ChainMachete Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Hi, I'm new to this forum, but thought I would sign up because I want to start a Horus Heresy army. I currently don't have anything other than a forge world free postage voucher, so l'm looking at a clean slate here. Ideally I'd like something that, with minimal model changes, is viable and competative in 30k as well as a 40k Space Marine army. Inital points size is 1000, but I'd like to grow this to 1500 and then 2000. Word Bearers seem the obvious choice because my 40k army is Daemons and I'd like the option to ally with them once I want to play more points. But I'm not totally sold on them at this stage and other possible back-up options would be either Death Guard or Sons Of Horus. Obviously I need to buy one of the Horus Heresy books for the rules for my chosen legion, but what else do I need for a starting 1000 points army? At this this stage, I don't want too much that couldn't also represent a heresy-era army using the Space Marine codex (plus 40k-approved Imperial Armour rules). So I'm guessing no volkite or rotor weapons. And at this stage, no Gal Vorbak. I'm planning on using mostly mkIII armour with some mkII & IV mixed in for variety and will probably use the the grey colour scheme for tacticals and the red & black for elite & veterans. So please, any suggestions for an initial list would be most welcome. Thanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285641-where-to-start-with-word-bearers/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Start with lorgar Kor and Erebus so you can have some flexibility for HQ choices. Then depending on what theme you want get some small squads My personal opinion would be 2x 10 man assault squads with 2 hand flamers 2x 10 man ashen circle 2x 10 man Heavy support missiles & Autocannons 1x 10 man tactical support with rotor cannons or plasma guns And maybe some predators or javelins for heavier support Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285641-where-to-start-with-word-bearers/#findComment-3569954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Woah, slow down Jasp. He wants to start with 1k, no good to recommend a Lord of War to him. So Lorgar is out. I would discard Erebus simply due to cost. Remember, Word Bearers have to take a second, compulsory HQ. Erebus will already be 1/5 of his points at 1k, and then he has to take a second HQ on top of that. Kor Phaeron... eh. He seems kinda specialized, I'm not sure he's a good starting point. But let's get back down to what you're gonna need for your army, and how we can make sure there are parallels to 40k so your models can pull double-duty. With IA to supplement, you've actually got quite a wide selection out of the 30k list, especially with the newest IA book. For starters, two HQs. One of them has to be a Centurion or Chaplain Consul. Let's go ahead and call him a Chaplain, since you can also use a Chaplain as a cheap HQ choice in 40k, and Chaplains are fluffy for Word Bearers. Second, a Librarian. Again, can transition to 40k and is appropriate for the warp-tainted Word Bearers. You can also scale him up as you move into higher point values by filling in extra points here and there with some more Mastery Levels for him. Then, two troops choices. Without a Praetor for a RoW, we're looking at tactical squads, breachers squads, and assault squads. Assaults can't be troops in 40k, and breachers aren't in 40k, so tacticals it is. We're gonna make one of them a really big squad that you can stuff the Chaplain in, for a whole lot of zealotry. Let's add some anti-tank. The usual options here are Rapier Lasdestroyers, Sicarans, Contemptors, Heavy Support Squads, or Predators. Let's go with the Heavy Support Squad and the Predator. Your Librarian can offer buffs to either of them, depending on the situation. So: Chaplain 85 points Librarian with ML1 (prescience) 95 points 20 Man Tactical Squad 250 points 10 man Tactical Squad 150 points Heavy Support Squad with Missile Launchers 160 Predator with Lascannon Sponsons 125 And 135 points left over to actually buy wargear on your HQs, squad sergeants, etc. For 40k you can break the tactical and heavy support squads up and have some tacticals with missile launchers in them, Predator, Librarian, and Chaplain. You will, unfortunately, need both of the Heresy books. The rules for most of the army list is in Betrayal, and the rules for Word Bearers are in Massacre. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285641-where-to-start-with-word-bearers/#findComment-3569981 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 No small no slow down! Heresy Blam Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285641-where-to-start-with-word-bearers/#findComment-3570029 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChainMachete Posted January 16, 2014 Author Share Posted January 16, 2014 Woah, slow down Jasp. He wants to start with 1k, no good to recommend a Lord of War to him. So Lorgar is out. I would discard Erebus simply due to cost. Remember, Word Bearers have to take a second, compulsory HQ. Erebus will already be 1/5 of his points at 1k, and then he has to take a second HQ on top of that. Kor Phaeron... eh. He seems kinda specialized, I'm not sure he's a good starting point. But let's get back down to what you're gonna need for your army, and how we can make sure there are parallels to 40k so your models can pull double-duty. With IA to supplement, you've actually got quite a wide selection out of the 30k list, especially with the newest IA book. For starters, two HQs. One of them has to be a Centurion or Chaplain Consul. Let's go ahead and call him a Chaplain, since you can also use a Chaplain as a cheap HQ choice in 40k, and Chaplains are fluffy for Word Bearers. Second, a Librarian. Again, can transition to 40k and is appropriate for the warp-tainted Word Bearers. You can also scale him up as you move into higher point values by filling in extra points here and there with some more Mastery Levels for him. Then, two troops choices. Without a Praetor for a RoW, we're looking at tactical squads, breachers squads, and assault squads. Assaults can't be troops in 40k, and breachers aren't in 40k, so tacticals it is. We're gonna make one of them a really big squad that you can stuff the Chaplain in, for a whole lot of zealotry. Let's add some anti-tank. The usual options here are Rapier Lasdestroyers, Sicarans, Contemptors, Heavy Support Squads, or Predators. Let's go with the Heavy Support Squad and the Predator. Your Librarian can offer buffs to either of them, depending on the situation. So: Chaplain 85 points Librarian with ML1 (prescience) 95 points 20 Man Tactical Squad 250 points 10 man Tactical Squad 150 points Heavy Support Squad with Missile Launchers 160 Predator with Lascannon Sponsons 125 And 135 points left over to actually buy wargear on your HQs, squad sergeants, etc. For 40k you can break the tactical and heavy support squads up and have some tacticals with missile launchers in them, Predator, Librarian, and Chaplain. You will, unfortunately, need both of the Heresy books. The rules for most of the army list is in Betrayal, and the rules for Word Bearers are in Massacre. That's really helpful. Thank you. Looks like I won't be needing my free postage voucher for this order! There's currently no models for Word Bearers Chaplains or Librarians, so I either need to convert them or wait until something is released. There are models for Praetors, Champion, Master of Signal & Apothecaries though. Are some of these other models any good in their own right as additions to a Word Bearers army? Or are they sensible counts-as or good bases for conversions. Also standard Predator, Executioner or Infernus? The alternatives look quite fun, are great looking models & now Forge World rules are gaining more acceptance, they should still be OK for 40k as well. I'm also looking for a choice here that will scale well as my points level increases. Don't want to drop a load of cash on something that doesn't see any table time once I expand my force. Similarly for missile launcher heavies, are these still wise choices at say 2000 points? Finally what about a Rhino for the 10 man squad? Worth getting or just a waste of money once I start to increase my points and can start looking at the Land Raider variants and/or Storm Eagle? Thanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285641-where-to-start-with-word-bearers/#findComment-3570568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Get the rhino because death guard using the reaping right of war can't run so to get them where you want them you need rhinos Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285641-where-to-start-with-word-bearers/#findComment-3570571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I generally only like Praetors when they're brought along to unlock a Rite of War, but they're also probably the single most effective close combat HQ you've got on hand. I just think they're kinda expensive for a single-purpose unit that doesn't bring much in the way of force multiplication, especially since they lack Eternal Warrior. The Master of Signal and Apothecaries are both very valuable units, both can be huge force multipliers that make your army more destructive or tougher. Either is justifiable in a Legion list, but it might be hard to find equivalents for them in the SM codex (Apothecaries could only be taken in command squads in 40k, IIRC?). Legions are large enough that you can justify just about any choice in the list that you're legally allowed to take, regardless of which Legion you are playing. In spite of their innate tendencies, the Legions were well rounded enough to have fighting forces of almost all types available. Even with their penchant for bloody melee, the World Eaters still had tank battalions - and even with their preference for guile and 'diplomacy,' the Alpha Legion still had all the martial forces necessary to conquer by force of arms. As for the models, whether any of them are a good basis for conversion is only limited by your skills and your imagination. I think missile launcher heavy support is one of the more viable and expandable choices available, IMO. As you increase in points, you can add more men to the squad, add flakk missiles for anti-air, augury scanner on the sergeant, etc. Their versatility means they'll almost always have some target to shoot at - whether that's turning filthy xenos into pink mist with frag missiles, popping loyalist marines and tanks with krak, or shooting down flyers with flakk, you can always find something for them to do. Probably the only exception would be if you're facing a Pride of the Legion list with 20 terminators split between two flare shielded spartans. Theeeen they're not gonna be doing much, considering their adjusted S7 missiles won't do anything to the front armor 14 of the Spartans. IMO: Good Predator Loadouts: Predator with Lascannon Sponsons - cheap, good mix of S7AP4 and S9AP2. Predator with Heavy Bolter Sponsons - Super-cheap, much dakka, wow Predator Executioner with Heavy Bolter Sponsons - Brutal MEQ/TEQ killing power, heavy bolters for a little dakka and protection from weapon destroyed results So-so Predator Loadouts: Magna-melta + Combibolter + Machine Spirit - Machine spirit allows you to move 12 inches and fire the magna-melta, combibolter provides cheap insurance against a weapon destroyed result taking your only gun, outside of 9 inches this tank is worse than a Vindicator for about the same cost. Inside of 9 inches, its vehicle killing power trumps that of the demolisher cannon. Heavy Conversion Beamer + whatever - Needs big tables to really be effective, but long range will help keep the relatively soft Predator safe. If you have the range to be hitting with the maximum strength of the Conversion beamer, this option is good. If the enemy is within 24 inches? Not so much. Predator Executioner with Lascannon Sponsons - Lots of AP2, but it's expensive and you might want to be using the Executioner for killing infantry while the lascannons work on vehicles. Which you could arrange with a Machine Spirit upgrade, but that just makes this loadout even more expensive. Bad Predator Loadouts: Flamstorm Cannon + Heavy Flamer Sponsons - You cannot fire template weapons as snapshots. If you move at all you cannot use 2/3 of your weapons, and if you move more than 6 inches you cannot fire anything (unless you pay for machine spirit). With their short range, you're going to have to do a log of moving, and with the Predator's weak side armor, you probably won't survive long after you get into range. In my list I had meant to suggest the Predator Cannon/Lascannon sponson variant. If you magnetize it, you could swap the Predator Cannon for TLLC when you play 40k. The short range variants (magna-melta and flamestorm) really rely on having Machine Spirit to fire their template/blast weapon while moving 12 inches, which you won't have access to in 40k. I think a Predator Squad scales well as you go up in points, as you can have up to three vehicles in one heavy support slot, leaving the other slots open for you to do with as you please. However, you could move away from the Predator entirely - there are plenty of other Vehicles (such as Contemptors, Sicarans, etc) that are now legal in 40k lists through the new IA book, or you could eschew vehicles entirely for more infantry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285641-where-to-start-with-word-bearers/#findComment-3570584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 One thing you might want to bear in mind is whether your gaming circle will allow you to field your Word Bearer Legion list in games of 40k rather than simply 30k. They can't really use balance as an excuse in a world of taudar but check with them all the same Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285641-where-to-start-with-word-bearers/#findComment-3570619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChainMachete Posted January 16, 2014 Author Share Posted January 16, 2014 Yes no sure how it's going to work playing other 40k armies. There's no one in my group with a 30k army. Think some will be OK playing 30k vs 40k, others not so. Plus there's always the occasional tournament. So I want a dual purpose army. Don't mind if there's a few models that only really fit in one system, as long as it's nothing too expensive. So Master of Signal and Apothecary would be OK. But a Sicaran and three Preds wouldn't because I can't squad the Preds in 40k. Also a Sicaran and more than one Pred is something for the future once I've got my first 1000 or so points built. Can't see how useful the Champion and Praetors would be in a Word Bearers army, I was thinking of them more as bases for a conversion to the Chaplain and Librarian. I'm fairly good at doing conversions, but based on past experience, whenever I convert a model for something that doesn't currently exist, something gets released just as I've finished it. Would the non-termie Praetor model do as-is as a Consul or is there a wysiwyg-relevant difference between them? Cheers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285641-where-to-start-with-word-bearers/#findComment-3570708 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChainMachete Posted January 16, 2014 Author Share Posted January 16, 2014 I'm trying to finalise my initial order and have another question about armour marks. I was originally planning to go for mkIII armour, since that's my favourite, but with a smaller number of other marks mixed in. Colour scheme will be mostly grey with possibly just the librarian and if/when I get them, the Gal Vorbak in red/black. Chaplain in black and I'm undecided on the Apothecary (possibly just white shoulder pads rather than the whole model). Basically a colour scheme for just before Betrayal/Massacre. I'm now unsure about mixing in a few of the other armour marks since it may make the whole force look a bit disjointed. The problem is that some of the character models (Champion that I was going to convert, Master of Signal & the two Apothecaries) aren't in mkIII armour. Anyone with a mixed mark army got any thoughts on this? Does it look OK to mix armour marks? Do you think it looks better or is more representitive of how the Word Bearers would have operated at this point in the heresy? Gut feel is that mkII & mkIII may be OK, but mkIV will stand out like a sore thumb. Thanks for the help. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285641-where-to-start-with-word-bearers/#findComment-3570875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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