<ALL DATA REDACTED>

[Phoebus]

So, in the new Forgeworld Heresy book, Massacre, there is a timeline featuring the events leading up to the Isstvan V Dropsite Massacres.  It includes major events like the Council of Nikaea, as well as seemingly minor things like the Luna Wolves being renamed the Sons of Horus.

 

Two events, occurring 37 and 41 years before the Massacre, seem to point to the Missing Primarchs:  the events themselves are labeled as <ALL DATA REDACTED>, and the only listed participating Legion are the Space Wolves.

 

There is a third event listed, however, that also has the participating Legion's identity redacted.  This event occurs the same year as Isstvan V, and one year after Isstvan III and the Martian Civil War.  Events to cross off the list (since they are listed on said timeline):

• Not Horus' wounding on Davin
• Not the destruction of Olympia
• Not the burning of Prospero
• Not Signus
• Not Calth

So what could it be?

[Kol Saresk]

Well, the problem with the Space Wolves' events concerning the Missing Legions is that they happened after the Pilgrimage, which is currently an event that takes place after the Missing Legions have gone missing.

[Perrin]

I'm not going to add much because the whole timeline thing is so messy at the moment it confuses the frak out of me but some points:

- All Primarchs had been found when the Missing Legions went missing.

- The last Primarch Alpharius took command of his Legion around 40 years before the HH iirc? Although travelled with Horus for a while before taking command.

- I think the first two REDACTED instances are too early to be the Missing Primarchs.

- Could Night of the Wolf be one of them? I tend to forget the dates of things.

- Also could the 3rd be Magnus breaching the wards of the Imperial Dungeon? Considering it was a top-secret project there's a reason for it being redacted, as well as the TS as they're traitors, and knowing who was involved could lead people to find out what happened.

This is all guess work, as I said the whole timeline confuses me

[Demus Ragnok]

Here's conversation from a while back.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281918-some-things-ive-noticed-in-massacre/

[Kol Saresk]

I'm not going to add much because the whole timeline thing is so messy at the moment it confuses the frak out of me but some points:

- All Primarchs had been found when the Missing Legions went missing.

- The last Primarch Alpharius took command of his Legion around 40 years before the HH iirc? Although travelled with Horus for a while before taking command.

- I think the first two REDACTED instances are too early to be the Missing Primarchs.

- Could Night of the Wolf be one of them? I tend to forget the dates of things.

- Also could the 3rd be Magnus breaching the wards of the Imperial Dungeon? Considering it was a top-secret project there's a reason for it being redacted, as well as the TS as they're traitors, and knowing who was involved could lead people to find out what happened.

This is all guess work, as I said the whole timeline confuses me

Alpharius took command(note, this is not the date he was introduced to the Imperium, simply the date that he began directing the efforts of the Alpha Legion) twenty five years before Istvaan.

We know from The First Heretic(which is still current and not yet revised, if it ever will be) that the Lost Primarchs were lost before the Pilgrimage. The First Heretic places the Pilgrimage some forty years before the Heresy. Massacre narrows it down to forty-three IIRC. Ergo, we can surmise that since all of the Primarchs had met and that the Lost Primarchs were already Lost by the Pilgrimage, that these <ALL DATA REDACTED> events which happened after the Pilgrimage, do not concern the Lost Primarchs.

As for the last one, who knows? Maybe its the beginning of the Martian Civil War? Personally, I would want to keep information that the war is already in the Sol System from leaking out to the rest of the Loyalists. It would be a morale breaker.

EDIT: Nevermind. I see where the Martian Civil War is on the timeline. I would say Battle of Phall but that'd be weird if it took place before Istvaan V. Maybe it is the Outcast Dead? It wouldn't be Magnus breaking into the Throneroom since that took place before the Razing of Prospero, but it could be that shockwave, or however it was that event was explained.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

Im not sure that the primarchs met. I thought that corax never meet his missing brothers. I think it was a passing comment in deliverence lost where he was remanising.

that puts coraxs as a later foun primarch and as we know alpherous was th last they would never have met

[Phoebus]

First, let's look at our list:

 

 

• 964.M30 - The Razing of Monarchia
• 965.M30 - <ALL DATA REDACTED>
• 966.M30 - Cadia is entered into the Carta Imperialis
• 969.M30 - <ALL DATA REDACTED>
• 972.M30 - The Farinatus Extermination
• 981.M30 - Alpharius assume command of the XXth Legion
• 984.M39 - The Destruction of Nostramo
• 994.M30 - Isstvan system is brought to Compliance
• 000.M31 - The Triumph at Ullanor
• 000.M31 - The Chondax Campaign
• 001.M31 - The Council of Nikaea
• 002.M31 - The Kayvas Belt Expedition
• 003.M31 - The Luna Wolves are renamed the Sons of Horus
• 004.M31 - Horus falls on Davin
• 004.M31 - The Destruction of Olympia
• 004.M31 - The Space Wolves are unleashed on Prospero
• 005.M31 - The Blood Angels disappear en-route to Signus
• 005.M31 - The Dark Angels are dispatched to the Eastern Fringe
• 005.M31 - The Ultramarines begin mustering at Clath
• 005.M31 - The Betrayal at Isstvan III
• 005.M31 - The Martian Civil War Begins
• 006.M31 - <ALL DATA REDACTED>
• 006.M31 - The Dropsite Massacre

 

According to The First Heretic, the Razing of Monarchia occurs 43 years prior to the Dropsite Massacre. According to this list, though, the time difference is 42 years. Nor is this the only dating discrepancy. According to Legion, for instance, Horus' appointment as Warmaster occurs within two years of the "Heresy" (one must assume the events of Isstvan III). According to this list, though, the Betrayal at Isstvan III occurs five years after Ullanor.

Why do I bring the discrepancies between these dates up? Because tracking time and dates has never been an exact science in the universe of the Great Crusade, the Horus Heresy, Warhammer 40k, etc. Heck, we've known for years that the official dating system of the Administratum accepts errors ranging from 1 to more than 10 years, depending on the reporting source's location.

Given this, and given the fact that the novels that we draw dates from have been edited on at least one occasion to minimize contradictions, I don't think it's a stretch to assume that the timing of Lorgar's grief for his Missing Primarch brothers and that of his Pilgrimage, relative to the dates of the <ALL DATA REDACTED> events, might not necessarily be accurate. That is, we don't have the all-important "Check Number" for the two events in question, which would indicate to us how accurate their dates are. Remember, if you have a Check Number of 7 (making the accuracy of the date off by as little as 1 year or as many as 10 years, relative to Terra), there is no way to "round off" to the "most likely year" or what have you. If <ALL DATA REDACTED> occurred in a location that had no psychic contact with a Class 1-5 source, then the Imperium would input the date as what they reported - 965.M30 (for instance), but would understand that (depending on the source) the year could be off from a few months to more than a decade... in either direction!

With that context in mind, it's very difficult for me to accept that two events with deleted data (the signature for the Missing Primarchs), which also involve the Legion that has been so heavily hinted as having carried out Sanctions, somehow involve some other events. I know that, in my own way, I'm reaching here... but the proposed alternative sounds unnecessarily complex to me.

 

***

Where the original topic is concerned, the third <ALL DATA REDACTED> event is almost certainly not the Night of the Wolves. According to Betrayer, Angron was found around a century before the Heresy began. The same novel tells us that...

“Imperial records stated that two primarchs came to Angron, both claiming to have been sent by the Master of Mankind. The first arrived soon after Angron joined his Legion. The second wouldn’t come until almost a century later. By then, it would be too late.
Russ was the first. He came, and he brought his Wolves. Already, they called themselves the Emperor’s executioners.”

Excerpt From: Aaron Dembski-Bowden. “Betrayer.” iBooks.

Even given the flexibility of the Imperial Calendar, it's difficult to imagine this particular event occurring after Isstvan III. Furthermore, the tale told above qualifies that, while the Night of the Wolves itself was omitted, the campaign it occurred after was recorded - as the infamous Ghenna Scouring. Thus, even though the dates offered by Betrayer don't exactly match up with the time period alluded to in Forgeworld's Betrayal (which places Ghenna later into the Great Crusade), we can reasonably conclude that none of the <ALL DATA REDACTED> events are the Night of the Wolves.

[Don the Oiler]

It's either a placeholder for events the HH authors have planned and the FW designers have insight to, or for events NOONE has planned yet but which they are sure to come up with later.

Or simply yet another small mystery to spice up the fluff.

[Kol Saresk]

Im not sure that the primarchs met. I thought that corax never meet his missing brothers. I think it was a passing comment in deliverence lost where he was remanising.

that puts coraxs as a later foun primarch and as we know alpherous was th last they would never have met

No, apparently there is an "official but not officially printed" statement that all of the Primarchs met.

 

Maybe they're campaigns that involved the warp? I mean, we know the Imperium did everything it could to keep those quiet, even to the point that the Astartes of some Legions thought there was no life in the warp(Loken; Horus Rising; at least in original paperback) while others even had a rudimentary grasp of Chaos(Alpha Legion; Legion). So it is possible that maybe these two campaigns have to deal with that.

[Phoebus]

But why the Space Wolves specifically, then?  Combine that with the use of themes hitherto exclusively used for the Missing Primarchs, and you understand my frustration!  ;)

[Aegnor]

One thing that strikes me reading that timeline, and which has never made sense to me, is how long before Istvaan the destruction of Nostromo was. That should have been the breaking point between the Imperium and the Night Lords, after which they were considered renegades. Consider the events of the Dark King - Curze had tried to kill Dorn, killed many more loyal Astartes, and blown up a planet belonging to the Imperium. How was there not active efforts to hunt his legion down as renegades from that point onwards? Shouldn't the Space Wolves or Ultras have been scouring the galaxy looking for them?

 

Then we have the issue of them being included in the "loyalist" forces sent to Istvaan V. Given what had occurred, how did they even find them to give them the orders to go there? Let alone trust them to fight on the right side?

[Kol Saresk]

According to Massacre, the Night Lords volunteered for the assignment at Istvaan V. And honestly, they were bringing worlds to Imperial Compliance. Why would the Imperium want to stop that?

[Kol Saresk]

 

But why the Space Wolves specifically, then? Combine that with the use of themes hitherto exclusively used for the Missing Primarchs, and you understand my frustration! ;)

Yeah but in The First Heretic the Word Bearers said they had participated in the events concerning at least one of the Lost Legions.

[Phoebus]

Can you remind me of the quote or chapter in question?  :)

[Kol Saresk]

Sure. Chapter 17. Scene begins on page 292. Quote happens on page 295.

 

'The Eleventh Primarch sleeps within this pod - still innocent, still pure. I ache to end this now,' he confessed.

 

Malnor chuckled from behind the Chaplain. 'It would certainly save us all a lot of effort wouldn't it?'

 

Hobestly, I don't think it means that much. AD-B has, if I am not mistaken, on multiple occasions said that he at least tries to create conflict concerning either the "Executioners" title or the fate of the II and XI just to keep the mystery a mystery. After all, currently we have three(maybe four) "ideas" of what might have happened and two of them were popped off in the First Heretic as the next page someone suggests the "Ultramarines absorption theory".

[StruManChu]

I have a different, potentially less interesting theory...

 

We see in Prospero Burns that certain Space Wolves know how to use Marks of Aversion to injure/silence psykers. Obviously psychic powers require the use of the warp, so it's possible that the Space Wolves have gained this knowledge through the experience of fighting against psykers or warp users. It's not unreasonable to assume that this knowledge is shared throughout the Legion given the Space Wolves penchant for sagas extolling great victories, or they could simply be recalled by those who have survived since the campaign.

 

Given the relatively short length of time between the birth of Slaanesh and the beginning of the Great Crusade, worlds where the taint of Chaos existed in some strength would be unavoidable for the Legions. Battles and wars would be fought where the work of the powers of the Warp could not simply be explained away as Xenos trickery or technology.

 

I think that, potentially, the Emperor would have known this and, given how he kept the secrets of the Warp hidden from each of his sons, would have either tried to avoid these scenarios entirely somehow, or in the event of a full-blown Daemon World, he would need someone unrelentingly loyal and faithful, unclouded by ambition and dogmatically pure in pursuit of the ideals of the Imperial Truth. The first two Primarchs recovered by the Emperor were (IIRC) Horus and Russ. I think in Horus he had a son who looked at him and thought 'This is the man I will strive to become', and in Russ a son who thought 'There are none that can compare to this being', thus the title of 'Allfather'. Russ, then, is the logical choice.

 

So... Could it be that the Space Wolves were trusted by the Emperor to fight in campaigns where the forces of Chaos could not be avoided? Given Russ's early recovery and the relative proximity of Fenris to the Eye, I don't think it's too far fetched to be out of the question. Both of the two redacted events/campaigns are well before the Council of Nikaea, where we see the Mark of Aversion used against a psyker, and are shown to only involve the Space Wolves, rather than including another Legion.

 

Perhaps Prospero was not the first time that Space Wolves fought alongside the Sisters of Silence and the Custodes?

 

Just a thought. Not fantasically well formed, as it's now after midnight where I am, but you get the picture. 

[Kol Saresk]

Maybe. But that would require finding the taint of Chaos before engaging. Usually the taint isn't discovered until after First Contact though so it would require either some awesome reconnaissance or some sort of precog to determine where the taint of Chaos would be before it is found by whatever Expeition Fleet wonders upon it.

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

I'm not going to add much because the whole timeline thing is so messy at the moment it confuses the frak out of me but some points:

- All Primarchs had been found when the Missing Legions went missing.

- The last Primarch Alpharius took command of his Legion around 40 years before the HH iirc? Although travelled with Horus for a while before taking command.

- I think the first two REDACTED instances are too early to be the Missing Primarchs.

- Could Night of the Wolf be one of them? I tend to forget the dates of things.

- Also could the 3rd be Magnus breaching the wards of the Imperial Dungeon? Considering it was a top-secret project there's a reason for it being redacted, as well as the TS as they're traitors, and knowing who was involved could lead people to find out what happened.

This is all guess work, as I said the whole timeline confuses me

Was listening to Deliverance lost this morning and the two missing primarchs had already been dealt with when the Emperor came for Corax. The big E tells Corax he has 17 other brothers, and Corax is confused because he's the 19th. The Emperor tells him that what happened to his 2 other brothers is a story for another time.

So whatever happened to the missing Legions happened before Corax and Alpharius had been found.

[Perrin]

No it didn't. When the Emperor says that two are still to be found he is talking about the 2nd Missing Primarch, found after Corax, and Alpharius, found last.

 

See this thread: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/

[Kol Saresk]

I'm not going to add much because the whole timeline thing is so messy at the moment it confuses the frak out of me but some points:

- All Primarchs had been found when the Missing Legions went missing.

- The last Primarch Alpharius took command of his Legion around 40 years before the HH iirc? Although travelled with Horus for a while before taking command.

- I think the first two REDACTED instances are too early to be the Missing Primarchs.

- Could Night of the Wolf be one of them? I tend to forget the dates of things.

- Also could the 3rd be Magnus breaching the wards of the Imperial Dungeon? Considering it was a top-secret project there's a reason for it being redacted, as well as the TS as they're traitors, and knowing who was involved could lead people to find out what happened.

This is all guess work, as I said the whole timeline confuses me

Was listening to Deliverance lost this morning and the two missing primarchs had already been dealt with when the Emperor came for Corax. The big E tells Corax he has 17 other brothers, and Corax is confused because he's the 19th. The Emperor tells him that what happened to his 2 other brothers is a story for another time.

So whatever happened to the missing Legions happened before Corax and Alpharius had been found.

Hehe, this is awesome. BL needs to put this up on the blog or something.

Basically, according to Laurie Goulding, one of the editors of BL, and Gav Thorpe, the author of Deliverance Lost, that passage does not refer to the Lost Primarchs. Well, not entirely. The passage is supposed to give the impression that there were still two Primarchs to be found(one being a Lost Primarch an the other being Alpharius), not that the Lost Primarchs were Lost.

[Marshal Rohr]

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa

 

 

When the :cuss did BL decide when the Primarchs are found and why the :cuss is Leman Russ second? Seriously?

 

To hell with that. Makes zero sense whatsoever.

[Perrin]

The list was posted on the First Expedition forum by Laurie Goulding. It's been around for a while now, at least in forum time anyway, couple of months I think? Pretty sure the last few HH books have also been written with that timeline in mind.

 

Firstly, why does Russ being second offend you? Surely him being one of the older brothers makes sense with his attitude of self-appointed enforcer, looking after his younger brothers/pack.

 

Secondly, how does it make zero sense? It's not so much when they are found, just the order. For all we know 6 Primarchs could have been found within a year of each other, then a 3 decade gap before the next one. As far as I know, no dates have been given. There is also a difference between when the Primarch was found and when they took control over their Legion.

[Marshal Rohr]

Horus 
Leman Russ
[DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS]
Ferrus Manus
Fulgrim
Vulkan
Rogal Dorn
Roboute Guilliman
Magnus the Red
Sanguinius
Lion El'Jonson
Perturabo
Mortarion
Lorgar
Jaghatai Khan
Konrad Curze
Angron
Corax
[DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS]
Alpharius

 

Look at that list, and tell me what pops out as being really unusual from our cartographic understanding of the Universe? 

 

Ferrus Manus is 4th, but Medusa is the exact same distance from Terra as Caliban but the Lion is 11th. Angron was 16th, yet managed to corrupt his legion in a short amount of time? Guilliman is 8th but at the very edge of the Imperium? Why wouldn't Angron be closer to Guilliman, given that Nuceria is in Ultramar. Chemos and Chogoris are right next to each other on the map as well.

 

When you take FW map of the Imperium and overlay the 'warp route' map (which I have done to make sure Im not crazy), it makes no sense that some were found when they were, because the routes touch the planets. 

 

 

As for Russ being second, its ridiculous because it show Black Library's attempts to glorify the Space Wolves again, even though every time they do it, people lose their :cuss. It makes zero sense that the Space Wolves would've stayed so unchanged and feral. It doesn't mesh with Kasper Hawser's timeline, or many of the other timelines. Frankly, Im just tired of Black Library putting their efforts into a fan base (the space wolves) that doesn't appreciate it, picks fights with them about it, and all the while you have the Iron Hands, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and Death Guard with almost no depth to their stories, no explanation for their treason, or what the Iron Hands do besides die in large numbers. No depth to Sanguinius becoming a leader of the loyalist resistance. Nothing. Nada. 

 

But, we do get lots of tidbits about how freaking great the Space Wolves are and how important they are, given that so far their largest contribution to the setting is wearing pelts, carrying axes, and letting Magnus escape to join Horus. 

 

 

Ugh.

[Conn Eremon]

Edit: The list has been known for a year. It was first posted in January.

 

What does cartography have to do about it? It isn't like the Great Crusade was an expanding bubble that overlooked nothing as it went. You even saw the Warp routes map, so I am not sure why you think that would be the case. It has been mentioned repeatedly in the series that the Expedition Fleets focused on the more stable routes, ancient historical data, and whatever info is fed to them by the Rogue Traders and other scouting forces. There is no reason to think they should just know they passed such a world that is light years away from their path.

 

And I am really hoping this thread doen't get sucked down into another tiring argument between obnoxious fans with strong opinions on the Space Wolves.

[Marshal Rohr]

There is no way anyone can argue the space wolves need more expansion and glorification. Not when so many other legions have been neglected or poorly expanded on.