How often do you NOT take a banner and why?

[SvenONE]

Talking specifically about the dev banner, but fortitude can apply as well.  Retribution is so situational a discussion on it would be quite short and not worth our time!

 

I'm going to exclude the most obvious of a DW-heavy army, but even then lists such as March's include landraiders that can potentially benefit.  The minimum investment in a 1500 point list is a little over 10% of your total list budget, slightly higher if you include an Apothecary.

 

Lowest point games really stand out was a place to not bring it, 750 is really steep, 1000 tight budget, 1250 is pushing it, but all of these can be effective on bikes (bearing in mind that it's a bike command squad which also has a RWGL), though a 750 list with Sammael and a banner probably can't make a legal list.

 

I can't think of a 1500 point game in which I DIDN'T take it.  It comes with the re-roll for failed LD checks and a +1 to combat (if the banner is in there as well), so it isn't limited to just its salvo.  Even 1 squad of tacticals can provide a solid amount of supporting fire or just ripping bullets into an objective holding unit.

 

I think it's one of the best things this codex has to offer when setting it apart from the other codices, a gimmick maybe, but it still gives us a heck of a lot more [bolter] firepower, which is one of the reasons I imagine we don't have access to something like a thunderfire cannon (but there's always allies).  I would almost go as far as asking the question, if you aren't taking a banner - why are you playing Dark Angels? (fluff/model reasons excluded).

 

So what kind of lists do you not take a banner? Or alternatively, what kind of lists do you bring it along and consider it a poor investment.

[Cactus]

The only times I don't use a banner (Fortitiude's my favourite) are when I can't find the 100+ points for a squad to carry it. Those instances are likely to decline when I build some more veteran models with better weapon options.

[Brother dean]

I have played the majority of my games without one...  Mostly because I dont have one built/painted (yes I am one of those) but I have really only played greenwing for one tourny this edition and that is the three games I used the BoD.  The rest of my games have been Raven/Deathwing and I didnt untill last month have enough BKs to run a command squad...  

 

It and a command squad are in process right now.

[Gillyfish]

I'm similar to brother dean. I don't have a command squad (DW excepted) painted, so when I eventually play some 6th ed games I will probably have a list without one. I do have the models for a command squad (two squads in fact), but I have decided how they should be equipped yet. I am open to suggestions, but that is perhaps a topic for another thread!

[Larhendiel]

For me banner of devastation is synonim of ravenwing/deathwing with land raiders armies
Banner of fortitude is a synonim of deathwing assault army
 

When it comes to ravenwing I am very protective for my banner, I put it on aphothecary, add techmarine with power field generator in case of ap3 flamers, and I add darkshroud so they all can have 2+ cover in case of massed dakka (yes I don't shoot with this unit early int the game, I run). In 1.5k without escalations, this bike mobile army can outshoot anything

 

When I take deathwing my command ssquad carries storm shields, all of them do, sits tight in a land raider redeemer or just plain landraider, techmarine with PFG stays behind them, then I drop as many units of deathwing as I can, I go for numbers not weapons with them, but two of the units almost always are knights. These are the most durable troops ever, and 2 passed FNP tests are enough to pay back for taking the banner!

 

Not once I used any other banner but I can see that they can be very usefull as well

[Darkangeldentist]

I have only used a banner once (fortitude) and that was part of an apocalypse game. Simple reasons, I don't find I field command squads all that often and when I do they've been kept on a tight points budget.

 

They are definitely worth the points but my games tend to be 1500pts where a command squad and banner can be a substantial portion of the list. Not always but I tend to feel that making the incentive to remove them greater isn't always helpful. This applies to all my different lists for Dark angels. I don't even field a command squad for Deathwing, partly because my 1500pt deathwing list just couldn't stretch that far. Three small terminator squads and pair of regular land raiders were very fun to put on the table and quite effective but it ate all the points. My ravenwing lists haven't seen anything like as much table time as I would like but even though I do take command squads the decision to give them a banner is a tough one. It's an expensive fragile unit to begin with and I like to field as many models as I can in different squads to let me split opponents attention in as many different directions as possible. Regular greenwing and mixed lists I tend not to take a command squad, even though it has arguably the most benefit for them I have not found myself depending on a banner to give me an edge.

 

It's a bit odd because I was originally really looking forward to taking the devastation banner with Ravenwing but it's yet to hit the table.

[Brother dean]

DADentist said it best.. In the points levels I have been running those points are better spent on more scoring units..

[Pbenner]

I take one, ALWAYS, and it's always fortitude, unless the game is small enough to not have the points.  

 

I need to finish the modeling and painting for my Pyro banner.

 

Paul

[Brother Moridius]

I have yet to use a banner, most of my games are pretty friendly and Id rather not destroy my opponent in one turn of shooting (that somehow sounds wrong...). I think because of that I havent actually painted or even built one yet.

 

I have done several tournaments running a mix of green/black and have always been toward the top in points so I dont feel like we need it.

 

But just for fun to contradict myself I have played around with min/max lists like 50 tacticals + BoD supported by devs and things like that, never fielded it though. Im sure one day I will start using the banners and will be hooked, until then Im glad you guys are enjoying them.

 

M

[JJD]

This is quite an interesting topic for me as I have a crusader and command squad waiting to be built and painted. I was wondering how you load out your command squads. I'm thinking keep the squad cheap with no upgrades as it will mostly sit in the crusader may be with an apothecary but I'd like to hear your opinions.

[Cactus]

I can see some value in spending 40 points on combi-plasma as well, but it's the sort of thing I would cut if points were tight.

[march10k]

It's funny this should come up right at this moment...I just moved into pbenner's area, where the metagame is different enough that I'm working on a near-total redesign of my list.  The "new" version will be more like my 5th edition list, fully mechanized deathwing.  Now, with three crusaders in the list, not fielding a dakkapole is crazy, it would give them 88 twinlinked shots at 24", effectively 30"!  Compared to the wimpy 34 shots that they'd otherwise have, it's a no-brainer.  I'd love to have the banner carried by a RWCS that hangs out in back with the PFG librarian, but the points just aren't there at 1850.  The solution of course is to promote one of the three scoring squads inside the tanks to a non-scoring DWCS.  The loss of 1/3 of my scoring units is extremely painful, but not as painful as giving up 54 twinlinked boltgun shots!  26 shots per tank transport is better than the stupid "I shoot my scatterlaser first so all 15 or so of my S6/7 shots are twinlinked" wave serpent... 

[Pbenner]

Unless you play Big Guns...

[SvenONE]

I have to say, a little surprised that it seems a good number of people don't take a banner.  I'll be honest that prior to me using a banner I had much more difficulty in games, it's certainly a way to bring you up a level, some WOULD call it a crutch, but I've had games where it hasn't been as game changing as it sounds, they are still bolter shots.  As it is, there is only a 10% chance of causing an unsaved wound vs a MEQ, 5% vs a TEQ.  In a 10 man all bolter squad, you've only for 4 potential unsaved wounds per round of shooting.  You're still theoretically going to need 3 squads to take down a MEQ squad outright.  I've never done 3 LRCs, but it would probably like rolling like Orks.

 

Also, March, don't forget you can take a regular power armor command squad and put them in one of those land raiders for a budget use.  I'd agree that it's difficult to find an extra bit of points in a list that really doesn't have room for potentially wasteful things.  A command squad + banner most likely eats into your wargear.  I don't see how you get the math for 88 though (6 x 4) x 3 = 72? where's the extra 16 from?

 

At first I wasn't using the banner, but I can't really think of a game in the last 6-8 months that I didn't use it.  Painting the command squad was a lot of fun also, so I would really recommend painting your command squads!

 

The cost and opportunity cost of not having a scoring unit I can totally understand.  I've been running a DW banner squad and while it's done me a lot of good, when it DOES go down or it fails 3 saves in 4 wounds, it's hard to see 310 points go down like that.

 

Brother Moridius, what does that list of yours look like that doesn't use the banner?  For the cost of a PA/RW command squad, I can understand how you'd want to get an extra squad outright (after all it doesn't increase our wounds by 4!)

[twopounder]

My hesitation is that command squads tend to be fragile. Only 5 members and everything aims at them as soon as your opponent realizes what the banner does. I've used the dakka banner before, and it can be fun. But if the banner goes down, you're out all of your points and the extra fire power you were depending on.

[CovertToaster]

 

My hesitation is that command squads tend to be fragile. Only 5 members and everything aims at them as soon as your opponent realizes what the banner does. I've used the dakka banner before, and it can be fun. But if the banner goes down, you're out all of your points and the extra fire power you were depending on.

This is why I'm turning away from banners because once your opponent knows what is going on they just look for an oppourtunity to wipe the squad out. If you're always forced into RWCS or DWCS for survivability then you are tied into always using a bike or TDA IC which may not ever be a part of your initial strategy. Greenwing command squads very quickly become point sinks as even with an apothecary any krak missile equivalent bypasses both the armour and FNP saves and adding storm shields to avoid this nearly doubles the cost of the squad.

I don't think that I would ever take a greenwing command squad not even for a static BoD gunline where I might be able to use enough bubblewrap to keep them alive longer. I'm also getting sick of even thinking about banners as they require lists to be built around them which places limitations on unit selection and strategy even though I have considered the interaction of the BoF and BK's since the movement, T5, and plasma talons would make them a handy deathstar unit.

[twopounder]

 

My hesitation is that command squads tend to be fragile. Only 5 members and everything aims at them as soon as your opponent realizes what the banner does. I've used the dakka banner before, and it can be fun. But if the banner goes down, you're out all of your points and the extra fire power you were depending on.

 

This is why I'm turning away from banners because once your opponent knows what is going on they just look for an oppourtunity to wipe the squad out. If you're always forced into RWCS or DWCS for survivability then you are tied into always using a bike or TDA IC which may not ever be a part of your initial strategy. Greenwing command squads very quickly become point sinks as even with an apothecary any krak missile equivalent bypasses both the armour and FNP saves and adding storm shields to avoid this nearly doubles the cost of the squad.

 

I don't think that I would ever take a greenwing command squad not even for a static BoD gunline where I might be able to use enough bubblewrap to keep them alive longer. I'm also getting sick of even thinking about banners as they require lists to be built around them which places limitations on unit selection and strategy even though I have considered the interaction of the BoF and BK's since the movement, T5, and plasma talons would make them a handy deathstar unit.

 

Well, you can throw out some fun lists that are just random and not expect to win. 3 crusaders with a dakka banner in the middle one is always funny. It's about 1000 points though, so it's a lot of eggs in a short ranged basket. It's not a tournament sound list (so many things in the game will eat that alive) but it can be entertaining nonetheless.

 

But I agree, I don't like building lists around a single piece of wargear.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Greenwing: I decided to drop thebanner because of several reasons:

 Even in 1850 points I find spending around 200+ points on a fragile 5 man unit is too much even with the bonus. In my metagame there are some many thing that can go wrong and they usually do... It's difficult to get all those tacticals under the magic 6" of teh banner and still provide them wth cover, and protect the banner at same time.. then come a couple of helldrakes or whatever and blow them away. in the meantime the opponent's army keeps at arms lenght of the bolters. If I press forward then salvo is reduced, cover is even more difficult to come by and the command squad hs to go along, making them obvious targets. So basically in order to capitalise a good stuff I to be limited to many many variables. I aplaude thos that can make the banner work in a Green army, but I am not one of those people.

 

Deathwing: Due to lack of scoring units it's a toss between the Knights and the Command squad... I feel knights bring more stuff to teh table, so , no rroms for command squad with banner.

 

 

Now when I field ravenwing then, there's absolutely no reason not to field a banner because bikes have  all jink save and the banner is included inside an already kick ass unit.

[Cactus]

I've used a Deathwing command squad with the Standard of Fortitude in a 1500pt army made up mostly of tactical squads. With a heavy weapon, champion and two or three storm shields they're not cheap but they are resilient and make an effective counter assault unit.

[Master Avoghai]

I tend to think like Luc'

 

DW can be built around a DWCS with TH/SS in lieu of a knights squad. But it raises the global cost. I think you can find argument for both.

RW is quasi compulsory for dakka banner as it allows you to compensate your lack of models (and therefore your firepower).

 

Greenwing... Well only my 2000pts list contains a command squad with deva. Actually at 1850, I prefer playing more marines (4 tactical, 2 assault one deva) . The rationnal is that I can adapt my deployment and my movements and I'm not "obliged" to keep all my squad within 6". Finally, my firepower tends to be identical as I can be in range more easily.

 

Over 2000pts, I have enough points to create a 6" bubble in my deployment zone AND buy mobile units to cover the rest of the table.

[Brother dean]

Ravenwing makes the moat sense for a BoD. Tons of bolters, Relentless and salvo and you are already in a bubble because of the Dark shroud

[Aegnor]

Just on that - does Relentless mean that the bolters always count as not moving under the Salvo rules?

[SvenONE]

Just on that - does Relentless mean that the bolters always count as not moving under the Salvo rules?

 

correct, salvo/heavy are fired normally.  Terminators also have this but the banner doesn't affect them.  Which is funny because a storm bolter is two bolters slap together while a hurricane bolter is two twin-linked bolters.  Honestly I think in this edition storm bolters being affected would be a good way to make pure DW armies fun to play and competitive.

[twopounder]

 

Just on that - does Relentless mean that the bolters always count as not moving under the Salvo rules?

 

correct, salvo/heavy are fired normally.  Terminators also have this but the banner doesn't affect them.  Which is funny because a storm bolter is two bolters slap together while a hurricane bolter is two twin-linked bolters.  Honestly I think in this edition storm bolters being affected would be a good way to make pure DW armies fun to play and competitive.

 

Well, any model that can take a combi-bolter can use the rule. There just aren't enough of those models to really make a difference.

[CovertToaster]

 

 

Just on that - does Relentless mean that the bolters always count as not moving under the Salvo rules?

 

correct, salvo/heavy are fired normally.  Terminators also have this but the banner doesn't affect them.  Which is funny because a storm bolter is two bolters slap together while a hurricane bolter is two twin-linked bolters.  Honestly I think in this edition storm bolters being affected would be a good way to make pure DW armies fun to play and competitive.

 

Well, any model that can take a combi-bolter can use the rule. There just aren't enough of those models to really make a difference.

 

It's a pity that CT:IF affects storm bolters but the BoD does not. Looks like we get the shaft again!