Multiple Flamers

[outrider]

My apologies if it was already covered somewhere else but I didn't manage to find. My search-fu is probably not strong enough.

 

I run Imperial Guard with Platoon Command and Special Weapon Squads equipped with more than one Flamer and where once I was happy with my understanding of rules, now I find myself confused.

 

1. First part of the problem and what started it all is wound allocation in general. My understanding of the shooting sequence on page 12 of the core rulebook is that once you determine which firing models are in range and in which firing mode the range (not LOS) no longer matters.

 

Once the number of hits is established and ultimately converted to wounds, these wounds are allocated to the closest model until the pool is empty and regardless of some shooters now possibly being outside of their initial range. This is in line with "out of range" rule on page 16.

 

In regard to Flamers I was told I can only wound models under the template, hence in a specific distance. This means that in the course of allocating wounds a flamer may suddenly end up out of range and all its wounds will be lost. This is in contradiction to the above rule from page 16. And then I've learned it was in the FAQ and now it all makes sense (?????).

 

So the FAQ states that you can't allocate wounds to models that were "not within range ("of" I assume) any of the shooting models when ToHit rolls were made". OK .. seems logical .. but after my 4 flamers I was also shooting a 12" range pistol ...

 

In other words it seems that even though only one enemy model is in 12" range you can still rapid fire and wound the entire enemy squad as long one of your models shoots once at 24" ???

 

2. Second part of my conundrum comes from the above because now I'm being told I have to resolve each flamer individually, i.e. Hit, Wound, Remove, Hit, Wound, Remove, Hit, .. and so on. Can anyone please tell me why because I'm reading it again and again and I'm unable to interpret it this way?

 

Multiple Templates (Page 52) - Hope it's ok to fully quote this.

 

"If a unit is firing more than one shot with the template type,

[yes I do]

 

resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above,

[ok, so the "above" replaces ToHit rolls with automatic hits under some nominal piece of plastic instead of tape-measure and makes a statement that wounds are allocated following normal rules, but doesn't really prompt me to do it immediately]

 

determining and recording how many hits are scored by each template.

[Ok, so first template 3 hits, second template 2 hits, noted total 5, one guy hit twice but that's ok because picture to the right says so]

 

Resolve these, and the rest of the unit's shots, as normal."

[i also shot 3 las-guns in rapid fire, 3 hits, move on to ToWound with the total of 8 Hits]

 

 

+++

 

Am I being unreasonable? Please help me understand this.

[Hyuzanriu]

     Wound and hit allocation is the exact same as if you were shooting at them.  If you have 3 flamers, and all of them only hit 3 models, but the flamer manage to score a total of 5 unsaved wounds.  5 models still die.  That is how I have had it explained to me by multiple GW employees and game veterans.  I have also yet to watch a game or batrep or anything of the like where it was done differently.

 

     If you have 3 flamers in a squad, the whole unit fires at once, all of their weapons.  Even the flamers.  It's not hit, wound, remove, next flamer, and so on.  Whoever told you that has either been cheating you or reading a different rulebook than I have because it's pretty cut and dry IMHO.

[Seahawk]

If you have a guy that shoots a template (8"), and a guy that shoots 48" (missile launcher), then any casualties can continue to be removed from the unit being shot, as long as they are within 48". That's as simple as it gets.

 

 

Second part of my conundrum comes from the above because now I'm being told I have to resolve each flamer individually

That's just plain incorrect. A unit's shooting all happens at the same time. Thus, if each flamer can hit 5 guys from where it's position, then each flamer scores 5 hits. Roll to hit with your other weapons, then roll to wound. 

 

Otherwise, you would be allowed to tell your opponent to roll their multiple bolters one at a time, or missiles, or whatever. 

[Ming]

Furthermore, every weapon in a squad must fire if it can, no holding back. All weapons fire essentially at once. You determine all hits in total, then all wounds, segregating wounds into a wound pool by type, not by distance. Then saves, if able, are taken in order by wound pool type in the order the attacking player declares. Regardless, wounds can extend out to the maximum range of the furthest-firing weapon. Heck, having a IG command squad with three flamers and 2 pistols is just fine...burn them all!

 

Note that because a unit (or model) fires all weapons simultaneously, I ALWAYS have an opponent that has a unit or model that can fire at multiple targets (say, for example, by POTMS) to declare what weapons are shooting where BEFORE any dice are rolled.

[Seahawk]

 

Furthermore, every weapon in a squad must fire if it can, no holding back.

 

No, you can choose to not fire with weapons. Where'd you get this gem?

[Raeven]

Right.  What you are thinking of Ming, is if you choose to fire that weapon, you must fire it at it's full capabilities.  So no single shot from a Bolter instead of rapid fire, if you are in rapid fire range.  

[outrider]

Wound and hit allocation is the exact same as if you were shooting at them. If you have 3 flamers, and all of them only hit 3 models, but the flamer manage to score a total of 5 unsaved wounds. 5 models still die. That is how I have had it explained to me by multiple GW employees and game veterans. I have also yet to watch a game or batrep or anything of the like where it was done differently.

Unless these 3 models we're targeting are the same for all 3 flamers and the rest of their squad is beyond any template's range, i.e. more than 8" away from any firing model. In this case even if you scored all 9 hits to be unsaved wounds, you still will kill only 3 single wound models. That's according to this:

 

"Q: When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds

from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within

range (of) any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e.

half the targeted model are in the shooting models’ range, and half

are not)? (p15)

A: No."

If you have a guy that shoots a template (8"), and a guy that shoots 48" (missile launcher), then any casualties can continue to be removed from the unit being shot, as long as they are within 48". That's as simple as it gets.

 

 

 

Second part of my conundrum comes from the above because now I'm being told I have to resolve each flamer individually

That's just plain incorrect. A unit's shooting all happens at the same time. Thus, if each flamer can hit 5 guys from where it's position, then each flamer scores 5 hits. Roll to hit with your other weapons, then roll to wound.

 

Otherwise, you would be allowed to tell your opponent to roll their multiple bolters one at a time, or missiles, or whatever.

I take it no successful hit is required? So in a unit of four flamers and a commander with a laspistol the wounding range of the flamers increases to 12" in simplistic terms.

 

Right. What you are thinking of Ming, is if you choose to fire that weapon, you must fire it at it's full capabilities. So no single shot from a Bolter instead of rapid fire, if you are in rapid fire range.

When considering something like an Assault 3 weapon there's no doubt about it as you can't shoot just once because you feel like it. However, when it comes to rapid fire weapons, both short and long range options are under "can" not "must". Besides if target is in 12" range it is also within 24" range, so which one takes priority?

 

I believe it is left for shooting player to decide which option to take, unless you are trying to tell me that if a 10 man squad is 12" away from single enemy model, they now must shoot 20 times to kill just that one model ignoring the rest of his squad.

 

In other words for rapid fire weapons - full capability at chosen range. That's what I think anyway.

 

+++

 

Thanks, appreciate your replies.

[Lysere]

In the case of a unit with lasguns also in it the flamers can kill models further out. Note the rules for out of range apply to the "unit" not the "models" with flamers. So if they can all reach at least one model then they can all kill models up to the maximum range of the weapons.

[Seahawk]

 

I take it no successful hit is required? So in a unit of four flamers and a commander with a laspistol the wounding range of the flamers increases to 12" in simplistic terms.

 

When considering something like an Assault 3 weapon there's no doubt about it as you can't shoot just once because you feel like it. However, when it comes to rapid fire weapons, both short and long range options are under "can" not "must". Besides if target is in 12" range it is also within 24" range, so which one takes priority?

 

I believe it is left for shooting player to decide which option to take, unless you are trying to tell me that if a 10 man squad is 12" away from single enemy model, they now must shoot 20 times to kill just that one model ignoring the rest of his squad.

Correct on the range dealy. You don't need to hit with the laspistol to be able to take kills from 12" out, they just had to be in range of the laspistol. As for the rapid fire idea, you do have to shoot twice when within half range.

 

"If a unit shooting Rapid Fire weapons is found to be half range of the target, the firing models within half range fire two shots, while those further away fire one."

 

No choice there.

 

Yes. If your ten men are within rapid fire range of one (out of 20) of the enemy unit, they all must fire two shots. However, since the range of a boltgun is 24", you may remove casualties from within that 24" area. Just because you're rapid firing, that does not reduce the range of your weapon. This makes it very beneficial to only have one enemy within 12", as it makes it easier to blast enemies out of charge range.

[outrider]

Too much time spent shooting Bolters .. it's 1.0x and 0.5x Range not 12" and 24" Range.. read the text and completely disregarded it

[Fibonacci]

In regard to Flamers I was told I can only wound models under the template, hence in a specific distance. This means that in the course of allocating wounds a flamer may suddenly end up out of range and all its wounds will be lost. This is in contradiction to the above rule from page 16. And then I've learned it was in the FAQ and now it all makes sense (?????).

 I just want to reiterate that you were told wrong.  Templates -- be they flamer or blast templates -- are only used to determine the number of hits.  Once that number is determined, which models were under it no longer matter.  Wounds are determined based on the average T of the unit, not the models under the template.  Wounds are then allocated to the closest model to the firing unit.  Not the one closest to the weapon, the one closest to your unit.

 

All weapons are fired at once.  You determine which weapons are in range and fire them all.  Once the hits are counted, roll to wound, keeping weapons with the same S and AP together into wound pools.  Flamers and bolters share the same wound pool; it no longer matters which model hit whom because that is all determined in the wound allocation step.  Once all wounds are determined, start allocating wounds to the closest models one pool at a time.

 

So in short, templates are used to find a number and that is all they do.  Don't try to jump ahead or circumvent the wound allocation rules.  Find the number; add that to your total hits and forget the template even exists from that point on.

[outrider]

So far nobody tried to undermine the interpretation we all seem to agree on. Did a bit of search before posting this topic and although there is not much on the subject to begin with, there seems to be a group of people who genuinely believe the opposite to be true. So let me play the devil's advocate.

 

"If a unit is firing more than one shot with the template type,

resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above,
determining and recording how many hits are scored by each template.
Resolve these, and the rest of the unit's shots, as normal."
 

Now resolve indicates completion and shot can easily mean Hit-Wound-Kill .. I'm sorry I can't ..

 

To shoot doesn't mean to kill, each shot = each placement of a template, and of course you have to do that one at a time! I personally don't have 4 templates to put them all together.

 

Third line clearly suggests we do not leave the ToHit stage until we record the total number of hits. Why do that if we go hit-wound-kill every time?

 

If that's not the right interpretation then we all must be in some serious denial. In any case I'm going to ask GW stuff for advice myself next time I have a chance. Thanks for all your replies again.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Count the total number of hits, then proceed to To Wound rolls, then on to saves and removal of casualties. I do believe there is an example under Template Weapons in the BRB that is very clear on how to do it all.

[totallynotchaos]

The only exception to this rule as far as I know is barrage, as those weapons designate the center of the blast as the firing point. Otherwise, it doesn't matter at all which models are beneath the template, otherwise blasts and templates would be impromptu precision shot weapons.

[Grey Mage]

The only exception to this rule as far as I know is barrage, as those weapons designate the center of the blast as the firing point. Otherwise, it doesn't matter at all which models are beneath the template, otherwise blasts and templates would be impromptu precision shot weapons.

Template and blast are different terms my friend. Blasts us 'a template' but are not 'template weapons'.

[Cactus]

 

The only exception to this rule as far as I know is barrage, as those weapons designate the center of the blast as the firing point. Otherwise, it doesn't matter at all which models are beneath the template, otherwise blasts and templates would be impromptu precision shot weapons.

Template and blast are different terms my friend. Blasts us 'a template' but are not 'template weapons'.

 

Blasts use a "blast marker". 6th edition reserves the word "template" for the teardrop shaped flamer template. Normal use of the word template, and old habits from previous editions, cause us to say template for all the flat plastic bits but that's not RAW.

[totallynotchaos]

I apologize. Big green see-through circle with a hole in the middle that we buy for 15 bucks.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

I apologize. Big green see-through circle with a hole in the middle that we buy for 15 bucks.

Mine are all white. :p