Emperors Teeth Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I'm going with a regular Mortis Dreadnought and loading up on the Hunter Killers and TLLC's. Still cheaper, if slightly less survivable than the Contemptor. Just gotta keep it in a little cover, I guess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285437-anti-air-choices-in-betrayal/page/2/#findComment-3568671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vazzy Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Only Legionaries and Ordo Reductor can handle the stresses of the Primaris at full thrust and shift. The first two I buy will be piloted by Legionary's Maverick and Goose. With this playing on the turn they come in right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285437-anti-air-choices-in-betrayal/page/2/#findComment-3568992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KBA Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Only Legionaries and Ordo Reductor can handle the stresses of the Primaris at full thrust and shift. The first two I buy will be piloted by Legionary's Maverick and Goose. If this thing shows up in a Heresy rulebook, it will be joining my XIX. Not sure if a legionary would fit in its (or the Lightning's) cockpit though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285437-anti-air-choices-in-betrayal/page/2/#findComment-3569069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Only Legionaries and Ordo Reductor can handle the stresses of the Primaris at full thrust and shift. The first two I buy will be piloted by Legionary's Maverick and Goose. If this thing shows up in a Heresy rulebook, it will be joining my XIX. Not sure if a legionary would fit in its (or the Lightning's) cockpit though. It is available. Per page 184 of Betrayal, you may take 1-3 Imperial Navy Fighters from Imperial Armor Aeronautica as a Lord of War choice in a HH army. The Thunderbolt is on page 9 of IA Aeronautica. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285437-anti-air-choices-in-betrayal/page/2/#findComment-3569095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KBA Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 It takes up a Lord of War spot?!?!?! Garbage! Still... Ordered! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285437-anti-air-choices-in-betrayal/page/2/#findComment-3569098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 The Primaris requires a Legionary or a AdMech pilot because of the severe stress it puts on an unmodified human. They state in the Primaris Lightnings' entry that there are 'weaker' stripped versions being built for unmodded mortals, but.... c'mon, it's a super-fast multi-task airframe built for the Legions! Why would you want anything else? If you ain't seen the rules for it yet, I'll tell you right now, this is NOT the Lightning we all knew. This Primaris is a solid choice for tank hunting, fortification busting, dog fighting, interdiction, and more; all with a BS of 4. The Navy Lightning is a F-14 Tomcat. Good for it's age, but never an all rounder. The Primaris Lightning is an F-22 Raptor on steroids, after 6 pots of coffee brewed with Red Bull. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285437-anti-air-choices-in-betrayal/page/2/#findComment-3569123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KBA Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 The Heresy Lightning does come with some nice toy options, a nice ballistic skill, but the Thunderbolt's aesthetics make me swoon if that counts for anything. Fingers crossed it'll show up in a future rulebook in its own 'primaris' incarnation with BS4, and those sweet, sweet bomb/missile options. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285437-anti-air-choices-in-betrayal/page/2/#findComment-3569150 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I'm planning something along the lines of 2 Contemptor-Mortis with Kheres Assault Cannons and a Havoc launcher. Calling it a Skyhammer battery. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285437-anti-air-choices-in-betrayal/page/2/#findComment-3569162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 How about them phosphex bomblets? Mmmh, phosphex in the morning smells like.....victory Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285437-anti-air-choices-in-betrayal/page/2/#findComment-3569201 Share on other sites More sharing options...
infyrana Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I did wonder when the dual kheres with havoc launcher would be mention. I know it got a lot of air time early on when released, but seemed to be light in this thread. For those of us who prefer the dreadnought approach over any sort of tank or air unit - Is anyone bored enough to try the maths between the mortis contemptor Kheres / LC / MM / AC options please? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285437-anti-air-choices-in-betrayal/page/2/#findComment-3569233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Hopefully we see the primaris released soon Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285437-anti-air-choices-in-betrayal/page/2/#findComment-3569263 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Navy/VOSS_PATTERN_LIGHTNING_STRIKE_FIGHTER.html Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285437-anti-air-choices-in-betrayal/page/2/#findComment-3569265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Nope not till I get my legionary pilot :P And legion specific fighter Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285437-anti-air-choices-in-betrayal/page/2/#findComment-3569313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 I'm highly doubting a Legion Specific fighter will pop up, except maybe (still doubtful) for the Scars or Blood Angels. That's a lot of model to focus on one Legion, when they can open one model to all Legions, and simply add nice rules for a Legion or two, and make money across the board. As for the pilot, I guess the question is, in a light and super fast Fighter, would a Legionary wear his Plate, or even carapace, considering every ounce counts towards the fighter's performance? I'm planning some mild conversions to the pilot, to make him more recognizable as an Astartes, but I wouldn't dare clad him in plate. There's a point for me when the rule of cool and reality must part ways, and this is a case where I'll be going the "reality' path a bit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285437-anti-air-choices-in-betrayal/page/2/#findComment-3569482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Hmmm well once you do a conversion I'll follow suit Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285437-anti-air-choices-in-betrayal/page/2/#findComment-3569485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 I did wonder when the dual kheres with havoc launcher would be mention. I know it got a lot of air time early on when released, but seemed to be light in this thread. For those of us who prefer the dreadnought approach over any sort of tank or air unit - Is anyone bored enough to try the maths between the mortis contemptor Kheres / LC / MM / AC options please? I'd done the Kheres/AC/LC mathhammer already when deciding which Contemptor armament I wanted to bring in my Luna Wolves army. I did the ML and MM ones for you, though I did not do melta range for the multimelta - honestly, I think that's gonna be a rare occurance. Given that the Mortis dreadnoughts have to stand still to gain skyfire, you're basically asking your opponent to fly INTO melta range of your AA. And even if they do? The AV12 flyers can take armored ceramite, and the thin-skinned flyers are pretty much a guaranteed pen anyway. Personally, I think the TLLC offers the best mix of range, AP, and ability to deal with ground armor (like Sicarans, other Contemptors, and Land Raiders). 2 TLLC vs AV12 1.944 hits, 1.296 glance+ (0.972 pen), 0.324 chance of explosion ...vs AV11 1.944 hits, 1.620 glance+ (1.296 pen), 0.432 chance of explosion ...vs AV10 1.944 hits, 1.944 glance+ (1.620 pen), 0.540 chance of explosion 2 TLAC vs AV12 3.888 hits, 1.296 glance+ (0.648 pen), 0.108 chance of explosion ...vs AV11 3.888 hits, 1.944 glance+ (1.296 pen), 0.216 chance of explosion ...vs AV10 3.888 hits, 2.592 glance+ (1.944 pen), 0.324 chance of explosion 2 Kheres vs AV12 10 hits, 1.666 glance+ (1.666 pen), 0.277 chance of explosion ...vs AV11 10 hits, 3.333 glance+ (1.666 pen), 0.277 chance of explosion ...vs AV10 10 hits, 5.0 glance+ (3.333 pen), 0.555 chance of explosion 2 TLML vs AV12 1.944 hits, 0.972 glance+ (0.648 pen), 0.108 chance of explosion ...vs AV11 1.944 hits, 1.296 glance+ (0.972 pen), 0.162 chance of explosion ...vs AV10 1.944 hits, 1.620 glance+ (1.296 pen), 0.216 chance of explosion 2 MM (no melta range) vs AV12 1.666 hits, 0.833 glance+ (0.555 pen), 0.277 chance of explosion ...vs AV11 1.666 hits, 1.110 glance+ (0.833 pen), 0.416 chance of explosion ...vs AV10 1.666 hits, 1.388 glance+ (1.110 pen), 0.555 chance of explosion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285437-anti-air-choices-in-betrayal/page/2/#findComment-3569531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
coloroutofspace Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 @kitwulfen: Thanks for doing the math for the Fire Raptor. It looks like it could take down a Lightning in one turn by glancing it. But I'm still not sure how the Raptor's weapons work together. It does have the 'Independent turret fire' and Power of the Machine Spirit and 4 Missiles, which are Ordnance - quite a few rules you have to take into account. So, can you use 2 Missiles per turn, plus fire the Independent Turret plus use the Machine Spirit to fire the main gun at full BS? If so, that'd make it a good choice in my opinion. It seems that we digressed form discussing AA choices from Betrayal (and FW PDFs) and we're talking Massacre now :) We missed the Avenger though. It's somewhat weak and it's a LoW, but as such, it doesn't take up other slots. As to the Massacre choices, Mortis contemptors are my favourite, but does anyone think Hyperios turrets are worth considering? Those are cheaper than Whirlwinds, FA instead of HS, and twin-linked. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285437-anti-air-choices-in-betrayal/page/2/#findComment-3569598 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 If you fire two Hellstrike missiles per phase, one of them will be a snapshot. The Independent Turret Fire rule is worded a little vaguely - maybe it is a little more specific in the book than the PDF. I'm not sure if ordnance forces them to fire as snapshots only or not. I think they get their full ballistic skill, but it's not terribly specific about it. Anyway, assuming Independent Turret Fire works like that you're going to have to use Machine Spirit to fire your Avenger cannon at full BS, or the second missile at full BS and rely on twin linking for the Avenger cannon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285437-anti-air-choices-in-betrayal/page/2/#findComment-3569619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
coloroutofspace Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 If you fire two Hellstrike missiles per phase, one of them will be a snapshot. The Independent Turret Fire rule is worded a little vaguely - maybe it is a little more specific in the book than the PDF. I'm not sure if ordnance forces them to fire as snapshots only or not. I think they get their full ballistic skill, but it's not terribly specific about it. Anyway, assuming Independent Turret Fire works like that you're going to have to use Machine Spirit to fire your Avenger cannon at full BS, or the second missile at full BS and rely on twin linking for the Avenger cannon. If so, I'd rather use the Machine Spirit to fire the second missile as these could do some damage to an AV12 flyer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285437-anti-air-choices-in-betrayal/page/2/#findComment-3569635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheForgottenAngel Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Im going to write a cadence adapted to napalm sticks to kids, but with phosphex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285437-anti-air-choices-in-betrayal/page/2/#findComment-3569860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
infyrana Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 kitwulfen - thank you kindly indeed good sir! So unless I'm blind looking at so many numbers, I'm in need of a second contemptor with some dual TLLCs ! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285437-anti-air-choices-in-betrayal/page/2/#findComment-3569904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KBA Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Nope not till I get my legionary pilot And legion specific fighter I'm still not sold the Primaris is even manned by legionaries. BS 4? Could be equally attributed to the fighter requiring 'all but the most experienced pilots'. Furthermore, it specifically says 'human crew' when upgrading to Battle Servitor Control. The fluff in Massacre never says legionaries pilot it, only that it was 'limited to the elite close-support units of the most well-resourced Legions'. Imperial Army personnel also manned Fellblades and Malcadors in the legions, and I think that's the case here too. Finally, an 8 and a half foot monster, plate or no plate, is going to have a hard time squeezing into that model's cockpit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285437-anti-air-choices-in-betrayal/page/2/#findComment-3570038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Well I want astrates piloting everything squishy humans go smoosh Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285437-anti-air-choices-in-betrayal/page/2/#findComment-3570050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Hands Fanatic Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 squishy humans go smoosh I wan't this on a T-shirt Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285437-anti-air-choices-in-betrayal/page/2/#findComment-3570065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 With a Marine piloting a leman Russ!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285437-anti-air-choices-in-betrayal/page/2/#findComment-3570072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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