's going to end well?

 

ADB, again with all due respect to your authoring pen, the people in the setting currently may not know they're doomed, but I am certain the more informed a person gets, the more in touch with that reality they would become. You guys are writing yourselves into a corner by not leaving lighter edges.

 

This fiction feeds a consumer base of players. You are correct, this is Warhammer 40,000 we're talking about. It is a box that at the moment is so tall and so wide, and contains some definite concepts. And maybe the shape of that box is the real question. Plenty of possibilities out there. Fill the box with black ooze and blood and gore. But throw a lock on it when that's all that's in the box and you lose audience.

 

Thanks for responding.

[Wade Garrett]

I'm not saying that Dorn couldn't go three seconds without insulting anyone. That would be silly and wrong.

 

What I'm saying is that his people skills were on the level of being bludgeoned over the head with a sledgehammer, and we have at least three examples of times when he would have been better served by silence than by firing off both barrels of "The Truth According to Dorn".

 

And I'm not saying Rogal drove Konrad and Pert to Chaos either,

merely that he always spoke his mind. Always.

 

How can I put this...VII Primarch seems to be the kind of guy who, when his wife/girlfriend asks "Does this dress make me look fat?" replies, with no hesitation whatsoever, "Yes, and the color makes you look jaundiced."

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

*dialogue redacted for redundancy and kindness to board space*

The people in the setting don't know they're doomed. That's the key, here.

 

But the fact the Imperium is raging against the dying of the light and is ultimately screwed isn't exactly me bouncing in with a slice of new lore. It's Warhammer 40,000. The Emperor himself is on a life support machine powered by human souls, on a scale enough that humanity is stunting its own evolution, and that machine is failing. Look at the cover of Rogue Trader where you have a last stand of Space Marines back to back against overwhelming foes. Who looks at this setting and thinks it's going to end well?

ADB, again with all due respect to your authoring pen, the people in the setting currently may not know they're doomed, but I am certain the more informed a person gets, the more in touch with that reality they would become. You guys are writing yourselves into a corner by not leaving lighter edges.

 

This fiction feeds a consumer base of players. You are correct, this is Warhammer 40,000 we're talking about. It is a box that at the moment is so tall and so wide, and contains some definite concepts. And maybe the shape of that box is the real question. Plenty of possibilities out there. Fill the box with black ooze and blood and gore. But throw a lock on it when that's all that's in the box and you lose audience.

 

Thanks for responding.

I don't know, I came to the setting with the impression "everybody loses" and I was happy with that. It might hurt the audience, but I doubt you'd lose it.

[AlabasterKnight]

I'm not saying that Dorn couldn't go three seconds without insulting anyone. That would be silly and wrong.

 

What I'm saying is that his people skills were on the level of being bludgeoned over the head with a sledgehammer, and we have at least three examples of times when he would have been better served by silence than by firing off both barrels of "The Truth According to Dorn".

 

And I'm not saying Rogal drove Konrad and Pert to Chaos either,

merely that he always spoke his mind. Always.

 

How can I put this...VII Primarch seems to be the kind of guy who, when his wife/girlfriend asks "Does this dress make me look fat?" replies, with no hesitation whatsoever, "Yes, and the color makes you look jaundiced."

When you put it that way.... wait you're a Word Bearer....

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

Honestly, I don't like when any of the Primarchs and Legions are put down. They're all interesting in their way, and all are fun to read about when written well.

 

This is so true. I'm slowly making my way through the HH novels, and at first I was only going to read those with a significant mention of the Iron Hands or Ferrus. After reading The First Heretic & A Thousand Sons I'm no longer doing this - seeing a Legion I've overlook / I'm not that interested in potrayed in a different manner, with engaging characters and interesting themes means I'm now specifically selecting books with Legions I haven't read about before (admittedly I'm also a bit wary of big mentions of the IHs after Fulgrim - the amount the 10th got slapped / Ferrus looked like an idiot in that book was a bit offputting - even though I know its mostly because of Fulgrim's twisted perspective on the situation).

 

That said, I'd devour a book focusing on the 10th / their Primarch - its just they haven't really done anything that significant that we know about during the Heresy / Great Crusade apart from the Massacre, and we all know how that ended.

[AlabasterKnight]

I don't know, I came to the setting with the impression "everybody loses" and I was happy with that. It might hurt the audience, but I doubt you'd lose it.

 

When we're talking about guys like me who are in business to promote the hobby and I have to look a mom in the face and only mention the miniscule percentage of heroism and how (gesture to the shelf of product) these guys "fight for humanity!" and explain off the daemonic attributes of half the other product (- and then beyond that overcoming sticker shock!), could you then see the point? I constantly use the you can do anything you want meme and put my armies up as examples, but the lore doesn't support a parent friendly expenditure...