coloroutofspace Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 I know, I know, it's a silly one :) But, seeing this topic: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285495-a-few-questions-about-30k/ I thought to myself, 'hey, Heresy games are really well balanced, I've never seen an OP Heresy build, never heard of a Heresy powergamer'. I've seen and heard people say, that FW stuff isn't balanced, that the rules for their models are OP, and so on... but that's just And Heresy is more about fluff than the average. Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285527-are-there-any-powergamers-among-us/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komrk Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 I think that there are powergamers in everything but when FW plays FW you can't really complain about it being OP or anything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285527-are-there-any-powergamers-among-us/#findComment-3567366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Yeah there's not much to make op and there are no must takes. Â Â I play to win like anyone else, but there's some sort of code of conduct that I abide. I don't play with units just like op guns in games because they are win buttons. I play for the challenge and show that I have talent regardless of what I pick. Â Â Â The only possible broken thing could be scoring 10 man missile launcher death Gaurd squads in cover and a siege breaker and or master of signal. That's just being a dick. Â Â However even units like the moritat are easy to dispose of, and they get pricy too. Â Â Â The only possible power heresy gamer I saw could be the guy massaen faced on youtube it's his EC against death Gaurd. Â Â Â And half of the stuff you take, you take for fun anyway Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285527-are-there-any-powergamers-among-us/#findComment-3567372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Nah, the power gamers are all trying to get FW units in their 40k lists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285527-are-there-any-powergamers-among-us/#findComment-3567383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disruptor_fe404 Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Of course there are. Â It's just more difficult for them, since the list is balanced against itself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285527-are-there-any-powergamers-among-us/#findComment-3567390 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vazzy Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 There are some. One of my legion opponents is like a power gamer. Loads up on librarians, anything that he can use to ignore cover on my guys with his strenght 10 Ap1 10" blasts Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285527-are-there-any-powergamers-among-us/#findComment-3567397 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I'm sure that there's probably some people here who think I am one, considering my emphasis on mathhammer and harsh evaluation of units and their worth. I wouldn't really agree with that assessment - I don't think power gamer/fluff gamer is a binary choice. I want a good army, but I want it to have good fluff too, and I'm prepared to make sacrifices in efficiency to better fit the vision of my army. I think that's true of most people here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285527-are-there-any-powergamers-among-us/#findComment-3567483 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Some HH players don't even have lists. 1000heathens doesn't. I don't think Darth does either. I am deciding if I want to abandon using an army list to guide my choices or not. Noctus might, but I can't remember off the top if my head. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285527-are-there-any-powergamers-among-us/#findComment-3567494 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I know Noctus was looking at the Reavers list at one time, I don't know if he still is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285527-are-there-any-powergamers-among-us/#findComment-3567499 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 a 2000pt reaver ist isn't actually that many troops but 30 reavers 10 justearian and some little bits and pieces Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285527-are-there-any-powergamers-among-us/#findComment-3567517 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 In HH, there is a counter for anything you throw down. The rules are probably the most balanced we have ever seen in 40K, and while you can make some "death star" units, everyone still has access to them and they get extremely pricey. It's like Grey Knights in 5th... You could build extremely cheesy armies that were OP. But if everyone had access to the same units (or ones very similar), that cheese aspect goes down the drain. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285527-are-there-any-powergamers-among-us/#findComment-3567676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 This is the Horus Heresy, son. We bind our books with the tanned hides of power-gamers, and ink them with their tears. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285527-are-there-any-powergamers-among-us/#findComment-3567698 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 The fact that the basic list is the same for everyone kind of helps to level things out. But yeah, there are Legion-specific units and Legion-specific rules that could give the power gamers food for thought... Â I also find that building a list helps immensly in kicking-off the collection, especially following the rather limiting Rites of War... Some tough choice have to be made to keep the force in line with the theme! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285527-are-there-any-powergamers-among-us/#findComment-3567714 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Apart from raising an eyebrow at discussions regarding what you can do with an Iron Father, I've not noticed an overtly competitive approach to 30k here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285527-are-there-any-powergamers-among-us/#findComment-3567732 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Â Apart from raising an eyebrow at discussions regarding what you can do with an Iron Father, I've not noticed an overtly competitive approach to 30k here. yeah, but even a Super-Father still costs a bucketload of points. And while the Legion specifics could give food for thought, they also give room for pause. For every plus, there is a minus. Its just findin out how to exploit it. And that's the kicker, there might be "power gamers", but they can't really "powergame". Not like they can with 5th Ed GK, 6th Ed Heldrake or Taudar at any rate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285527-are-there-any-powergamers-among-us/#findComment-3567752 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Building a balanced army is hard unless you build to approx 3500pts Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285527-are-there-any-powergamers-among-us/#findComment-3567777 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TemujinZero Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Most people are in it for the fluff. Â I don't think the rules are in any way immune to powergaming. Â Anyone can take a Warhound crammed with D weapons and delete two units per turn. Â 40K would be more balanced if people had the same attitude as the average 30K player. Â That's not to say that the main bulk of 30K rules aren't more balanced. Â Most 30K players aren't going to ditch their Death Guard army and build Salamanders because the rules are slightly better. Â That's partly down to the kind of people that play 30K and partly down to the strength of the rules in giving the legions unique character that players are attached to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285527-are-there-any-powergamers-among-us/#findComment-3567795 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Commander Scrymgeour Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Â Â Most 30K players aren't going to ditch their Death Guard army and build Salamanders because the rules are slightly better. Â That's partly down to the kind of people that play 30K and partly down to the strength of the rules in giving the legions unique character that players are attached to. Also the price ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285527-are-there-any-powergamers-among-us/#findComment-3567801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Building a balanced army is hard unless you build to approx 3500ptsTrue. But let's look at say, a 1,000-ish(I forget the total) Night Lords list using the Terror Assault Rite of War. Your three Terror Squads fill up the bulk of your list and can be a very shooty army. For your FA, just throw in a Javelin Squadron for anti-armor and some cheap, random lord. Give him a jetbike so he can be a CC shield for the Javelins and rapid response for the Terrors. All in all a fast, shooty list. But you are low on numbers. A grand total of only 34 minis on the field. Your squads will almost always be outnumbered and most likely outgunned. And CC? With twenty man mobs? Forget it.  For every advantage a list can build, it has a critical weakness. The Night Lords especially since they have a decent offense, but virtually no defense unless they deploy defensive units.  World Eaters, great buffs after winning CC. Problem is getting to CC. And so on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285527-are-there-any-powergamers-among-us/#findComment-3567828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Building a balanced army is hard unless you build to approx 3500pts  I'm intrigued by your post, Jaspcat, as I think you can produce a balanced list at 2000, i.e.  a couple of troop choices (Tact blobs with apothecaries for example), some heavy support, and fast attack, all under a Praetor with bodyguards. Of course you soon start shedding points if you want destroyers etc. .) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285527-are-there-any-powergamers-among-us/#findComment-3567833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 You can build a balanced list at 2,000. Will it be as fun as a 3,500 point list? Nope. For HH, more is better. You can play a 5,000 point game without even touching Lords of War or Apocalypse, that's the great thing about it. And your points build up VERY fast. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285527-are-there-any-powergamers-among-us/#findComment-3567901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vazzy Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Yeah it is astonishing how fast points stack. Especially with Breacher squads, who are not really worth their points but too fun not to use. I also made the error of putting gravy guns on them, so they never get to shoot as I push them forward. I think the Horus Heresy just brings a different kind of player compared to 40k, at least in most cases. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285527-are-there-any-powergamers-among-us/#findComment-3568020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 A more genteel and refined lover of blood and gore :D. One that comments on the inherent hypocrisy of Imperial expansion while his World Eaters chew through ranks of guardsmen or discusses the economic challenges of inflation in Ultramar as commodities decrease in price with every new world brought into the 500 as he delivers retribution into the Word Bearers. Â Â Yes, 30K is the game for a more intelligent connoisseur of visceral science fiction. Â Â *sips tea, and replaces monocle while a warm fire crackles nearby* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285527-are-there-any-powergamers-among-us/#findComment-3568055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 A more genteel and refined lover of blood and gore :D. One that comments on the inherent hypocrisy of Imperial expansion while his World Eaters chew through ranks of guardsmen or discusses the economic challenges of inflation in Ultramar as commodities decrease in price with every new world brought into the 500 as he delivers retribution into the Word Bearers. Yes, 30K is the game for a more intelligent connoisseur of visceral science fiction. *sips tea, and replaces monocle while a warm fire crackles nearby* Â I do say chappo, what's all this business with Taudar? Â *sips brandy, continues writing personal fluff* Â Oh they do put on a good show bucko, but you know I find these "nouveau 40k" players quite despicable. My word! Have you seen the abomination they just put out lately?! Â ....power armor within power armor...I fear a revolt amongst the lower class....hmm Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285527-are-there-any-powergamers-among-us/#findComment-3568058 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheForgottenAngel Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I died laughing Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285527-are-there-any-powergamers-among-us/#findComment-3568081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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