The best legion (please don't hurt me...) *Hides*

[Wade Garrett]

Counterpoint:

 

40k lore is nowhere near as misery inducing to a young child as "Ole Yeller" or "Where the Red Fern Grows".

[AlabasterKnight]

Counterpoint:

 

40k lore is nowhere near as misery inducing to a young child as "Ole Yeller" or "Where the Red Fern Grows".

lol - point taken. :)

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

I don't know, I came to the setting with the impression "everybody loses" and I was happy with that. It might hurt the audience, but I doubt you'd lose it.

 

When we're talking about guys like me who are in business to promote the hobby and I have to look a mom in the face and only mention the miniscule percentage of heroism and how (gesture to the shelf of product) these guys "fight for humanity!" and explain off the daemonic attributes of half the other product (- and then beyond that overcoming sticker shock!), could you then see the point? I constantly use the you can do anything you want meme and put my armies up as examples, but the lore doesn't support a parent friendly expenditure...

 

 

Not really. But I grew up watching Highlander, Terminator, Saving Private Ryan and movies that normally a parent wouldn't find "child friendly".

 

EDIT: Although on the inverse I'm someone who finds it weird when I see parents allow or encourage underage drinking.

[Marshal Rohr]

I'm not saying that Dorn couldn't go three seconds without insulting anyone. That would be silly and wrong.

 

What I'm saying is that his people skills were on the level of being bludgeoned over the head with a sledgehammer, and we have at least three examples of times when he would have been better served by silence than by firing off both barrels of "The Truth According to Dorn".

 

And I'm not saying Rogal drove Konrad and Pert to Chaos either,

merely that he always spoke his mind. Always.

 

How can I put this...VII Primarch seems to be the kind of guy who, when his wife/girlfriend asks "Does this dress make me look fat?" replies, with no hesitation whatsoever, "Yes, and the color makes you look jaundiced."

 

I think you're argument isnt in the context of those situations. A man saying to his wife 'Yes you look fat and jaundiced' is obviously an example of something most rational men would agree to be a case in which telling the absolute truth is social suicide. But this wasn't Fulgrim asking if his armor made him look effete, or if Perturabo's armor makes him seem dull. The situations in which Dorn spoke his unrestrained opinions were more like your brother asking you if he drinks too much or if they were as good at their job as he was.

 

For example, if my brother tells me that my other brother came to him worried that our father's was secretly planning to kill him, I think it is understandable that someone torn between love and loyalty to a brother and love and loyalty to a father would speak his mind truthfully, since the gravity of the situation is a bit more than 'does this dress make me look fat'.

 

In the second example, if another brother asks me if I am a better architect, a profession at which myself and my other brother are both members of, and I genuinely believe my work is more functional than my brothers (with no disrespect intended), I would say yes. Is it not quite tactful? No, it isn't at all. Also, the context in which the question was asked isn't really well developed. Was Horus saying it teasingly, and trying to create a little playful drama in an effort to get two of the most humorless Primarchs to loosen up? Was he asking it in a strategic briefing in which Horus and the Emperor were determining who would fortify the palace? Was it a private occasion between brothers or in front of their legionaries? The passage is nice to give the two Primarch's mutual animosity some simple history, but it lacks enough meat to pass judgment on either Primarchs character. It's like saying watching two people quarrel in a bar without knowing the full extent of their history means one of them is socially inept and the other has anger issues. No casual observer (i.e. the reader) can make an in depth assessment of the relationship between Dorn and Perturabo until someone writes about it.

 

Granted, if Graham McNeill writes about it, you can bet that Dorn was a raging :cuss the whole time and bullied Perturabo constantly, belittling him and mocking his legion. 

[depthcharge12]

 

I like the Imperial Fists and Rogal Dorn, although they haven't gotten much attention from the Heresy books. But, I like the idea of Dorn and his Legion. I like what I've read about them, and the image I have in my mind.

 

There was a post in the thread that said the Fists were boring, and Dorn was a [jerk]. It's not an uncommon sentiment and, while everyone is entitled to their reasons, I'd like to talk about mine. Been wanting to write something like this for a while, and this seems like a good excuse.

 

I guess you could say the Imperial Fists are boring. They're boring in the same way that a family man who works a 9-5 salary job every day is boring. He gets up early and goes to work like clockwork, and while he's there he works hard. A quiet worker. You don't hear much from him, unless it's related to something you need his help with or vice-versa. He puts in a lot of hours, he doesn't take many sick days or vacation days, and he never complains. He doesn't demand a raise, but he takes one when offered if he feels he earned it. He accepts gratitude and acknowledges it, but he does not expect it. He likes the work he does, he enjoys it, it gives him purpose. To his coworkers, he comes off as cold and distant. You never see him shooting the breeze at the water cooler, he's not on the company softball team, he doesn't come to the after-work parties. But he's not aloof, he doesn't think he's better than anyone. He's just busy. The boss gives him a lot of work to do, and he keeps at it until it's done. And he's doing work for others, too, because he has an unbreakable will to complete his projects. Where others throw up their hands in surrender, where others say it can't be done, he finds a way. It's not always a pretty solution, or an elegant one, but he will get it done because that's what he does.

 

When he goes home, he spends time with his family. He loves his sons. He works as hard with them as he does for his boss. He teaches them how to be good men, how to succeed in life, to never stop trying until you find a way to get it done. Never give in, never surrender, never stop fighting for what you believe in. As cold as he is at work, he opens up when he's with his sons. Not too much, because they crave an authority figure, but he cares deeply for them. He helps them how he can, imparts all his wisdom. He has high expectations of them, but he doesn't need to point out their failures. His sons know full well their weaknesses, and they are harder on themselves than he could ever be. They're just like him, in that way. Then he gets up the next morning, and does it all again.

 

To his coworkers, to his neighbors, to you he is boring and dull. To his boss, he's the man you can count on, rely on, depend upon to do any job you ask him. Even if he doesn't know how, he'll figure it out. To his sons, he's an inspiration, a loving father, an immovable foundation for their lives. To them, he's anything but boring.

 

It's unfortunate that the Imperial Fists are known only for their siege warfare, because they were good at so many other things. They were just as fierce in close combat, boarding actions, armor assaults and drop pod formations as anyone else. But not all combat can be glorious. War sometimes requires dirty, grueling work. The other Legions thought it beneath them, that it should be left to lesser beings. But Dorn would never ask someone to do something he, himself, would not. So when the siege work and grinding urban warfare came to him, as it inevitably did, he accepted it. Dorn was happy to do whatever his father, the Emperor, and the Imperium needed him to do. He was just happy to do his father's work, as were the Imperial Fists. They would have been content to mop floors and wash windows, if that's what was needed of them. They welcomed the burden of duty.

 

There was another Legion that was similar, of course. Perturabo and the Iron Warriors were also known as siege specialists and urban combatants. They, too, willingly fed themselves into that vicious meatgrinder where others would not. But Perturabo did not do it for duty, or for loyalty; he did it searching for glory. He thought that taking the jobs no one else would do would bring him glory and favor. But when it didn't come, his heart grew bitter. Unlike his brother, he expected gratitude. He felt ignored, cheated, denied, forgotten. This was why he and Dorn bickered. For while Dorn may not have often smiled, nor did he frown. He simply did what was asked, with his jaw set to the task, unable to smile and laugh in the most recent victory because his mind was already turned to the things that needed to be done and those things that could have been done better. Dorn thought his brother should have been happy to serve the Emperor's will, as was Dorn himself. He did not understand why Perturabo felt he needed more.

 

Dorn was many things, but a glib speaker was not one of them. He loved his brothers dearly, and the only thing he loved more than his brothers were the Emperor and the Imperium. Rogal was the sort of man that knows what he wants to say, but has difficulties expressing his thoughts the way he wants to. He always admired Horus and Sanguinius for their speaking ability and charisma. It was this inability to express himself, and a perspective that was stubbornly rooted in his own place, that caused friction amongst his fellow Primarchs. He never meant to quarrel with Perturabo, for there was a deep kinship there, but Dorn could not understand that, for some, duty was just not enough. When he said the Imperial Palace could withstand an Iron Warrior attack, he meant it as a general who was defending a structure he, himself, had built. Dorn would have greater insight than Perturabo into the layout, its strengths, its weaknesses. If Perturabo had built it, Dorn would have said he could not take it for the same reasons. But his brother had already taken insult, and it cut deeply that Dorn had inadvertently hurt his brother so.

 

He had a similar problem with Konrad. Dorn knew his brother had led a difficult life prior to being found by the Emperor, and he knew the Night Haunter was deeply troubled. Rogal did not pity him, because pity is reserved for those things seen as lesser than yourself and Dorn did not see himself as superior to anyone--especially not his brothers. But he did care for Konrad in his own way, and hoped his brother would find peace for his troubled mind. When Fulgrim shared Konrad's disturbing vision, he did not intend to fight with him. Dorn was wounded that Konrad would think so little of the Emperor, who was the only being Dorn loved more than his brothers (Konrad included). He only wanted to remind Konrad that the Emperor loved them, that He would never do such things. Dorn wanted to say he was sure Konrad's visions were horrifying, but that did not make them true and the Haunter should know the difference. But, Dorn could not express himself that way. He came across as accusatory, aggressive, hateful. It came as a complete shock when Konrad attacked him and, as with Perturabo, Dorn would look back at his words and actions with a heart full of regret. If only he had his brothers' way with words, he would have known the right thing to say.

 

But, Dorn was a soldier first, foremost and always. While his brothers pursued other things like art, governing, crafting, magic, religion, Dorn focused on being a warrior and a general. In his mind, that was what the Emperor needed them to be at that time. Books, politicking, forges and statues would not reconquer the galaxy. This was a sticking point between himself and Guilliman, though the two otherwise got along well. Guilliman liked to argue they could not be soldiers forever. When peace came, they would have to be leaders. What Dorn saw was his brother putting his cart before the horse. Peace had not yet been won. Humans still existed in darkness beyond the Imperium's light. Aliens continued to defy Mankind's destiny. There would come a time for Astartes to do other things, to be other things, but this was not that time. Now they needed to go forth and conquer, with minds free of other pursuits that would only cloud their judgement. It was a problem with Lorgar as well. Dorn understood Aurelian's love and devotion to the Emperor, for he shared it as deeply, but Lorgar's worship went contrary to their father's wishes. And Dorn put his father's wishes above everyone's. Including his brothers'. Including his own.

 

I've talked a lot about Dorn's good sides, but he wasn't perfect and he would have been the first to admit it. He had his pride, his honor, his narrow focus, his stubborn nature, his serious demeanor that put distance between him and his brothers. Rogal knew these things for he was more aware of his faults han anyone else. That was why he made the Pain Glove, to purge the weakness from him even when that weakness was imagined.

 

I hear a lot of people talk about Dorn being "emo", and it's difficult for people who haven't punished themselves to understand. Those with a history of self-harm, I think, can relate well to Dorn's mentality (I want to pause long enough to say you should not harm yourself. You are a way cool person. If you feel the need to hurt yourself, talk to someone about it. This is going to sound like glorifying the act, which I am, but in the context of understanding a fictional character. Don't self-harm, please). Pain can be a purifying thing, a tool to focus the mind, to strengthen the spirit and a way to ensure you won't make the same mistake again. Cultures today are filled with these ideas. We spank children because pain is the ultimate teacher. We say things like "No pain, no gain" and "Pain is the feeling of weakness leaving the body". Movies glorify characters who are shot, stabbed, break bones and dislocate joints yet grit their teeth and carry on to save the day. We brag about having a high pain tolerance and, like alcohol tolerance, there is only one way to build it. You must drink deep, and often.

 

Besides, how else could Dorn and his Fists punish themselves? They are Astartes, they own no possessions to take away. They have no privileges to revoke. You can't ground them from fighting, because that's the entire reason they were made. You can't kill them, because that's wasting the Emperor's resources. You can't physically wound them, because they must be in peak condition to wage war. But Dorn found a way to inflict pain without damage, because an Astartes or Primarch damaging their flesh is spitting in the face of the Emperor to whom their body belongs.

 

Think about this: Imperial Fists willingly go into the Pain Glove for every mistake, real or imagined, they make. The Pain Glove is said to feel like your entire body is submerged in liquid fire. And they do this to themselves, for minutes at a time, up to an hour. Can you imagine wearing napalm for an hour, willingly? Can you imagine doing it for a minute? Ten seconds? That's why the Imperial Fists are impossible to break, because there is no pain you can inflict upon them that is greater than that which they inflict upon themselves. As the Joker says in Dark Knight, "You have nothing to threaten me with."

 

One more thing I'd like to discuss, and then I'll be finished with this lengthy monologue.

 

The Iron Cage is something you hear a lot about, if you're a fan of Dorn or the Imperial Fists. It will inevitably be discussed. "Dorn was being an emo jerk", "The Ultramarines saved their butts", "The Iron Warriors tricked them because the center was a shooting gallery", "The Imperial Fists and Dorn would have been wiped out if Perturabo wasn't too busy gloating", "Dorn went crazy and forced his Legion into a meatgrinder they never recovered from".

 

I hope I've helped explain who Rogal Dorn was, because to understand why the Iron Cage happened you have to understand Dorn. It wasn't a pleasant time in his life. It was his absolute lowest point. Half his brothers had betrayed the Imperium, and it was Dorn that retrieved fallen Sanguinius, a brother he loved and admired, and the mortally wounded Emperor. His father, who he loved most. It was Dorn that heard his last words, that carried out his final wishes. Dorn, who loved the Emperor more than any other Primarch, had to carry the burden of his father's shattered body to the tomb of the Golden Throne. And with it, he knew, he was entombing his father's vision of the Imperium. It weighed heavily upon him, and Dorn blamed himself for it. Even though it wasn't his fault, even though there was nothing he could have done to prevent it, even though no one could have changed the outcome, he blamed himself. He took that burden upon himself, because he was used to carrying burdens. Dorn's shoulders were broad, and the Imperium rested well upon them. That raised eagle above his armor was far more than decoration; in his mind, he and his Legion shouldered the responsibility of fulfilling the Emperor's vision. He carried the Imperium on his shoulders, as did the Imperial Fists, and they could only blame themselves as they began to pick up the pieces.

 

Dorn knew what the Iron Cage was because, while he had faults, being stupid was not one of them. He knew it was a trap, that it was a battle that could not be won--it could only be endured. It was a Pain Glove for himself and the Fists. You don't go into the Glove to win. It's not something you can beat. It is an act of atonement, of purification.

 

It can only be endured.

 

Guilliman had convinced the High Lords that the Legions must be broken, that Chapters must be formed from their remains, but the Imperial Fists did not want to separate. It would mean leaving their father, who had been a constant presence in their lives. It would mean throwing the last handful of dirt upon the memory of the Great Crusade. Yet they were given no choice. The Navy had fired upon them. Guilliman had called them traitors. Guilliman, who did not bleed to defend the Palace. Guilliman, who did not carry the body of the Emperor from that cursed ship. Guilliman, who did not hear the last words of the Emperor and they said nothing of Chapters. Guilliman, who had finally become the politician he yearned to be.

 

With no other recourse, the Imperial Fists did the only thing they could. They would rather die as Legionnaires than live as something lesser, in their minds, than what the Emperor intended. They went to the Iron Cage without planning, for winning was never the goal of it. Sure, Dorn had said he would bring Perturabo to Terra in an iron cage, but he couldn't make his brothers understand the true reasons. He would have brought Perturabo back if events had transpired that way, but it wasn't why he went.

 

The Ultramarines didn't save them from anything. The Imperial Fists wanted to suffer, to bleed, to atone for their perceived failure, to die as their beloved Emperor had died. But, the Iron Warriors weren't up to the task. Whether out of fear of the price required, whether out of perverse satisfaction of watching the last battle of their hated Legion rivals (A hatred that was never reciprocated), they could not go through with it. They would have fled before being forced to spend the last of their lives, which would have robbed them of the glory they so desperately wanted, or they would have gotten bored and left. There was no way the Imperial Fists could have won the Iron Cage but, for the same reason, there was no way for them to be beaten. No matter what else you hear, believe this: the Imperial Fists and Dorn were not broken that day. They were reborn, in the way only being submerged in liquid fire for minutes on end can give a man new life. They forgave themselves for the Heresy, and set their minds to new tasks. They readied themselves for new burdens.

 

For the shoulders of the Imperial Fists are broad, and the Imperium rests well upon them.

 

Once, I didn't care about Dorn and his Legion. I thought they were dull and boring. But, now, they're my favorite Primarch and Legion. I hope, even if you don't agree, you will understand my reasons.

 Summed up much better than I could ever attempt to.  I formally nominate Darrell to be the Defender of Dorn in these topics. Would anyone care to second the motion :P ?

 

 

Seconded. I'll drink to that. Anyone care to join?

[Blacksad]

in a few hours. still at work :(

[Wade Garrett]

IIRC; several Primarchs were together celebrating the end of a very difficult campaign, where Perturabo played a key role.

 

Horus proclaimed him the best siegemaster in the Imperium, and the somebody (Fulgrim? If it was, Index Astartes makes III Primarch out to be quite the little instigator, considering that he also started the trouble with Curze and Dorn) asked about defending the Palace.

 

Cue Dorn's response and Pert flipping his lid.

 

As for Dorn's tact or lack thereof, going by how he reacted to Sigismund bringing him his doubts in "Crimson Fist" and treated Garro and Iacton in "Flight of the Eisenstern" I don't think I am engaging in character assassination when I say Rogal was never in the running for the title of Mr. Sensitivity.

[Demus Ragnok]

IIRC; several Primarchs were together celebrating the end of a very difficult campaign, where Perturabo played a key role.

 

Horus proclaimed him the best siegemaster in the Imperium, and the somebody (Fulgrim? If it was, Index Astartes makes III Primarch out to be quite the little instigator, considering that he also started the trouble with Curze and Dorn) asked about defending the Palace.

 

Cue Dorn's response and Pert flipping his lid.

 

As for Dorn's tact or lack thereof, going by how he reacted to Sigismund bringing him his doubts in "Crimson Fist" and treated Garro and Iacton in "Flight of the Eisenstern" I don't think I am engaging in character assassination when I say Rogal was never in the running for the title of Mr. Sensitivity.

Yeah he back handed Garro across the room and was ready to execute the whole bunch at mention of treachery.

[Marshal Rohr]

Guys, also remember no author has seriously given any thought or effort into expanding Dorn the way they have other Primarchs. So far he is always a supporting character.

 

Jim Swallow, Gav Thorpe, and other have used Dorn as a shallow straight man who violently over reacts to the littlest thing. Thats poor writing and Dorn is an easy target for people to use as an :cuss. 

 

John French's Dorn was a supporting character to Sigismund, not the main character. We don't get to be inside Dorn's head for those exchanges, just how Sigismund saw what was happening. 

 

The only reasonable Dorn we have seen so far at all was written in the very first novel, when he has a candid moment with Loken.

 

As long as Gav, Graham, and others use Dorn as a straight man, he will always seem rigid. Unless John French or Abnett expand upon Dorn in future works and give us a decent look into his mind, he will always suffer on the page. Those other authors are not interested in making him a believable character, merely using him as an obstacle for whatever the protagonists are trying to achieve. Even Rob Sanders made Katafalque into a :cuss. No one is interested in fleshing them out or giving them depth, they just want to keep it shallow so they don't have to actually do anything in developing them.

 

A D-B, as always, is excluded from above critique. 

[AlabasterKnight]

I like the Imperial Fists and Rogal Dorn, although they haven't gotten much attention from the Heresy books. But, I like the idea of Dorn and his Legion. I like what I've read about them, and the image I have in my mind.

....EDITED OUT WALL OF TEXT...

(and edited before I read the requests below, great minds and all...)

Once, I didn't care about Dorn and his Legion. I thought they were dull and boring. But, now, they're my favorite Primarch and Legion. I hope, even if you don't agree, you will understand my reasons.

Summed up much better than I could ever attempt to. I formally nominate Darrell to be the Defender of Dorn in these topics. Would anyone care to second the motion ?

Seconded. I'll drink to that. Anyone care to join?

Thirded renewed.

[Conn Eremon]

Just a polite request, but can we all stop quoting the same large wall of text over and over again?

[Demus Ragnok]

Just a polite request, but can we all stop quoting the same large wall of text over and over again?

Seconded.

[AlabasterKnight]

Sorry went back to edit it out and got caught up in reading it again... what a good read.

[Wade Garrett]

Guys, also remember no author has seriously given any thought or effort into expanding Dorn the way they have other Primarchs. So far he is always a supporting character.

 

Jim Swallow, Gav Thorpe, and other have used Dorn as a shallow straight man who violently over reacts to the littlest thing. Thats poor writing and Dorn is an easy target for people to use as an :cuss.

 

John French's Dorn was a supporting character to Sigismund, not the main character. We don't get to be inside Dorn's head for those exchanges, just how Sigismund saw what was happening.

 

Err, what?

 

Some of the people in this thread seem to be arguing in favor of an "Ideal Dorn" as opposed to the fellow who fortified the palace in M31.

 

After all, Konrad Curze has never been a main character, merely a supporting role for Talos, Sevatar, Sahaal, and Vulkan.

 

Therefore, I shall state that he was in fact a gentle and misunderstood soul who loved small children and puppies and only wanted to be loved, and dismiss all evidence to the contrary with "bad writing" and "you don't know what Curze was thinking while he was (insert horrible atrocity)".

[Marshal Rohr]

Fair point, but has A D B done for Kurze what he did for Lorgar?

[Bored_Astartes]

Well, I hope A D B does some more with the Night Lords. *Starts Satanic Rituals*

[Augustus]

 

Granted, if Graham McNeill writes about it, you can bet that Dorn was a raging :cuss the whole time and bullied Perturabo constantly, belittling him and mocking his legion.

All while saying "neener neener, daddy likes me better...and you suck...neener. "

[Marshal Rohr]

Wade, would you accept Dorn's harshness if he was flogged for lying as he came up, or if Inwitan tradition made the way he acts acceptable? We know Angron and Kurze had rough upbringings. Would Dorn having been through something similar soften your stance?

 

We don't know enough about him to pass final judgment. Hopefully Extermination clears some of this up.

[Stormborn]

 

 

 

My understanding of the Black Legion is that were the largest warband from the Sons of Horus to survive the HH and Abandon until Abandon amalgamated the rest of the remaining Sons of Horus.  That being said they are a traitor legion remnant and last time I check the traitors still came 2nd in the HH.

 

 

The Horus Heresy ? Ah, you mean the begining of the Long War ? Yeah, well, I guess I know who's really losing. Forever.

Hanging out in the warp mutating and popping back in to real space every so often to prove you were right before getting booted back isn't winning.  Given the myriad threats to humanity in 40K it is entirely possible that humanity will be wiped out long before the traitors win and the next  time the traitors pop by, they get gobbled up by the nids or turned in to green goop by the angry robots, squished under the jack boots of an ork or listen to some poetry from the eldar.

 

Similarly, the Imperium is the exact opposite of what the Emperor wanted, and is the most harsh, decadent, soulless, police state totalitarian regime imaginable, with its figurehead literally eating and digesting the population and stunting the species' evolution. No one "won" the Heresy. That's the point.

 

That's true from a certain point of you.  Neither of the made up factions won the HH.  However, The fans of 40K did win with some awesome background (until in some respects GW decide to make the HH canon with rules and novels, ebooks, mp3s, graphic novels, limited editions, collectors editions, ultimate editions, table cloths, spice racks, wind chimes, key chains, ice lollies etc etc. Personally I always liked the HH as a mythical event that nobody knew a great deal about as it gives more possibilites to the people who spend their hard earned money on GW's products)

 

Getting back on topic in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1

 

 

The main problem with chosing a best legion from what has been made available so far is that some legions get massive coverage and some barely any so it is hard to compare them and some legions look awesome whillst others can be overlooked as the guys that were holding the coats whilst the hard lads get down to scrapping.  in the end it will all come down to justifying personal preference.  

 

Wait are we exterminating Dorn.  Excellent!  Only can we exterminate erebus, kor pheaeron, lorgar, fulgrim and lucius first?

[Wade Garrett]

Marshals:

 

I'm afraid we're talking past one another here. Yes, many of the Primarchs had things in their past that made them how they were.

 

But just because Angron's fury, Russ's savagery, Ferrus's hatred of weakness, Johnson's paranoia, et cetera ad infiniteum are understandable doesn't mean they're excusable.

 

Dorn is/was an uncompromising

harsh man. That doesn't mean he's an ogre.

 

Druss the Legend, Sir Galahad, Rorschach, Stannis Baratheon, Stonewall Jackson, and William Tecumseh Sherman might not be the guys you hang out with after work but in times of trial and hardship...

[Darrell]

Err, what?

 

Some of the people in this thread seem to be arguing in favor of an "Ideal Dorn" as opposed to the fellow who fortified the palace in M31.

 

After all, Konrad Curze has never been a main character, merely a supporting role for Talos, Sevatar, Sahaal, and Vulkan.

 

Therefore, I shall state that he was in fact a gentle and misunderstood soul who loved small children and puppies and only wanted to be loved, and dismiss all evidence to the contrary with "bad writing" and "you don't know what Curze was thinking while he was (insert horrible atrocity)".

I think your criticisms of Dorn are fair. He was blunt to a fault, he did lose his temper and say things he couldn't take back. There's a saying about "Beware the wrath of a patient man." He did have difficulties placing himself in the shoes of others and understanding their motivations. He tended to only see things from his perspective, and did not possess a keen sense of empathy. I imagine Dorn often thought "This is good enough for me, why isn't it good enough for you?" It's part of his stubborn nature that was his boon and his bane.

 

I never intended to portray him as a lover of kittens, puppies and babies. During his centuries of war, I'm sure he killed plenty of all of them. He was a supporter of a cruel dictatorship, that was capable of exterminating worlds because those who lived there were different. In another universe, all the Primarchs would be antagonists. To the species they wiped out, they WERE antagonists.

 

But, I still think he loved his family. Perhaps not in the way we love, but in his own fashion. Even amongst their Legions, the Primarchs were alone. They were forever set apart, and the only ones who truly understood them were their brothers. Even when they squabbled, they did it as peers, as family. There were only 18 Primarchs and one Emperor. That is a very small number of people who can really get you. I don't think they treated that sort of relationship lightly. Even the traitors wanted their brothers to join them in the righteous cause of rebelling against a tyrant.

 

I'll be the first to admit the Dorn I spoke of is my idea of him. There's not a lot for me to go on; quotes here and there, a few idle references, moments of anger. But, to me, those moments of anger exist to counter Dorn's typical behavior. None of us are at our best when we're furious, when we're hurt, when we're terrified. Rogal was no different. Without a lot of information, we're forced to read between lines and fill in the blanks ourselves. We won't really know Dorn until we get to see his thoughts, his motivations, not how others perceived them. I can't defend who Dorn was, because I can't honestly say who he was. I can only defend who I think he was, which I admit is a tenuous position at best. The equivalent of writing fan fiction, really.

 

I don't want the thread to be about whether a given Legion or Primarch was as cool as someone thinks. I only wanted to offer my opinion of my favorite Primarch and Legion, as anyone with a favorite does. I did it in the most long-winded way possible, as is my tendency, but there it is.

 

I want to reiterate to you, Wade, I think your criticism is valid. You are every bit as entitled to your thoughts of Dorn as I am, and I don't think either of us are wrong. We all have our druthers, and one of the great things about Warhammer 30/40k is there's room for all of them.

[spu00sed]

IIRC; several Primarchs were together celebrating the end of a very difficult campaign, where Perturabo played a key role.

Horus proclaimed him the best siegemaster in the Imperium, and the somebody (Fulgrim? If it was, Index Astartes makes III Primarch out to be quite the little instigator, considering that he also started the trouble with Curze and Dorn) asked about defending the Palace.

Cue Dorn's response and Pert flipping his lid.

As for Dorn's tact or lack thereof, going by how he reacted to Sigismund bringing him his doubts in "Crimson Fist" and treated Garro and Iacton in "Flight of the Eisenstern" I don't think I am engaging in character assassination when I say Rogal was never in the running for the title of Mr. Sensitivity.

I wonder if Fulgrim had a problem with Dorn

 

He sets perturbo against him in who is the better fort builder

 

He sets him up against night haunter, possibly knowing he will go off of the rails after hearing about night hunters visions. Though I have always believed that Fulgrim liked and card about night haunter (which is why I am saddened about their allied matrix result) and was actually concerned about his brother and his sanity. It is just a shame he told Dorn, rather than Magnus or Sanguinius.

[Kais Klip]

I don't think Fulgrim had a problem with anyone, most likely he held himself higher over most of them with his palatine aquila (scars). Sure, he was probably drowning out the constant voice of insecurity when compared against any of his brothers, but I think he deceived himself well enough with his own pride to not have a gnawing grudge against anyone in particular, or at least definitely not on the level of say Russ vs Lion.

 

Edit: made me go over the Ullanor exchange in Scars, and it seems to me Fulgrim has a habit of playing off his brothers against each other for his own entertainment. It fits with my image of him, he thinks of himself better and as a result goes out of his way to have solitary fun when around his brothers. Considering the tally of primarchs he racks up later on, I can't say I can look down on him for that.

[Tyrannicide]

Darrell, you're a wordsmith, sir. A damn good one. You've taken the loose ideas I've had on the edge of my mind, sewn them all together, and added a hell of a lot more depth while making a cohesive and intelligent summary of how you view Dorn; or shall I rephrase, how Dorn should be viewed.

 

Inspirational, man. Thank you for that. :tu:

[Marshal Rohr]

Marshals:

 

I'm afraid we're talking past one another here. Yes, many of the Primarchs had things in their past that made them how they were.

 

But just because Angron's fury, Russ's savagery, Ferrus's hatred of weakness, Johnson's paranoia, et cetera ad infiniteum are understandable doesn't mean they're excusable.

 

Dorn is/was an uncompromising

harsh man. That doesn't mean he's an ogre.

 

Druss the Legend, Sir Galahad, Rorschach, Stannis Baratheon, Stonewall Jackson, and William Tecumseh Sherman might not be the guys you hang out with after work but in times of trial and hardship...

 

I agree. Excusing it wasn't my intention. I think the way Dorn gets portrayed often makes him an easy target, because it doesn't seem like any worthwhile effort has been made to expand him as a character. 

 

Abnett made people like Horus, Guilliman, and Alpharius/Omegon. A D B made people LOVE Lorgar and Kurze (which by all rights was a monumental achievement). It just bothers me to no end that you don't see people praising Magnus, Fulgrim, Perturabo, Corax (Gav's version), or the Lion, given that they have all had extensive screen time in the series because the authors expand on them so poorly. Its a real disservice to these characters that they have been handled poorly, especially when we see exactly how compelling they can be in the right hands. 

 

People, and I'd imagine you are one of them, like Lorgar's reasoning for instigating the Heresy. People like Kurze's stark rational for being such a monster. Players enjoy Ferrus harsh personality (thanks to FW, not Graham McNeill). Players felt Guilliman's anger and betrayal at Calth. They were curious to the Lion's motives in UE. They get way Angron won't stand for tyranny.

 

People aren't really connected with Fulgrim's meteoric dissent from loyal son to heavy metal demon snake in the span of a year. People don't really feel Sanguinius' torment they way the do Kurze's. Readers lack the empathy for Magnus' effort prove sorcery can be useful. No one really understands the conflict between Perturabo's desire to build magnificence versus his own self-doubt and lack of purpose (granted the passage exploring that in AE was my favorite thing McNeill has done). 

 

I'd go so far as to posit that most of the more venomous arguments about the series happen because some people have to rationalize why the Lion was loyal but punched off Nemiel's head or the level of ability of Alpha Legionaries because Gav has them wearing other people's faces. Anytime two people rationalize something, the rationale is different. 

 

I hate it that Fulgrim isn't as fleshed out as Lorgar or Sanguinius (who's role in the Heresy is pretty freaking important) hasn't really stood out like Angron.