Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 So, with the advent of the Forge World Chapter Traits, Red Hunters are now a thing. Lets consider what Knights do well already, and what they want from their new Marine BFF's. Knights: - Scoring Terminators - Cheap Henchmen for fire support, scoring, melee and/or mech spam - Purifiers wreck anything not in 2+ armour - Ravens deliver melee Henchmen and Purifiers to enemy backlines for fun times - Dreadknights rip Wraithknights and Riptides into tiny pieces Marines: - Terminator Librarians tank like a boss for cheap - Sternguard try to be as cool as Purifiers but fail - Tacticals are terrible, Scouts at least are cheap and have sniper rifles to pin xenos units with - Attack Bikers with multi-meltas were good, but with the lack of armour in 6th, no longer relevant - Devastator Centurions are immune to Heldrakes and with a Libby they're hard to Riptide as well Adamantium Will means they 5+ for Deny rolls, which makes them about as good as most Knight units at anti-psyker (ignoring Aegis). Protocols gives you a free special rule on the turn you need it. So, how to put these two together? Primary Knights is better, as you really don't want Marine Troops choices HQ: Coteaz is obvious choice. He makes Dev Centurions retardedly good (re-rolls and 'Ignore Cover' or a 4+ invul), not to mention 'IBEY' with their guns is hilarious against Derpstrikers or Outflankers. Also, cheap Henchmen for Troops. Your second HQ slot should be a cheap Prescience Inquisitor. Attached to either Purifiers or Terminators, he offers another Stubborn Ld10 re-roll hits attachment. Don't forget the servo-skulls to help your plasma cannons hit and to ruin Infiltrate/Scout armies. Your Allied slot should be a Terminator Librarian w/force axe+storm shield and Mastery 2 upgrade. He weighs in under 130 points, which is pretty impressive. Biomancy or Telepathy, leaning more towards Biomancy as both he and Purifiers like not dying quickly. Elites: 1-2 squads of Purifiers. These are your 'press button, watch enemy unit evapourate' squads. I'd go either quad incinerator or quad psycannon. If going quad psycannon, attach Terminator Librarian to beef them up with Biomancy and go mid-field to ruin someone's day. If going quad incinerator, a Raven is a mandatory investment to deliver them safely to the enemy backline (don't forget to combat squad, as it means two 'Cleansing Flame' castings). Troops: Lots of choices here. Terminator combat squads are amazing as aggresive objective takers, as they also score for you. Walking is fine as you have psycannon and storm bolter to contribute, leaving melee for when you get intercepted or need to clear someone off an objective. Henchmen should probably be shooty (triple plasma cannon then add up to 9 storm bolter chumps to take wounds), or go min and bring a tonne of Razorbacks/Chimeras to soak enemy fire. Take a 5-man Sniper Scout squad for Allies unlock. Tacticals are terrible, don't do it. Fast Attack: Raven if you need it Heavy Support: Dev Centurions are pretty clutch. How big you go is up to you, 4-5 seems about right. Twin-lascannon and missile launcher, so their firepower is relevant (heavy bolter and hurricanes are worthless to Knights). Omniscope is cheap and ensures you don't waste firepower if you need to destroy multiple targets. 1-2 Dreadknights. Teleporter is mandatory, greatsword highly recommended, heavy incinerator handy but expensive. Inquisition supplement offers yet more Prescience Inquisitors, if you want to really spam plasma cannons for Troops. Any combo's or stuff I've missed? I think that about sums up how to put the two together. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285600-red-hunters-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
True_Hisop Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 For me the Red Hunters bring three important things, Space marine bikes as troops as everyone knows these guys are good and can have grav or plasma spam with T5. Lascannon devastator squads, you may think that's a bit pricey but you have to remember long range anti tank is something we lack and something else we lack Skyfire Lascanons on a turn of our choosing. and Legion of the damned these guys got a massive buff in ignores cover, now they deepstrike with accuracy and annihilate that wave serpent from behind with melta goodness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285600-red-hunters-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/#findComment-3568871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 Space marine bikes as troops as everyone knows these guys are good and can have grav or plasma spam with T5 Which Riptides evapourate in about 5 seconds, as does mass Serpent fire. Not to mention Inquisitor cover-ignoring plasma cannons, plasma guns of any kind, melee units eating them....White Scars had a few weeks of hype, then fizzled. Lascannon devastator squads, you may think that's a bit pricey but you have to remember long range anti tank is something we lack and something else we lack Skyfire Lascanons on a turn of our choosing. Heldrakes and Riptides melt them with zero effort. Lascannon Devs have no chance. Dev Centurions can stand up to both of those, the only thing that gets rid of Centurions is melee (which you deploy far enough away from to avoid) and S10 (Vindicators are almost never seen these days, lance strikes have to not scatter off you....). Legion of the damned these guys got a massive buff in ignores cover, now they deepstrike with accuracy and annihilate that wave serpent from behind with melta goodness. Overpriced garbage. Even Sternguard are better than them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285600-red-hunters-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/#findComment-3568880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 The Shield Eternal for EW/3++ Skyfire. I'm torn on 'nilla Ravens, Mindstrike is great for screamerstars, but generic missiles are better. Stormtalons. These are *great*. Honour Guard Grav Bikes (torn between 5th Grav or an Apoth). Centurion. Both versions. With Red Hunters we can take a Skyshield, Raven and Grav Centurion, and drop the Cents off midboard first turn to let them utilise thier 24" range to pew pew more. Can't add Coteaz to them if you do this though. Edit: Are Scouts *really* worth it? Bikes as troops (even with the minimum 5, and required HQ unlock) give the Knights something they don't have (mobility and gravs) and aren't as easy to evaporate as has been said. Markerlights obliterate Scouts as well ;) Bikes with Jink also saturate the Tau targets. Do they go for Bikes, your Dev Centurion, your Shunted NDKs, etc. Shunt two NDKs forward, and they'll be the targets, to try to stop you eating the 'tides in CC with them, rather than the Grav Bikes (which can currently ruin vehicles if you like rolling 6's). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285600-red-hunters-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/#findComment-3568903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
True_Hisop Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 "Heldrakes and Riptides melt them with zero effort." should we add that suncannons and d-weapon toting titans kill marines too? i'm glad that your army has toughness 10 2+ invuns on every man but the rest of us have some basis on reality when comparing units.... As i said in another thread Armour three doesn't mean alot anymore and garbage? i think you seriously underestimate anything that you clearly do not take, i have had no problems using these units in competitive play you can have some form of originality past i'l take more purifiers... purifiers are nice but i will point out that a riptide and wraithknight both wipe them from the face of the earth... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285600-red-hunters-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/#findComment-3568916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Primary - GK HQ: Mordrak HQ: Ghost Knight HQ: OMI, TDA, Psycannon Troop: GKT x5, Psycannon Troop: GKT x5, Psycannon Heavy: NDK, H Incinerator, PT Heavy: NDK, H Incinerator, PT Inquisitorial HQ: Coteaz HQ: OMI, TDA, Psycannon, PML1 Allies - Red Hunters HQ: SM Captain, Shield, Bike HQ: Command Squad, Bikes, 5x Grav Troop: SM Bike x5, Grav x2 Fast: Stormraven Heavy: Dev Centurion x3, ML, Hurrican Bolterx2, Grav Cannon x3 Fortification; Skyshield, Ready for Takeoff Something like this. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285600-red-hunters-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/#findComment-3568919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
True_Hisop Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 yeah I could see that working definatly although in my meta a little more anti air maybe :P and i just cant bring myself to love the centurion models despite the possibilities on the board (a personal flaw i know >.<) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285600-red-hunters-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/#findComment-3568924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 If you've the points, ally in the Tyranids Vanguard Dataslate. Got to buy Cassius and a Tac Squad, but then you have the option to take up to 6 Stormtalons, that don't take up a FoC. Win! That's all Marines anti-air needs sorted. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285600-red-hunters-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/#findComment-3568949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
L30n1d4s Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 An interesting option is a Bike Chapter Master with all the fixings (AA, Shield Eternal, Burning Blade) attached to an Interceptor Squad. CM adds his Orbital Bombardment as they move up the field and tanks hits from the Interceptors. They provide additional fire support as they move (Psycannons, Psybolt SBs) and then, when they are ready to charge (probable around turn 2-3) cast Hammerhand, giving themselves +1S and the Chapter Master 5 x S8 AP2 I5 attacks on the charge (good for challenges or for tearing through an elite enemy squad before they strike back). Alternately, the Interceptors can use Warp Quake to make a "no fly zone" bubble for Deep Strikers while they move. Late in the game, the Interceptors can detach and Shunt move to contest (or claim, if they have been made scoring by Grand Strategy) an objective and the CM can charge a unit on his own and/or turbo-boost to go where he is needed most. Synergize this with some other threat units (i.e. multiple Vindicators, multiple Shunting Dreadknights, etc.) and the enemy will have significant target priority problems and you can use this unit to its maximum ability. One more thing... one the selected turn, the Chapter Master can activate his Protocol, using it himself (i.e. Interceptor with Orbital Bombardment) or buff his whole squad with it (i.e. Tank Hunter, Monster Hunter, or Hatred) for a critical phase of the battle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285600-red-hunters-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/#findComment-3569394 Share on other sites More sharing options...
True_Hisop Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 yeah i love the tooled up Master on bike for just sheer bad ass -ness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285600-red-hunters-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/#findComment-3569410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selleck Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 i just cant bring myself to love the centurion models despite the possibilities on the board (a personal flaw i know >.<) Me too Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285600-red-hunters-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/#findComment-3569575 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DinoDoc Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Primary - GK HQ: Mordrak HQ: Ghost Knight HQ: OMI, TDA, Psycannon Troop: GKT x5, Psycannon Troop: GKT x5, Psycannon Heavy: NDK, H Incinerator, PT Heavy: NDK, H Incinerator, PT Inquisitorial HQ: Coteaz HQ: OMI, TDA, Psycannon, PML1 Allies - Red Hunters HQ: SM Captain, Shield, Bike HQ: Command Squad, Bikes, 5x Grav Troop: SM Bike x5, Grav x2 Fast: Stormraven Heavy: Dev Centurion x3, ML, Hurrican Bolterx2, Grav Cannon x3 Fortification; Skyshield, Ready for Takeoff Something like this. Sadly I do not believe the SR takes a FA slot in the SM dex. Did you mean Stormtalon? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285600-red-hunters-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/#findComment-3569731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 :( Too used to it being FA in ours. So no Dev Cents in a SR in allied SM. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285600-red-hunters-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/#findComment-3569769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 15, 2014 Author Share Posted January 15, 2014 The Shield Eternal for EW/3++ Even normal storm shields on Biomancy Terminator Libby's is pretty amazing. Especially when they roll 'Endurance' or 'Iron Arm'. I'm torn on 'nilla Ravens, Mindstrike is great for screamerstars, but generic missiles are better. (shrug) I'd rather use the Heavy slot on Dev Centurions. Our Ravens are fine, psi-strikes have never been more relevant in the meta. Stormtalons. These are *abysmal*. Fixed Honour Guard Grav Bikes (torn between 5th Grav or an Apoth). What is AP2 Dev Centurions Agreed, they're pretty amazing with Red Hunter trait Edit: Are Scouts *really* worth it? They're cheap, which is what you want. Bikers are expensive and melt to Riptides and Heldrakes the same way. Scouts will get ignored. Bikes with Jink also saturate the Tau targets. Do they go for Bikes, your Dev Centurion, your Shunted NDKs, etc. Bikers are scoring and easy to remove. They'd then go for the Centurions. Dreadknights they'll sick a Crisis or Riptide onto, but they won't waste time trying to pulse you down (2+ armour and T6 is serious business, they're putting plasma and fusion into you). Bikers melt to pulse spam. Shunt two NDKs forward, and they'll be the targets, to try to stop you eating the 'tides in CC with them, rather than the Grav Bikes (which can currently ruin vehicles if you like rolling 6's). With what points? If you're taking Dev Centurions, its hard to fit even a single DK into the list. "Heldrakes and Riptides melt them with zero effort." should we add that suncannons and d-weapon toting titans kill marines too? i'm glad that your army has toughness 10 2+ invuns on every man but the rest of us have some basis on reality when comparing units.... Suncannons are terrible, d-cannons are expensive and on vulnerable platforms. Heldrakes fly onto the board and unless Intercepted then and there, they will proceed to evapourate one of your infantry units. Riptides can and will remove entire infantry units from the board at will every turn. Dev Centurions, Terminators and most vehicles are Heldrake immune. In addition, stuff like Ravens can murder Heldrakes before they become an ongoing problem. Nothing in the game is Riptide immune (thanks GW!). The best you can do is spread out (so the blast doesn't catch enough models), put a storm shield out front to tank the wounds (oh hey dirt cheap Terminator Libbys), and pray you roll well. DK's can also generally survive one Riptide, two or a Crisis team intervening generally means death though (although at that point you've easily tied up 2-3 units killing one of yours, so you're well ahead in trades). As i said in another thread Armour three doesn't mean alot anymore and garbage? i think you seriously underestimate anything that you clearly do not take, i have had no problems using these units in competitive play you can have some form of originality past i'l take more purifiers... Purifiers need Ravens or a tanky character out front taking the AP3/2 hits that melt them. And no, you can't just 'take moar', because they're expensive and further impact on your existing problem of 'I have like 4-5 units to my opponents 6-7+, cool I can't win trades'. purifiers are nice but i will point out that a riptide and wraithknight both wipe them from the face of the earth... No disagreement there. I don't deploy footslogging PA units anymore unless I know the matchup has no ranged AP3/2 I care about (ie my last match with new Nids. Which was a hilarious curbstomp, but I digress). Too used to it being FA in ours. So no Dev Cents in a SR in allied SM. Purifiers are better anyway dude. Hop out of a Knight Raven (handily in FA, out of the way of competing with DK's or Centurions) with quad psycannon or incinerator, proceed to generate a bajillion wounds on an enemy unit, then double charge (don't forget to combat squad) and double cast 'Cleansing Flame'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285600-red-hunters-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/#findComment-3569779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Stormtalons. These are *abysmal*. Fixed O_O Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285600-red-hunters-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/#findComment-3569800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 15, 2014 Author Share Posted January 15, 2014 'Hey design team, we need a new Marine Flyer Hmmm, can't give it AV10 can we? No, it's Marines, not terrible xenos. True. Kay, AV11 so Ravens are still relevant. Weapons? Eh...twin AC because hell yeah pew pew. And I guess some bad missiles....oh wait, twin lascannon! Yeah do that Anything else? Erm...so its Fast Attack...give it a cool rule to escort on from Reserve....anything we missed? How much in points? Like...150? How much are Rhinos and Landspeeders these days?' Le sigh. If they were Landspeeder prices (or around that), I'd be in favour. As is though....I'd rather just take a Raven. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285600-red-hunters-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/#findComment-3569813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 They're great with that missile launcher option. Sure, more expensive that a landspeeder, but the landspeeder dies if you look at it strangely. Talons still need to be hit on 6's. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285600-red-hunters-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/#findComment-3569843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 15, 2014 Author Share Posted January 15, 2014 True, but even incidental fire will wreck you. AV11 is AV11. This edition hates on light armour, and even AV12 needs to be Flyer tier or spammed to survive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285600-red-hunters-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/#findComment-3569861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Its AC is a turret, which means it can shoot stuff outside of its front arc. Something people seem to forget. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285600-red-hunters-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/#findComment-3569875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 16, 2014 Author Share Posted January 16, 2014 Its AC is a turret, which means it can shoot stuff outside of its front arc. Something people seem to forget. Which is cool n all, but it's still a Flying Rhino. Even without Skyfire, incidental S6/7 can and will wreck it. I love its guns, and I like its rules...I just wish GW didn't overprice it so much. Landspeeders aren't that common anyway, if it was something like 80 points with the twin-AC+twin lascannon, I'd find it workable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285600-red-hunters-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/#findComment-3570815 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Caloth Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 With the flyer rule, 80 is absurdly cheap Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285600-red-hunters-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/#findComment-3571845 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 18, 2014 Author Share Posted January 18, 2014 With the flyer rule, 80 is absurdly cheap Except anyone with brains brings Skyfire these days. Quad guns are available to every army in the game (except Tyranids, lel). Also, it's 80 with heavy bolters and twin-AC (so functionally worse than a pair of Landspeeders in the same slot and roughly the same points). With lascannons I believe it's 120 (don't have the codex in front of me). The biggest issue I have with it is that it doesn't bring enough firepower to truly be an issue. If those AC's were seperate, or if it could mount twin-las, twin AC and the substandard missiles, then I'd see a point to it. edit: Actually Stormtalons are 110 points base Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285600-red-hunters-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/#findComment-3572339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 How do we do that? (RH aside ofc) If we have a Quad gun and the enemy is flier heavy, guess what became target prioirty number one for the first turn... And you don't buy the LC for a Talon, you leave it as AC+Missiles. 125 for TL AC and Heavy 3, S7 AP4 Missile. Considering a TL AC Razorback is 75, at most, adding 35 points for a flying upgrade and TL H Bolter is a steal! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285600-red-hunters-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/#findComment-3572356 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 18, 2014 Author Share Posted January 18, 2014 If we have a Quad gun and the enemy is flier heavy, guess what became target prioirty number one for the first turn... Yeah, well if you know you're fighting a Flyer-heavy list, take PsyDreads. Mine regularly rek Fliers no problems. And you don't buy the LC for a Talon, you leave it as AC+Missiles. 125 for TL AC and Heavy 3, S7 AP4 Missile. Yeah especially in this edition, moar dakka is handy, and S7 is good enough to glance stuff to death (Vendettas and Ravens don't care but Scythes etc will die to it). So yeah, Skyhammer over lascannons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285600-red-hunters-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/#findComment-3572399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 20, 2014 Author Share Posted January 20, 2014 So I've been doing some thinking, and Centurions might have some competition. Sergeant w/twin lascannon+missile launcher, omniscope, 3 x Centurions w/twin lascannon+missile launcher (380) vs 8 x Jokaero (280) So for 100 point difference, I drop half the shots to S8 AP3 or frag blasts, but gain a lot of defensive statline and Split Fire. Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285600-red-hunters-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/#findComment-3574039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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