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[Conn Eremon]

I am sorry, but no. That is a terrible argument. Neglecting Legions is bad, no matter which Legion. Just because some are more neglected than others does not mean those that aren't should be.

[Marshal Rohr]

Im not saying they should be, Im saying that the authors should pump the breaks on having every single piece of work they put out have more information or space wolf characters. They are the only fan base that outright insults the HH author who come to explain his reasoning for the way they are portrayed. 

[Wade Garrett]

*Raises hand*

 

I said unkind things about Cyrene's resurrection in a thread ADB was posting in.

 

*puts cigarette in mouth and rides his motorcycle off into the sunset, a rebel without a clue*

[Marshal Rohr]

Do you even have a legion, Wade? :P Word Bearers, Night Lords, World Eaters, Iron Warriors. Damnit, man! Declare your allegiance! 

[Conn Eremon]

Then we are right back to that thing I hate most of all.

 

Just because of obnoxious fans, the actual Legion does not need to be punished for them.

 

Should we punish the Imperial Fists because of you? Should we take away the Phalanx because of M2 C? Wouldn't that sound ridiculous?

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

Gentlemen, play nicely and ontopic :)

[Marshal Rohr]

I have yet to say anything insulting to A D B.

[Conn Eremon]

I can't think of any other differences.

[Perrin]

What does Russ being found second have to do with GW glorifying the Wolves? Who cares if Russ was found second? Sanguinius was found 10th and he's the favoured son after Horus. The Lion was found 11th and he is seen as one of the best strategists among the Primarchs and the DA are seen as one of the greatest Legions.

 

Fenris being found so early makes no difference to how the Wolves would come out because it's a death world. No one from the Administratum is going to be arsed about developing a proper infrastructure on a death world or developing the natives into a proper civilisation when the same resources could be used developing a friendlier world. The population and their customs stay uncivilised and savage, hence so do the Wolves.

[Marshal Rohr]

It means that after the Luna Wolves the spaces wolves were with the Emperor the longest. It's setting up Russ to be something important and frankly I think that is crap. The space wolves are cool, don't get me wrong, I love em, but they aren't really 'instruments of the state' like some of the other legions. It doesn't feel right unless their role is clearly explained with none of the ambiguity that plagues BL explanations. Maybe when Book 4 comes out we can get a better picture, but right now it's playing favorites and that isn't fair to the rest of us who have been consistently left out of the main events. Someone needs to write about the Death Guard and Blood Angels. We need to know what the hell is going on with the Iron hands and Raven Guard, and not the nickel and dime crap we've been fed so far. John French's short was a move in the right direction, and now the Iron Hands role needs to be developed.

 

We don't need another novel about the Emperors Children being creepy, or mustache twirling traitors, sneaky alpha legion, or executioner space wolves arguing with Primarchs. We need to know why Mortarion became a traitor besides the basic idea or see Sanguinius leading the loyalists against Horus.

[Perrin]

No evidence to support that. Why would they have travelled with the Emperor after being found? Surely it makes more sense for the Emperor to send Russ on a different course with another Expeditionary Fleet while he (and possibly Horus) carries on to find the other Primarchs.

[Kol Saresk]

I think what Marshall is trying to point out with the Cartography was that if the Imperium took a "Go down the river and see where it comes out" approach with the warp routes(which seems the most plausible), then the when doesn't make sense on some unless they occasionally jumped out of the river halfway through on more than one occasion before jumping back in at a later date.

 

And he isn't saying "Dump the Wolves" either. Just as people are wondering if Forgeworld is going to "Move past the Sons of Horus" in terms of Legion-specific upgrades, he feels that BL should move past the Wolves. Not dump them, but stop focusing on them. I mean shoot, there is a serious chunk of Scars devoted to giving the Space Wolves screen time. But other than being used as a prop to show the White Scars are "rebels without a clue" and showing more of the Alpha Legion in something actually resembling a straight up battle(which was nice I admit), but there really doesn't seem to have been much of a point of them being in the story. They did nothing to move it forward and they didn't really add to it. References to the Wolves are popping up in the strangest of places. I think that is what Marshal is talking about. If one looks a certain way, it looks like a serious effort is being made to popularize the Wolves. The same character got two advent ebooks.

 

So instead of this perceived building up of the Wolves, Marshall is just saying that it'd be nice if say, the Death Guard got a more building out on why they turned Traitor when one of the things they hate are witches and yet the Traitors are chock full of them. The Iron Hands could use something like Scars or Betrayer since at the moment, they and the Salamanders are nothing more than just "We need guys to kill". Granted, small amount of effort has been put into Sharrowkyn's group and the Shattered Legion, but at the same time, Sharrowkyn's Iron Hands were able to hold a pitched battle against EC, IW and Eldar Wraith-statues, be described as taking a beating(IIRC) and still "not be diminished" when they aren't supposed to be that numerous to begin with.

 

I think that is all Marshal is trying to point out.

 

As for Russ' "brotherly attitude", it isn't that brotherly. Caring older brothers don't tell younger siblings to just do stuff because "Daddy said so". A caring older brother usually understands what the younger sibling is going through and if they don't, they try to understand before they help, whether it be the way Daddy wants them to or not. Sometimes your siblings are more important than what you were told to do.

 

If anything, that "I care enough to be willing to kill half your Legion on Daddy's suggestion(since we have no evidence of an actual order)" would make Russ look like the child who wants to be Daddy's favorite. The closest we get to a "caring scene" is when Russ tries to approach Prospero, fights nothing, gets a daemon on his ship, so he starts talking to Hawser in an attempt to reach Magnus. Insteead of say, using conventional voxes. But that daemon and no response on a communication line that doesn't even reach the person he thinks it does and he's listening to Hours( and possibly Valdor) on needing to kill Magnus and so he turns an entire world to ashes because he thought Daddy said so.

[Kol Saresk]

Perrin, on 09 Jan 2014 - 11:45, said:

No evidence to support that. Why would they have travelled with the Emperor after being found? Surely it makes more sense for the Emperor to send Russ on a different course with another Expeditionary Fleet while he (and possibly Horus) carries on to find the other Primarchs.

Actually, Horus says he spent quite a bit of time with the Emperor "being raised". And it wouldn't be the first time we have of Primarchs spending time before going on the Crusade. Ferrus conquered his homeworld but then stayed at Terra for an indefinite amount of time. Curze learned Imperial doctrine and tactica from Fulgrim before leading his Legion. And there are other examples.

 

But at the same time, according to Betrayal, the War Hounds were one of the Legions being built up by the Emperor personally. They had the first rumors of being his Executioners. Heck, their very name basically calls them his personal lap dogs. But then from BL we get this build up of "The Wolves were the Emperor's chosen pets". Kind of strange how that all works out since, if Russ was second and he was meant for some "executor" roll, then there would have been no need for building up the War Hounds so strong and using them as an executor force when Russ would have been there the whole time and we know the War Hounds were only dumped when Angron was found, which only would have happened within the last 100 years of the Crusade.

[Perrin]

I don't mean to be rude but I'm not going to address most of the stuff posted about the Wolves just now because it seems like every thread on every forum deviates into an argument about the Wolves.

 

What I will say is that I personally think M2 C has nothing to worry about with Russ being found second. Yes there are issues with this list, and there have been since it was first made public, but I sincerely doubt that evidence of Russ being found second is a precursor to a new "Wolves are the best" scenario.

 

One thing though, yes there is evidence that some Primarchs travelled with the Emperor for a while on Crusade, and some returned to Terra with him, but there is no evidence that Russ did. There are also no founding stories that mention Russ being with the Emperor when a Primarch was found. IIRC it is mentioned that when one of the Primarchs is found Magnus is with the Emperor, though I can't remember which Primarch it is unfortunately.

 

As for the "older brother" thing I mentioned, I didn't explain it properly. It was more of a beta thing. Russ and the SW have the whole pack thing going for them, and hell Russ was even raised by wolves. Horus, being the first found and travelling with the Emperor for so long had already assumed the Alpha role (in Russ' mind), so Russ, being found second, assumed the Beta role as an enforcer for the Alpha. This also works if you consider the Emperor to be the Alpha, but I think it works better if you picture the Primarchs as the pack and the Emperor as their handler/master, which he basically is. Just a theory of mine, not really based on any evidence.

[AlabasterKnight]

One thing that strikes me reading that timeline, and which has never made sense to me, is how long before Istvaan the destruction of Nostromo was. That should have been the breaking point between the Imperium and the Night Lords, after which they were considered renegades. Consider the events of the Dark King - Curze had tried to kill Dorn, killed many more loyal Astartes, and blown up a planet belonging to the Imperium. How was there not active efforts to hunt his legion down as renegades from that point onwards? Shouldn't the Space Wolves or Ultras have been scouring the galaxy looking for them?

 

Then we have the issue of them being included in the "loyalist" forces sent to Istvaan V. Given what had occurred, how did they even find them to give them the orders to go there? Let alone trust them to fight on the right side?

 

Stuff like this is what I love about trying to explain the gaps in 20+ years of author retconning.... GW/BL are coming dangerously close to ending up like comic book universes that get retconned poorly the first ime and need to be rebooted again and again...

[Kol Saresk]

Lorgar met Magnus with the Emperor, The First Heretic.

 

Fulgrim met Ferrus at Terra, Fulgrim.

 

Curze met Dorn, Fulgrim and Someone else(can't remember who) met Curze at Nostramo(Prince of Crows) before Curze spent an indefinite amount of time with Fulgrim(Night Lords IA of 3rd Edition).

 

That's all I remember off the top of my head.

 

Also, the lack of information on Russ' finding is the reason for concern on marshal's part I believe. They basically could have put Russ anywhere. But they chose second. Why? What's the motivating factor?

 

We know from Massacre, page 115 that the VI, XVIII and XX Legions had some very private time with the Emperor during and for sometime after their inception. So if Russ was second, how much time passed between their private time and Russ' finding? How much time between Russ and Horus?

 

Ultimately, it all leads back to "Why make Russ second?"

[Perrin]

It is a bit odd, but considering the scale of things that happen in 30k/40k assaulting another Primarch and destroying a planet aren't too bad. Russ has assaulted at least two brothers, and Night of the Wolf was an actual Legion v Legion skirmish.

 

Blowing up your own homeworld is a bit drastic but I think the fact it was very much a bad egg was common knowledge.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

One thing that strikes me reading that timeline, and which has never made sense to me, is how long before Istvaan the destruction of Nostromo was. That should have been the breaking point between the Imperium and the Night Lords, after which they were considered renegades. Consider the events of the Dark King - Curze had tried to kill Dorn, killed many more loyal Astartes, and blown up a planet belonging to the Imperium. How was there not active efforts to hunt his legion down as renegades from that point onwards? Shouldn't the Space Wolves or Ultras have been scouring the galaxy looking for them?

 

Then we have the issue of them being included in the "loyalist" forces sent to Istvaan V. Given what had occurred, how did they even find them to give them the orders to go there? Let alone trust them to fight on the right side?

 

Stuff like this is what I love about trying to explain the gaps in 20+ years of author retconning.... GW/BL are coming dangerously close to ending up like comic book universes that get retconned poorly the first ime and need to be rebooted again and again...

 

 

Actually. this was something funny. I remember when I came into the hobby back in 4th Edition how Nostramo seemed like such a close event to Istvaan. And yet, in the IA article, written back in 3rd Edition, following the destruction of Nostramo, the Night Lords are said to have traveled unimaginable distances, leaving few civilized worlds in their wake "without blemish". The impression is actually given of some serious travel time. Enough travel time to go "unimaginable distances" in the years the Crusade was winding down while coming across, and destroying, many worlds. I mean, could they really travel so far and do so much in only a few months during an age when travel time was usually months between planets when warp-jumping blind? After looking at that just yesterday, the twenty years between Nostramo and Istvaan V, actually makes sense.

 

EDIT: It is kind of funny how we allow our personal beliefs and impressions to color the facts of the fluff and then become surprised when our beliefs and impressions are different from the actual facts.

[No Foes Remain]

@Kol, I think Ferrus was also there when the Emperor found Cruze. I'll have to check Prince of Crows but I think it may have been Ferrus.

[Kol Saresk]

@Kol, I think Ferrus was also there when the Emperor found Cruze. I'll have to check Prince of Crows but I think it may have been Ferrus.

That might have been it. I remembered there was a third person, but I didn't remember who.

[AlabasterKnight]

It is kind of funny how we allow our personal beliefs and impressions to color the facts of the fluff and then become surprised when our beliefs and impressions are different from the actual facts.

 

Lots of interpretation and evolution to the creative process. As more creator's add their distinctive likeness to the collective, the sort and rank becomes less and less clear...

 

I am sure that none of us would be surprised to assume that all the founding legions were all the personal love children of certain of the original creators...

IE, the one that made up the Emperor's Children was no doubt the party animal in the bunch who thought it would be cool if his specialists had attack guitars...

I had a friend like that guy: Someone who like RPGs enough to play, but couldn't suspend their love for sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll enough to not have his D&D character be anything but a bard with an lightning charged magical sitar of endless drunken libations...

[Daddywarcrimes]

Im not saying they should be, Im saying that the authors should pump the breaks on having every single piece of work they put out have more information or space wolf characters. They are the only fan base that outright insults the HH author who come to explain his reasoning for the way they are portrayed. 

You should see the things said about James Swallow, or Gav's work on Deliverance Lost, or the pair of Dark Angel books. All have gotten their share of hate. While I love reading about the VIth Legion everywhere, I will agree that it feels like a lot of legions got neglected.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Im not saying they should be, Im saying that the authors should pump the breaks on having every single piece of work they put out have more information or space wolf characters. They are the only fan base that outright insults the HH author who come to explain his reasoning for the way they are portrayed.

You should see the things said about James Swallow, or Gav's work on Deliverance Lost, or the pair of Dark Angel books. All have gotten their share of hate. While I love reading about the VIth Legion everywhere, I will agree that it feels like a lot of legions got neglected.

 

 

Actually in the case of the Wolves, its that the fanbase loves the portrayal, but when a certain neighborhood author who actually cemented the Executioners aspect(although bringing its legitimacy into question just to create an air of mystery) says anything in support of the Wolves, the fanbase recoils and instead persecutes this said author. The Wolves Fanboys love the portrayal. They just don't love one of the people who have added to and reinforced said portrayal.

 

In the case of Fear to Tread, Deliverance Lost and the two DA books, its the fans didn't like the portrayal and thus didn't like the author.

[Aegnor]

Actually. this was something funny. I remember when I came into the hobby back in 4th Edition how Nostramo seemed like such a close event to Istvaan. And yet, in the IA article, written back in 3rd Edition, following the destruction of Nostramo, the Night Lords are said to have traveled unimaginable distances, leaving few civilized worlds in their wake "without blemish". The impression is actually given of some serious travel time. Enough travel time to go "unimaginable distances" in the years the Crusade was winding down while coming across, and destroying, many worlds. I mean, could they really travel so far and do so much in only a few months during an age when travel time was usually months between planets when warp-jumping blind? After looking at that just yesterday, the twenty years between Nostramo and Istvaan V, actually makes sense.

 

EDIT: It is kind of funny how we allow our personal beliefs and impressions to color the facts of the fluff and then become surprised when our beliefs and impressions are different from the actual facts.

Wasn't it the case that the Night Lords weren't originally at Isstvan V? If that was still the case, then it woukd all make perfect sense. They went renegade 20 years ago, went missing (in which time they wwre doing that travelling around), and then turned up at Horus' side once open rebellion had begun (but not with everyone assuming they were good guys).

[Aegnor]

It is a bit odd, but considering the scale of things that happen in 30k/40k assaulting another Primarch and destroying a planet aren't too bad. Russ has assaulted at least two brothers, and Night of the Wolf was an actual Legion v Legion skirmish.

 

Blowing up your own homeworld is a bit drastic but I think the fact it was very much a bad egg was common knowledge.

But Horus virus bombing Isstvan III was a shocking enough event to mark the point at which Horus was recognized as a traitor. I know there is a difference in terms of the presence of loyal troops on the ground when the virus bombing happened, but the emphasis always seems to be on the fact of him virus bombing a populated world. That world was in rebellion, whereas Nostromo was loyal. There should have been no coming back for Curze from that - especially from Dorn, who had more reason to hate and mistrust him than anyone else.