Limiting Mordraks liability

[Gentlemanloser]

First of all thanks to Roma for getting me thinking about Mordrak again.

 

He was, originally, my favorite new character from our new dex.  Interesting and unique rules, and a lovely grimdark background (far better than Crowe...).  And he bring TGS.

 

I have dismissed him in 6th utterly.  But. ;)

 

You only need to take a single Ghost Knight to start attaching ICs to Mordrak.  Not really that great at the start of 6th, as we had limited ICs we could attach to him.  Thanks to having no Battle Brothers.

 

This has changed with the Red Hunters and Codex: Inquisition.

 

Now, for just a 40 point unit upgrade, we can attach all number of ICs to Mordrak, and have him bring them in first turn.  With no scatter.

 

For the moment, consider just;

 

Codex: GK

HQ: Mordrak (200)

HQ: Ghost Knight (40)

HQ: OM Inquisitor, TDA, Psycannon, PML1 (110)

 

Codex: I

HQ: OM Inquisitor, TDA, Psycannon (80)

HQ: OM Inquisitor, TDA, Psycannon (80)

 

That's 5 Terminators, DSing first turn, with three Psycannons and 4 Nemesis Daemonhammers.  With Stealth.

 

But, this does give the unit a majority 3 Toughness.  Not ideal.

 

We could add an additional Ghost Knight, but then we're upping the potential extra loss from 40 points, to 80.

 

How about considering some allies?

 

We have the Red Hunters available to us as Battle Brothers.  While Silas Alberec doesn't have access to TDA, so can't DS with Mordrak, we could take a generic Space Marine IC in TDA and attach it to the unit.

 

This would give the unit a majority 4 Toughness and let them benefit from Adamantium Will, which stacks with our being Psykers for a base 4+ Deny.

 

But which Space Marine IC to use?

 

Tricked out Captain with Relics?

Cheap Librarian?

Maybe even a Chaplain?

 

[jeffersonian000]

Mordrak doesn't actually require a Ghost in order for ICs to attach to him, although more Ghosts gives you a larger wound pool to Look Out Sir hits from the T3 Inquisitors. And technically, you can attach 5 OM Inqs w/ TDA+Psycan via the Inq detachment and Inq allies.

 

From personally experience, I've found the GK Librarian to be the best IC to be transported by Mordrak, with Draigo a close second. While attach Inquisitors does add a much needed S7 punch, the T3 majority Toughness shift requires more points to offset, as you pointed out.

 

SJ

[Grimm Blade]

IMHO attaching the Librarian allows for more strategic versatility/flexibility.

[Gentlemanloser]

I could go C:I Primary, and Dual FoC that for 4 Inquisitors, but that would then limit me to C:GK as allies, and no Allied Red Hunters.

 

You can't take C:I in the ally slot at all.  It's Inquisition detachment or Primary detachment only.

 

Edit: But Dual FoC GK would give 5 Inquisitors.

 

 

IMHO attaching the Librarian allows for more strategic versatility/flexibility.

 

GK Libby over an Inquisitor?

 

Or did you mean a SM Libby in TDA?

[Roma]

I would go with:

mordrak

 

A grey knight librarian, might of titan, warp rift, quicksilver (suddenly makes the unit into a bomb and possibly the strongest melee deathstar).

 

2 inquisitors, TDA, psycannon (cheap as chips firepower and wounds, especially at that toughness)

 

I would leave it at that. They are almost immune to vanilla firepower, and anything else will just make them more battlecannon/dual riptide bait.

 

This would really have to be supported from turn 1 by killing high strength low ap. I can't really think of anything that would save you fro, 2+ riptides unless the rest of your army is pure long-range firepower from guard or marines.

[Quozzo]

Take Mordrak and two prescience inqs then take two intercpetors (or NDK) that shunt up the table in the first turn and in range of the darestriking inqs casting prescience on the squads of shunting goodness.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

And then a Riptide intercepts your Super Best Friends blob, and they all die to failed 5+ invulnerable saves :(

[irwit]

Does everyone only ever play vs battlecannons and riptides?    

 

I think this sounds like a good idea personally.  Its a real deathstar,  loads of wounds,  2+ saves and awesome at shooting AND combat.   You dont scatter so you deepstrike out of sight of intercepting riptides etc.  

 

Also turn 2 you could split and have 4 or 5 completely separate units.  Handy so if I squad wants to shoot you,  they can only ever kill a single model.   

 

ALSO,  you could be really cheeky.  so you have 5 indipendant models.  Model closest to enemy goes slightly behind cover.   Next model goes behind him,  then behind him etc.   All your models now get cover saves and can still only be individually targeted. 

[Gentlemanloser]

And then a Riptide intercepts your Super Best Friends blob, and they all die to failed 5+ invulnerable saves

That's fine. The Riptides get eaten next turn by the NDK.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Does everyone only ever play vs battlecannons and riptides?

No, but every player group has at least one Tau and/or IG player. And I'd be amazed if they didn't have Necrons or Eldar.

That's fine. The Riptides get eaten next turn by the NDK.

Maybe. That Crisis team hiding behind the hill have you locked on.

[jeffersonian000]

The key to using Mordrak as a vehicle for Bomb delivery is placement. People on forums always throw out these hard counter scenarios, yet there is almost always something blocking LoS, or providing cover, or needing the distraction of a 1st turn DS. There is always a choice on where to place Mordrak, with a smart choice denying your opponent options. You say a Riptide will intercept my Mordrak Bomb? I say that intercept will only happen if I need my opponent to make a hard choice between intercepting and dying next turn or holding fire until their turn. Most of the time, though, there won't be an opportunity to intercept due to smart placement.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

The key to using Mordrak as a vehicle for Bomb delivery is placement. People on forums always throw out these hard counter scenarios, yet there is almost always something blocking LoS, or providing cover, or needing the distraction of a 1st turn DS. There is always a choice on where to place Mordrak, with a smart choice denying your opponent options. You say a Riptide will intercept my Mordrak Bomb? I say that intercept will only happen if I need my opponent to make a hard choice between intercepting and dying next turn or holding fire until their turn. Most of the time, though, there won't be an opportunity to intercept due to smart placement. 

Well obviously. The problem is however, the scenario you picture simply doesn't happen often. LoS blocking terrain (and I'm talking about terrain big enough to hinder a Riptide, because you realise they are amoungst the tallest models in the game right?) is rare and usually not concentrated on one side (it's more commonly spread throughout the middle, to hinder and help both sides). 

 

The smart choice is to nuke your threatening bomb in their DZ. No Tau player is going to ignore that threat, or indeed any other player. This reminds me of the arguments for taking Landraiders since forever. 'Oh but they'll absorb serious anti-tank, so like, the Rhinos won't get shot up as much'. No. They put melta into your Landraider, and autocannon/scatter laser etc into your transports (most likely trying for side armour if you take Chimeras). Same thing here. They can always clean up your infantry with the ion accelerator or whatever gun it is later. The pertinent threat is your Mordrak bomb, they'll go for it no matter what else you shunt up to help out (which is even more points of not-scoring you're taking and feeding to the enemy). 

 

Maybe you get lucky and successfully hide your unit for a turn. The point is, by hiding, you're doing nothing. Mordrak+friends can't score, its unlikely you're landing on something to contest (the enemy can and will use screens to prevent favourable landing spots). They still kill you in their Shooting phase, when they reposition to get LoS on you. Not to mention the Riptide can be on the other side of their DZ and still do this, 60" range is absurd. 

[jeffersonian000]

Who says I'm hiding? DS'ing right next to a unit of Markers, watching the intercepting pie plate drift out target, then Warp Rifting the Markers to oblivion is actually a more common turn 1 for me than the forums seem to imply.

 

SJ

[Roma]

Who says I'm hiding? DS'ing right next to a unit of Markers, watching the intercepting pie plate drift out target, then Warp Rifting the Markers to oblivion is actually a more common turn 1 for me than the forums seem to imply.

 

SJ

The average number of hits for a pieplate,a t bs3, if I remember correctly is just over 1. I would not risk that thing hitting 2+ in deepstrike formation.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Who says I'm hiding? DS'ing right next to a unit of Markers, watching the intercepting pie plate drift out target, then Warp Rifting the Markers to oblivion is actually a more common turn 1 for me than the forums seem to imply.

Your Tau opponents should be learning how to deploy properly then. Drop Pod lists and Deathwing used to crush people back in the day if they didn't castle/refuse flank/daisy chain Kroot to block deployment. Pathfinders have 36" range, he only needs them as far forward as to mark your advance. In any case, losing the 'Finders sucks, but he still has a whole turn to move a Crisis team or Riptide over into LoS to nuke you in his turn. Given he knows you always Turn 1 no scatter Deepstrike, I'm surprised your opponent is doing more to ruin your landing site options. 

[Roma]

I have been thinking about this, and I think the best option is mordrak, 1 terminator and 1 librarian.

 

Deepstrik them right beside whatever you want to nuke (normally riptide). That riptide now cannot intercept them with its ion cannon due to not being able to place the template without covering itself. The plasma rifle isnt a big worry, it might wound mordrak, but then he gets more ghost knights.

 

Proceed to warp rift the sucker. Proceed to bring up you interceptors (2 squads is ideal imo), prescienence them where possible and kill things that can instakill mordrak/librarian.

 

 

This should lead to a pretty even matchup (or possible even in your advantage) when facing the bomb's biggest threat army. Only problem you face now is crisis suits with interceptor (not counting riptides because all they offer in this scenario is one plasma rifle). But its not an insurmountable obstacle.

[jeffersonian000]

Roma has it exactly right, although ai do take 3-4 Ghosts in my Bomb.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

I have been thinking about this, and I think the best option is mordrak, 1 terminator and 1 librarian.

 

Deepstrik them right beside whatever you want to nuke (normally riptide). That riptide now cannot intercept them with its ion cannon due to not being able to place the template without covering itself. The plasma rifle isnt a big worry, it might wound mordrak, but then he gets more ghost knights.

 

Proceed to warp rift the sucker. Proceed to bring up you interceptors (2 squads is ideal imo), prescienence them where possible and kill things that can instakill mordrak/librarian.

 

 

This should lead to a pretty even matchup (or possible even in your advantage) when facing the bomb's biggest threat army. Only problem you face now is crisis suits with interceptor (not counting riptides because all they offer in this scenario is one plasma rifle). But its not an insurmountable obstacle. 

Riptides usually take a twin fusion blaster as their secondary, and can fire it twice (although I think Nova abilities can only be done in their turn, not yours). Also, he can fire the ion accelerator in 3 shot mode. If he's twin- linked somehow (either Support Shas'O or Allied Prescience), you'll likely lose the unit. 

 

I suppose your idea is workable. Interceptor Crisis are rare, it's usually only on Riptides or Broadsides. 'Warp Rift' will definitely remove him, I2 is terrible haha. The biggest problem is that you're trading both your HQ's for one of their Elites. What happens when they have two Riptides?

[jeffersonian000]

What other Riptides? The ones bring dealt with by the DKs and ainterceptors? Those Riptides?

 

No unit exists in a vacuum.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

What other Riptides? The ones bring dealt with by the DKs and ainterceptors? Those Riptides?

I have yet to see a Tau army anywhere that doesn't field two Riptides. It's literally their go-to Elites build, regardless of what they take elsewhere. So yeah, I'd expect to fight two of them, Tau know how much hate they get and they expect to lose one. That's why the Farsight variant list is popular, because it lets them have Crisis as Troops and still take Riptides for Elites (seeing as no one takes Stealth Suits anymore, it means Elites is basically uncontested). 

 

For us its a different story. Purifiers are good but die like Tactical Marines, so they require other investments like a Grand Master, Raven etc to get them doing their job. Paladins are pretty much out of a job now that Riptides are a thing, which is sad because they're priced efficiently. Techmarines can be good, Vindicares are amusing but sadly a very easy First Blood a lot of the time....we have a decent amount of competition for Elites. Riptides stand head and shoulders above Crisis in so many ways, its hard for many Tau players to justify a team over a 'Tide. 

[superwill]

What other Riptides? The ones bring dealt with by the DKs and ainterceptors? Those Riptides?

 

No unit exists in a vacuum.

 

SJ

 

But... isn't the main issue of two riptides the fact that they can both intercept? In which case, it doesn't matter at all what the rest of your army looks like. It's not as if you can shunt, shoot or do anything before your turn 1 deepstrike which will stop it. Right?

[Roma]

Any riptide wargear other than an ion accelerator large blast does not pose a problem to the bomb, because it wont instant death them. And as i explained, they cant use large blast.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

But... isn't the main issue of two riptides the fact that they can both intercept? In which case, it doesn't matter at all what the rest of your army looks like. It's not as if you can shunt, shoot or do anything before your turn 1 deepstrike which will stop it. Right?

Pretty much

 

 

Any riptide wargear other than an ion accelerator large blast does not pose a problem to the bomb, because it wont instant death them. And as i explained, they cant use large blast. 

 

You're still eating S7 AP2 hits. That's enough to remove the ablative Ghost Knights, if not badly wound Mordrak or the Libby. Yeah it won't wipe the squad but it's still a pain to get shot no matter where you land (unless you hide). 

[Roma]

S7 ap2, against mordrak (who should be in the way, or lookoutsir the libby), is nothing. He is good value stat wise (4 wounds, 50p per wound), and a 4+ save.

 

Every time you shoot him, he spawns a 40 point terminator. If you intercept, that means you dont get to shoot in your next phase. Also the riptide is still getting warp-rifted if they survive.

...

To recap: spend your shooting at a bad target, spawn him free terminators and probably lose a riptide.

[Grand Master Caloth]

Again, he only gets one roll per phase.