Bad luck streak with Terminator saves and random rant

[Barnie25]

So after playing Eldar far a month I decided to run the double LR list against an Grey Knights/ Blood Angels opponent. It was his 12 models against my 21 some what models. After putting two wounds on his Dreadknight in turn one, I wiped his Dante, Sanginary Guard unit and Dreadknight in turn two.

 

And then the fun started:

 

According to my opponent were the Blood Talons on his Furioso Dreadnought s10 ap 2 with getting a second attack for every hit. I read the rules and concluded that they counted as Lightning Claws and therefore would be s6 ap3, which greatly matters as I played Deathwing. But after reading the rules my opponent and the guys at the gaming club convinced me that it were this way as the BRB states that claws also are counts as Dreadnought CCWS. We were in a basement with no internet connection or ability to acces it for that time. So we proceeded with the Dread having this stateline. I wasn't convinced but had no choice.

 

The Dread then put 15 wounds on my Terminator Squad which I all promptely failed or at least failed to save enough. The following turn he assaulted my Land Raider and put 10 wounds on him. All of these wounds were to be believed as s10 AP2. This really had cost me the game. In the following combat I scored 7 one's on a 12 dice roll, so that also wasn't the greatest.

 

 

overal I had really bad luck and my opponent didn't knew his rules as they should have. This really makes me lose interest in Warhammer as there are just so many rules disputes and there is so much clunkiness. As a competitve Magicers it's hard to grasp that a company that makes so much money can produce so bad written rules. After our match I was really down and wanted to stomp my army even though it is the first army I've finished painting ever (I've been playing for over 3 months now but I rather intense at that).

 

 

How do you guys deal with these sorts of situations bare in mind that the guy is a buddy of mine and there is no bad blood between the two of us. I think this is partly attributual to GW. Have you ever been in situations like this and how did you deal with that. 

[Brother dean]

Reading the rules they should have been S6. Thus couldnt have killed your LR.

[Raztalin]

I think you have been done there...checking the BA dex:

 

"Blood Talon

With the unstoppable mass of a Dreadnought behind it, a single swipe from a blood talon can sweep aside a half dozen enemies - more, if the Dreadnought is w ielding two such weapons. Blood talons follow the same rules as lightning claws. "

 

It then goes on to talk about how it generates extra attacks if it scores an unsaved wound etc.

 

So I would agree they are the strength of the dread, and ap3...

 

Have I interpreted that right!? Did he have his dex handy to look at when you were discussing this?

[Raztalin]

They are apparently S10 AP2  However I can only see that he gets three attacks plus one for charging...  Unless you were facing five of them he shouldnt have hit quite that many wounds in one turn.

It scores extra attacks for every unsaved wound it produces, these can intern cause more attacks if they inflict extra unsaved wounds too.

[Mr.selfdestruct]

No, the BA codex specifically says that they have the same profile as lightning claws.  Therefore, STR as user, AP 3, re-roll failed wounds.  The Blood Talons are a fantastic squad killer, but you have to pick the right targets!  Terminators are a no-no.

[Brother dean]

 

They are apparently S10 AP2  However I can only see that he gets three attacks plus one for charging...  Unless you were facing five of them he shouldnt have hit quite that many wounds in one turn.

It scores extra attacks for every unsaved wound it produces, these can intern cause more attacks if they inflict extra unsaved wounds too.

I found the rule and have redacted my response...

 

To the OP:  You got had.   Sorry.

[Barnie25]

The confusion is the in the BRB that states that Dreadnought CCWS may be claws and are then s10 ap2, everyone asumed since the BRB is newer than the BA codex that it was an exception. Next time I won't let this happen. I probably said five times over the course of the game that this was wrong and it can't be this strong. Guess I was right

I think you have been done there...checking the BA dex:

"Blood Talon
With the unstoppable mass of a Dreadnought behind it, a single swipe from a blood talon can sweep aside a half dozen enemies - more, if the Dreadnought is w ielding two such weapons. Blood talons follow the same rules as lightning claws. "

It then goes on to talk about how it generates extra attacks if it scores an unsaved wound etc.

So I would agree they are the strength of the dread, and ap3...

Have I interpreted that right!? Did he have his dex handy to look at when you were discussing this?

And how, don't know how the dude could think that he got the hit again for every hit.. I know it wasn't for cheating but this way creating OP units isn't that hard.

[[TA]Typher]

Didn't they aalso FAQ it so it can only gain the number of attacks that it starts with? IE: No 20 attacks possible? I could have swore I saw that.

[Gillyfish]

Sometimes you get games like that where someone makes an honest (or dishonest) mistake and it radically affects things. It's only one loss and not a reflection of your ability as a player, so don't let it get you down. Sometimes it goes the other way and you'll find that you end up with an overwhelming advantage. Were the other players friends with your opponent by any chance?

[Biggabertha]

The trouble is, Magic: The Gathering pretty much depends on its game to make money for them. It's REALLY hard to get into some dispute(s) in Magic without a solid judging from somewhere in your gaming group/tournament.... too bad that Warhammer doesn't really work that way so much.

 

Games Workshop makes their money from potential buyers (that later give up), those new to the hobby and collectors (lots of enthusiasts pick up entire battle companies, regiments, races etc.) that just don't play the game.

 

Games Workshop employees have even confirmed this.

 

The main focus, it seems, is for them to make new models for such enticement while the rules (and one could argue fluff) take a bit of a backseat. In many other games, issues are addressed quickly and have people saying something about their decisions (not gonna go into the huge dispute that is Mythics, Planeswalkers and more than half the cards in Yu-Gi-Oh!) but Games Workshop take a VERY long time to get things straightened out for us.

 

The Dark Angels have always been stubborn but come on now, we've been shafted a LOT until the last two years where we received a major overhaul but there's still quite a few things that need fixing (Land Speeder Vengeance, Apothecary, Deathwing Sergeant etc.) and we all just stubbornly put up with it. (In fairness, a few other players have stuck to their guns (or whatever) as well... I can't imagine that sixth edition's being all that nice to Dark Eldar, Orks or Tyranids (we'll see about Tyranids when I get their shiny new book).

 

 

More on topic:

 

SEVEN failed rolls out of twelve..?! Damn man... That's really unfortunate... Bad luck and bad interpretation of rules like that's a huge downer when it comes to playing. I like your gut feeling of it being just TOO strong - if Blood Claws/Talons WERE meant to be that strong, NO ONE would take the standard Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon(s) instead of them because yeah... It'd be worth paying 5 - 50 extra points for that ridiculously over-powered upgrade. Encounter three of those guys from Deepstrike and pretty much nothing can survive (wonder how Cypher would...).

 

 

The way I cope in such situations is to either reason with my opponent that it's too strong (and no one would field any alternative - so why isn't everyone on the internet buzzing about it?) or if it's deliberate rule bending to their favour, I've learnt to just not play with that opponent again. Rarely, will those games be any fun to play, there'd be no narrative being forged and worse of all, I'd be seriously bummed out afterwards.

 

(Prevention, not curing..! That's how I'd solve the blues!)

 

Good luck - Deathwing's only real solutions to such a beast are probably Godhammer Land Raiders or Venerable dual Twin Linked Autocannon Dreadnought at range. I think...

[Barnie25]

Sometimes you get games like that where someone makes an honest (or dishonest) mistake and it radically affects things. It's only one loss and not a reflection of your ability as a player, so don't let it get you down. Sometimes it goes the other way and you'll find that you end up with an overwhelming advantage. Were the other players friends with your opponent by any chance?

 

Yeah I guess you'll always have 'those days', we are all friends so there are no bad intensions.

 

 

The trouble is, Magic: The Gathering pretty much depends on its game to make money for them. It's REALLY hard to get into some dispute(s) in Magic without a solid judging from somewhere in your gaming group/tournament.... too bad that Warhammer doesn't really work that way so much.

 

Games Workshop makes their money from potential buyers (that later give up), those new to the hobby and collectors (lots of enthusiasts pick up entire battle companies, regiments, races etc.) that just don't play the game.

 

Games Workshop employees have even confirmed this.

 

The main focus, it seems, is for them to make new models for such enticement while the rules (and one could argue fluff) take a bit of a backseat. In many other games, issues are addressed quickly and have people saying something about their decisions (not gonna go into the huge dispute that is Mythics, Planeswalkers and more than half the cards in Yu-Gi-Oh!) but Games Workshop take a VERY long time to get things straightened out for us.

 

(..)

 

Good luck - Deathwing's only real solutions to such a beast are probably Godhammer Land Raiders or Venerable dual Twin Linked Autocannon Dreadnought at range. I think...

 

 

The difference in philosophy is what has been the hardest since my step into Warhammer. I really like the game though but sometimes a bit more clarity would have been nice. I actually run a LRC and a Godhammer side to side but my Lascannons only whiffed.

[Master Avoghai]

Actually, the truth lies more on the entry rather than strictly on the claw rule.

 

If the dread entry states that A Blood Angel Dreadnought may equip its DCCW with a claw

Then indeed it's S10AP2 reroll to wound

 

If the dread entry states that the Blood Angel Dreanought may replace any of its weapons by a claw

Then the CC attacks will be resolved with S6AP3

 

I can also tell you that if your opponent choose to equip his dread with one DCCW and one Claw, he won't add the benefits of both but will be obliged to choose which weapon he use. In addition to that he can't get the +1A bonus as it's a LC hence a specialist weapon.

 

We all agree that GW rules can be better written sometimes but in this present feature it's more your opponent who has to wonder if he read correctly

[Aradiel]

the BA codex says "replace both blood fists with a pair of blood talons for free"

the fists are normal DCCWs, the talons are lightning claws (S6, AP3) and they have not been FAQed, so they can generate attacks ad infinitum.

[SvenONE]

I'm curious, how long has your opponent (and gaming group) been playing? And playing blood angels specifically

 

The reason I bring it up is that one thing I've noticed about this game is that there are a lot of "vets" who presume to know all the rules simply due to the fact they've played since X edition, but are rarely seen playing 6th edition.  But they will tell you with confidence what the rules are, that kind of sounds like what happened here.

 

Unfortunately your opponent (and your gaming group) basically combined the two best aspects (while getting the part about generating an extra attack wrong) of the rules into a super rule which really changed the game considerably for you.  I don't know how it was misinterpreted, the codex is pretty clear cut, I know GW has ambiguity with some rules but this doesn't really seem like one of them.  GW also writes a lot of rules that are opposite one another (for example missile launchers can shoot frag or krak, low strength but blast, high strength but single shot), so common sense sort of directs you to believe as you did, that something was wrong with they way he was doing it.

 

Terminators are one of the few things in this game a blood claw dread DOESNT mow down with ease, and they sure as heck shouldn't roll over landraiders.  In situations like this, if I play a player like this again I bring it up in a friendly way.  "hey, so I went home and checked those rules, I think we may have done that wrong".

[Gillyfish]

I think SvenOne's approach is a good one if you do play your previous opponent again. Explain that you checked the rules and that you sought advice from a range of sources. Be fair though, so if you do find anyone who agrees with their interpretation let them know that that was the case, but also whether they were in the minority or majority!

[Master Avoghai]

the BA codex says "replace both blood fists with a pair of blood talons for free"

the fists are normal DCCWs, the talons are lightning claws (S6, AP3) and they have not been FAQed, so they can generate attacks ad infinitum.

So that's what I'm saying : not a problem of rules writing but of rules reading... Replace is pretty clear.

[ObscuraZero]

Sorry if this thread is a little older and has been resolved, but I'm on the opinion the blood talons would be str 6. The blood talon entry in the BA codex doesn't state the weapons are/count as dreadnought close combat weapons and therefore would only be resolved at str 6. The blood fist on the other hand is stated as being a dreadnought close combat weapon and would strike at str 10.

 

Just my 2 cents.