Effective units

[FragEmAll]

Hi everyone. I am a long standing Space Marine player, however I have collected Imperial Guard for a while as well, though not ever gamed with them. I'm off to Warhammer World for a gaming weekend with the lads and one of them has asked to use my Imperial Guard. He has no experience of them at all either, so I am calling on your combined experience to aid me in turning this bunch of fresh faced recruits into a force that can hold its own.

 

What are generally considered to be the most effective units?

 

I see the potential for some devastating combinations of characters in massed infantry squads. what are better Priests or Commisaars or both?

 

Is it worth taking heavy weapons in said squads, or better to have them as separate support squads? What about combat weapons for the Sergeants - I assume probably not.

 

Is there a big focus on HQ's? (I run a seriously tooled up Captain for my Marine Biker force - I love hard as nails characters - these IG Chaps seem a bit squishy) Is it worth tooling up a command squad?

 

I have a limited time to turn this into an effective force - we're heading up next Friday. Currently I have a trio of Leman Russ tanks and probably about 100 guardsmen with various heavy and special weapons.

 

HELP!!!

[hendrik]

in general no guardmen wants to be in close combat so try to avoid that, shooting on the other hand! when you're playing guardsmen there's one thing you have over many other armies and it's redundancy. so what if those space marines just destroyed an entire infantry squad, there's a dozen more of them waiting to die! if you could say what type of heavy weapons and special weapons and how many you have, and what point level the game will be, we might be able to help you with building a list

[WarriorFish]

Sounds like a bit of a tall order in such short time, but we'll do what we can Guard are a shooting army so that's what you should focus on, they're not elite like Marines so you should be aiming to make useful units for the least amount of points. One of the strengths of the codex is how much variety and choice there is which doesn't really help you given your lack of experience. For example heavy weapon teamss - there are good reasons to take them in squads or as part of infantry squads so it's as much personal preference/requirements as anything else.

I like to have them in squads as it allows you to concentrate their fire power and keep the infantry squads moving. Armed with a cheap special weapon (flamer is great) an infantry squad is cheap and yet still useful especially in numbers. Commissars are more useful than Priests who are more combat based, especially as part of a blob squad to keep them in the fight. If it tickles your fancy you can take HWTs in the combined squads and have a lot of shots to put out backed by orders and plenty of bodies!

Following on from that your Company Command Squad should be mostly built for giving orders and keeping their heads down. Command Squads are low on models and not that survivable so you don't want to paint a big target on them and spend lots of points. Straken can give you some muscle if you really want, but as a recruit I'd stick to the "standard" for now if I were you.

There is a mouth watering array of armour and artillery available for Guard, such that you can find something for every occasion. As it stands your options are a bit limited, short of getting new models super quick. Take the 3 Russes (standard I assume?) as your 3 Heavy Support slots then load up on as much infantry and heavy weaponry as you can. With the current ordnance rules I wouldn't bother with sponsons to save points.

Could you give us a break down of what special/heavy weapons you have, or is it a case of "enough for whatever", more or less? What points value are you fighting at? You'll want to have a solid AT capability in your infantry to support the Russes.

Very quick run down on weapons:

Flamers - a Guardsman's best friend, no BS required and cheap as chips!

Grenade Launcher - cheap, flexible but best in multiples to have a decent effect

Plasma - best on BS4 platform like Vets, valuable AP2

Melta - same as Plasma, but Guard have ways to take on armour at range

Mortars - cheap and effective, can harass enemy rear units and force his hand

Heavy Bolters - good anti-infantry, but generally loses our to the Autocannon

Autocannon - good middle-ground weapon for dealing with heavier infantry and light to medium armour

Missile Launcher - one shot weapons aren't great for Guard, so most take the Lascannon over S8

Lascannon - expensive but nice, best with something to improve them like orders

[Argun]

For HQ's, they want to stay in the background (especially for company command squads) Take 2 CCS, and put advisors in them if points allow. You definitely want to mess with your opponents reserves (if he has any) and really boost yours (with astropath, things come in on a 2+!) The Master of the Ordnance is a very cheap basilisk shot, albeit one that can scatter obscenely far away. For a die-hard kinda HQ, use Straken in one squad, Creed in another (Outflanking a sqadron of Russes is fun!)

If you've got them, I'd even suggest adding in a psyker battle squad to protect your infantry from things like thunderwolves (making them Ld2 is fun as well!)

I usually run veterans with x3 plasma or melta, along with a power sword/plasma pistol just to give them a chance in CC. But I also run an infantry platoon or two to make up for the lack of bodies that one veteran squad has.

As the others have said, we've kinda got to know what you've got in a general sense to really help you out.

Personally, I'd suggest drowning your opponents in artillery fire (Colossus is a must, as are medusae... but the basilisk is nice too)

[FragEmAll]

Thanks for the prompt responses chaps. I realise its a tall order - not even sure I'll have my new Sternguard squad for my own army ready in time! Here (In no particular order) is what I have:

 

Commander (The old Penal Legion commander so plasma pistol and power sword)

Banner and medic

Power fist armed Commisaar

Stormtroopers x 12 (Kassie models with 1 each available special weapon)

Primaris Psyker (An old Necromunda wyrd model)

Chimera x 1

Standard Leman Russ x 2 (With heavy bolter sponsons)

Leman Russ Demolisher x 1 (With plasma cannon sponsons)

Hellhound x 1

80 Lasgun armed guardsmen

3 Flamers

8 Grenade launchers

1 x plasma gun

1 x melta gun

1 x heavy bolter

1 x lascannon

1 x autocannon

3 x missile launchers

various platoon command models

 

 

It has too much variety for gaming purposes which is why I never used them, however I do have an overflowing bits box and an almost homicidal urge to wield modelling clippers.

[Argun]

I'd definitely suggest dropping the plasma cannons on the Demolisher, as they're useless now with the Ordnance rules for tanks. I'd also kit out the CCS for a back-field anti-infantry role--put the flamers in it, and possibly the lascannon too (BS4 is a godsend for the heavy weapons of the Guard) Also put that commander in here, and a master of the ordnance.

Use another CCS, and put in an officer of the fleet and a Master of the Ordnance.

I'd also make one platoon as a mix of anti-tank/anti-infantry. Place the missile launchers in 1 heavy weapons squad, place the heavy bolter in the PCS, and put the grenade launchers in the squads (use 6 full squads here if points allow)

Take the stormtroopers, and use them as a Veteran Squad and put the plasma and melta in there. Also give them the Grenadiers doctrine, since carapace armor shrugs off bolter rounds very nicely.

If possible, might you be able to convert the chimera into another hellhound? running one is okay, but running them in squadrons of 2 is even better.

 

That's just my 2c, but I'd greatly suggest getting artillery for these chaps. You want to get rid of things far away, as Guard don't always to so great in close ranges.

[hendrik]

company command squad: lascannon 75 pts

platoon A(defense):

PCS:autocannon 45pts

inf sqd: grenade launcher missile launcher70pts

inf sqd: grenade launcher , missile launcher 70 pts

 

 

platoon B (advancing):

PCS: 1 grenade launcher 40 pts

inf sqd: grenade launcher 55 pts

inf sqd: grenade launcher 55 pts

inf sqd: grenade launcher 55 pts

inf sqd: grenade launcher 55 pts

special weapon squad: 3x flamer 50 pts

 

 

 

Hellhound: hull HF 130 pts

Devildog: hull MM 135 pts

 

leman russ demolisher: 165 pts

leman russ: battle tank 150 pts

leman russ: battle tank 150 pts

that's 1355 pts i believe.

for fun you could add an inquisitor and turn those stormtroopers into stormbolter wielding acolytes in carapace armour (12 pts per model)!

the general idea of this list is that the hellhounds and demolisher advance, supported by platoon B, making use of cover though.

you simply lack long range models so you'll have to take the fight to the enemy! use infantry squads to grant your leman russes a cover save

[WarriorFish]

Hmm, that's not a great variety of weaponry but Argun and hendrik have bashed some nice ideas/lists together. You definitely need to spice your armoury up a bit, the fact you have more Missile Launchers than anything else says a lot!

I like Flamers and Grenade Launchers on my Infantry Squads, cheap assault weaponry that helps focus them on anti-infantry duties and taking objectives. The GL can pump out kraks if you need it which provides a bit of flexibility, though Flamers are still my preferred weapon so the ratio tends to be skewed in their favour.

The Demolisher is best with only a Heavy Flamer on the hull (which is free!) as it can do more than enough with that, and a Hellhound is a solid choice for almost any Guard army Give the Chimera to your CCS to keep them safe.

Keep your units close by and working together, numbers mean nothing if you go in piecemeal. Always plan ahead to have units supporting each other, even if this is as simple as giving armour infantry escorts. Give your opponent hard decisions, if he destroys one of your units he should be exposing himself to the wrath of more who are waiting for him to do just that!

Your Guard army will benefit from you indulging in your clipping urges, so I'd recommend adding to your collection. A few additions would open up a lot more possibilities

[FragEmAll]

alrighty. Thank you all so much for your input. Here is the criteria:

 

2k Doubles tournament (1k points each)

No special Characters

 

The chap i'm doing this for wants an infantry wave, so I am converting models as we speak.

 

Last time we did this most of our players were power armoured elite armies so few models and hard hitting, so here is what I am thinking:

 

 

Command Squad: boltgun, Lascannon, Vox-caster

 

Lord Commisaar: Powerfist

 

Priest: Eviscerator

 

Infantry platoon:

Platoon command squad - boltgun, 3 x grenade launcher, Vox-caster

5 x Infantry squads - 5 x flamers, 1 x vox-caster

 

Veteran squad: lascannon, plasma gun

 

Leman Russ: Lascannon

 

Leman Russ: Lascannon

 

TOTAL: 999 points

 

The plan would be to run a 50 man blob squad with 5 x flamers and a Power fist Armed Lord Commisaar and an Eviscerator armed Priest - perfect for swamping elites. 5 x flamer overwatch when charged will be funny as hell. The platoon command squad will lurk behind them flinging orders.  

 

the Company Command squad and Veteran squad with lascannon and plasma gun will stay midfield and provide some BS4 support. The Leman Russ' will look big and scary and fling pie plates around.  

 

Probably not the most effective list, but I think it will be fun. plus an opportunity for him to attempt to humiliate enemy elite units in combat - something he will no doubt enjoy.

 

Based on what I have, what do you all think?

[WarriorFish]

It's unfortunate that you're got a limited model pool (and time) because you can do some really evil things to an MEQ/elite dominated meta with Guard! I think you've made a pretty good list with what you've got, the rest is down to what happens on the day and the Emperor's favour. Seek His blessings and report back to us how it goes - good luck!

[FragEmAll]

Right! Back from the Shrine of 40k that is Warhammer World! I ended up playing the Imperial Guard army for a game against Space Wolves and it was possibly the most fun game I've ever had.

 

Thank you all so much for your input. The Imperial Guard infantry platoon especially absolutely did everything we asked it to. Anything they aimed at just fell apart at the sheer volume of fire.

 

in one game against Space Wolves they managed to pull off a 12" redeploy (Thanks to the rather funky 'move,move,move' order) to screen the pair of Leman Russ tanks against a squad of thunderwolf cavalry and a thunderwolf mounted Wolf lord that was about to eat them. a Demolisher round took apart two of them and the ensuing combat involved my less than heroic commisaar declining the wolf lords challenge repeatedly whilst the priest slowly carved him apart. the Wolf Lord had some kind of saga that buffed attacks for the casualties inflicted the previous turn, so much so that I think he took out 11 guardsmen in a single turn. eventually they overwhelmed the space doggies and began an advance against an enemy long fang squad perched in a ruin on a hill, flaming and volley firing them to death. they eventually fell back decimated from a Wolf priest after the lord commisaar got his head caved in by a force mace, falling back with about 6 members left. Acceptable casualties I think!

 

By the way the leman russ tanks pounded a pair of Grey Hunters into oblivion.... which was fun, and the company commander - after being left with only his vox operator for company out of his command squad and veteran squad after taking some horrendous firepower in the first turn. hid behind a ruin for the rest of the game until a pair of Grey hunters (Pretty much the only survivors of some accurate battle cannon fire) charged them. The vox operator managed to full auto one to death and the commander stepped up to chainsword the other one in the face!

 

All in all epic and I love Imperial Guard now.

[Kilofix]

Coming from a Chaos Marine player, having also recently started playing (Traitor) IG:

 

One thing you seem to have picked up and that everyone had been telling me (but I had been slow to adopt initially) is that you need alot of Infantry, even for an Armored list.

 

First few games I had been running lists with 3 LRs, 3 Ordnance, and a bunch of other Chimeras, Hellhounds, etc. Most of the time, my (more experienced) opponent would Airstrike, Deep Strike or Outflank and Melta my whole list.

 

Or simply kill off all my scoring Troops. One game I had 4 tanks left and no scoring units.

 

But once you drop in like a hundred Guardsmen to screen even just 2 AV14 LRs, and the latter suddenly become Death Stars.

 

Even the Command Squad with 3 Flamers or so can be used offensively for (comparatively) cheap.

 

Nowadays I still use LRs, Ordnance, and Hellhound variants, but lots more Guardsmen (and a Firestorm Redoubt). I actually don't bother with Elites, nor Priests, nor Commissars. I don't even use Valks / Vendettas.

 

I do however use Creed, Harker and / or Al'Rahem to outflank with Meltas or Flamers, etc.

 

I have been experimenting with Primaris Psykers in small games.

[WarriorFish]

Huzzah! Congratulations on your ascension from Conscript to a fully-fledged Guardsman in His service One you go Guard there's no going back

You game sounded like it was a lot of fun, you showed those pups who's in charge. Next time they should sit and shake hands when told to! I particularly liked your tale of the CCS fighting of some Wolves as it is very similar to what happened in my last Guard game against SW. It was a while ago, in the dying days of 5th, my lone Commander with no upgrades faced down and defeated a Wolf Claws Lord in one on one combat.

I look forward to hearing more of your exploits

[FragEmAll]

it was great, and so much so that me and the dude I went with (Two 30 something chaps by the way) are now fighting over them like children hahaha He took the list to a casual games night last night and text me today to say that the newly christened Blob-Squad-Of-Imperial-Doom took out an Imperial Fists librarian and drednought in close combat........

 

......eviscerators for the win!

 

 

By the way, something we noticed was that when you decline a challenge - your opponent chooses which model declines a challenge. if the Lord commisaar is the selected model then your unit isn't stubborn and doesn't use his Ld10.

 

We're thinking of running a second basic commisaar alongside the lord commisaar so we can still benefit from Ld10 and stubborn. Is this overkill? or is it sensible?

[WarriorFish]

The challenge mechanics are a bit... well let's just say they're "interesting". I'd rather they didn't exist and in my games we generally forget about them anyway (or just don't care enough, I'm not sure?) but they can provide problems. It makes it easy for combat armies to nullify weaker assault armies by issuing challenges to either stomp or remove a valuable Sergeant and his Leadership for example so if you want to use a character then you need to prepare. It's one of the reasons CC upgrades for Guard are useless in most cases.

 

So another Commissar would of course work but why not throw a bare bones Sergeant into the challenge? His über character wastes his attacks on a lowly Sergeant and your Commissar Lord gets to do his thing unhindered. Either way: not overkill and very sensible if you want them in combat :P

[FragEmAll]

The issue in this particular scenario was that I had my big unit of guardsmen with attached characters facing off against a single wolf lord on a thunderwolf. I could have tied him up all game by doing a sacrificial challenge, but I wanted to kill him ;)