How often do you NOT take a banner and why?

[march10k]

 

I have to say, a little surprised that it seems a good number of people don't take a banner.  I'll be honest that prior to me using a banner I had much more difficulty in games, it's certainly a way to bring you up a level, some WOULD call it a crutch, but I've had games where it hasn't been as game changing as it sounds, they are still bolter shots.  As it is, there is only a 10% chance of causing an unsaved wound vs a MEQ, 5% vs a TEQ.  In a 10 man all bolter squad, you've only for 4 potential unsaved wounds per round of shooting. 

 

Quiz time, boys and girls!  What does a boltgun need to wound a wraithknight?  Oh, right, it can't.  Well, actually, it can, on a 6, after the wraithknight gets hit with a rad grenade.  Still, hardly much of a threat!  And forget about vehicles.  72 twinlinked boltgun shots is a scary thing...unless bolters can't hurt you.

 

 

 

 

I don't see how you get the math for 88 though (6 x 4) x 3 = 72? where's the extra 16 from?

 

 

Whoops.  84.  The other 12 are from the assault cannons.

 

Just on that - does Relentless mean that the bolters always count as not moving under the Salvo rules?

 

correct, salvo/heavy are fired normally.  Terminators also have this but the banner doesn't affect them.  Which is funny because a storm bolter is two bolters slap together while a hurricane bolter is two twin-linked bolters.  Honestly I think in this edition storm bolters being affected would be a good way to make pure DW armies fun to play and competitive.

correction...the hurribolter is THREE twinliniked boltguns!

[Millicant]

I have yet to use any of the Sacred Banners.  I'm just not worthy enough I guess...

 

In all seriousness, there are a few reasons.  Primary being that I don't have one modeled/painted yet!  I'm okay with some proxies in my army, but only very similar stuff (ie that meltagun is a plasmagun kind of thing).  Other people it doesn't bother me as much (before anybody gets upset) but I'm striving for a fully painted WYSIWYG army and excessive proxies kill my drive to model paint things that I don't have yet!

 

Second reason is an echo of what some others have already said - I don't relish the idea of building my whole list around a single piece of wargear.  I like to build very fluffy and flexible lists.  And since it's such a huge point sink for a command squad and banner, it's hard to justify it without playing a specific company list (ie 1st, 2nd, etc).  

 

I will try them out eventually.  I'm sure I will have fun with them - I just don't feel that they are a "must have" or that I can't play a fun game without them.  

[Interrogator Stobz]

I've never liked the idea of bringing a 10,000 year old relic to a gunfight, seems wrong on many levels. Most of my lists do without a banner for that reason. I will use the BoD or BoF on RWCS on occasion and the same very rarely on DWCS. I will only do either against specific enemies and not in an all comers list.

[Master Avoghai]

I've never liked the idea of bringing a 10,000 year old relic to a gunfight, seems wrong on many levels. Most of my lists do without a banner for that reason. I will use the BoD or BoF on RWCS on occasion and the same very rarely on DWCS. I will only do either against specific enemies and not in an all comers list.

So am I right to assume you never field a mass of redemption either?

[Interrogator Stobz]

Sorry, something missing in the translation, mass of redemption?

[Darkangeldentist]

I suspect Master Avoghai was referring to the Mace of Redemption chapter relic.

[Larhendiel]

Mace is overpriced unfortunately like all other of our relics.
I consider taking mace only if I am certain I will face chaos

[Interrogator Stobz]

Ah yes of course, I regularly take it. But it is meant for battle and isn't made up of cloth, to me Standards, Banners, Flags and Colours are ceremonial not operational. I hope that is a bit clearer :)

[march10k]

That's why we have chapter serfs...to patch the holes after each fight!  ;)

[Master Avoghai]

Ah yes of course, I regularly take it. But it is meant for battle and isn't made up of cloth, to me Standards, Banners, Flags and Colours are ceremonial not operational. I hope that is a bit clearer :)

Like march10k says : we have people to repair it and I suspect the banners to be made in a fire-retardant material (and you have to take into consideration that 40k has a "magic" side... ).

To me the risk to see the banner destroyed or taken is equivalent to the risk of seeing the Mace being cut by an ork power claw or stolen after the death of its bearer.

 

Mace is overpriced unfortunately like all other of our relics.

I consider taking mace only if I am certain I will face chaos

You're maybe the 1st and only to say that... Everybody here tend to consider that the Mace is an automatic choice for a CC character (int. chappy mostly).

Being "only" AP3 is not a big deal against most of the army (do you consider the helldrake flamer weak being only S6AP3?). Most of your opponents will be crushed, the only problem would be a SM captain with artificer armour... But most of the time he'll have a storm shield too so having a PA2 weapon won't make a huge difference.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I appreciate your view brother, I still hold to mine however as I feel that banners of any description have no place on the battlefield. Weird circumstances are the 'norm' in 40k though so banners show up all the time for no practical reason (except that "magical" one) :P

Despite my Command Sqd in my blog having a banner, I generally use a Greenwing CS as a plasma gun spam unit and they leave even the Company Banner in the vault.

[SvenONE]

Again, it's interesting to see the varying viewpoints of the Devastation banner outside of the Bike or LRC application which we all seem to agree are the 2 best uses for it. I think it's a largely feast or famine approach: "If I'm going to bring it, then I need bring tons of tacs to go with it." I'm absolutely presuming here, but I think the original intention of the design team was to give us the banner as a supplement rather than a cornerstone. From what I can gather from feedback here, it's that cornerstone approach that makes us hesitant in fielding a GW-Devastation list. Why invest all of those points, talking about multiple tactical squads here as well, when it takes 5 1s or 2s (or failed cover saves) to lose that force multiplier? Not to mention March's point of the fact that boltguns, despite the volume don't hurt a lot of things that show up in the game, and if they do it's a very low chance that even numbers may not be able to outdo.

 

One of the biggest issues with a banner-centric army is that it creates an army that's basically tarpitting itself. You can't move else you completely negate the bonus you invested in. This is why we don't seem to have a problem paying premium price on a low model count army (bikes). But again, I don't think we should be looking at it as a cornerstone. A power armor command squad with banner, for slightly more than a regular tactical squad, puts out the same amount of boltgun shots (provided it didn't move) as a 2 full boltgun wielding tactical squads, more so if you consider the fact most 10 man tactical squads usually have special/heavy setup.

 

Again I think that, if our fluff is anything to go by, the designers had intended our lists to be a mix of the entire codex. In fact I think it's a way to offset the cost of our HQs to make bikes/terminators scoring. Save 140 points by not bringing an extra tactical squad so we can bring Belial or Sammael. Without a doubt I still think the best application is a regular CS inside a landraider, that's probably the most durable 24 twinlinked boltgun shots in the entire system.

[Gillyfish]

Of course the Banner of Devastation should also be useful in a list that is designed to have a static element - perhaps a greenwing firebase supplemented by a hard hitting assault element (essentially performing a refused flank) - perhaps that would consist of RW and/or DW. It sounds like if you're going to take it, you really need to plan for it.

[march10k]

the dakkapole seems to me to work well in all three flavors. Ravenwing are relentless, so they don't suffer from the move-or-shoot problem. The banner is a godsend to deathwing, making crusaders throw off 28 shots each at an effective 30" while delivering your thundernators to the fight.

 

And in a greenwing list, you don't have to spam static tactical squads to make it worth taking. Even a plas/plas squad with a bp/ps sergeant will pump out 28 boltgun shots at 24". Three of those plus three drop podding tactical squads (with flamer or melta, plus bp/ps sergeant, and you're set. 84 boltgun shots from the static element fully justify the banner's inclusion. Throw the banner in a crusader for another 24+4 twinlinked shots, and you not only make the command squad harder to kill, you widen the bubble. Station your obligatory prescience/pfg libby/devs next door, and the crusader gets the pfg benefit, too! Yes, it all fits into 1850.

[IndigoJack]

I rarely use them, but for me it's a matter of points. I play pure DW, so it's either DWCS or DWKs, and the knights haven't consistently let me down enough to consider it worth it. That said, maybe after I get a 3rd LRC I'll give the dev banner a whirl for funsies.

[Alvena]

The last 2 games i have played DA, i have played with the dakka pole, and i have won. Truly this banner was the game changing (breaking?) item ...

 

But i'm seriously considering to go without for my next games, as my opponent (and good friend) who face it didn't get an enjoyable game  ... Too much dakka for him.

 

i ll try softer list with some other banner.

 

But i think i will always go for one kind of banner as they participate to create strategies that relies on synergies and force multipliers.

 

just  my 2 pence ;-)

[andrewclark85]

I stopped using my banner of Dev because people cry and I consider it broken. Put a comp master with artificer armour and lions roar add him to a command squad with 5 bolters 3 storm shields apothecary and banner. The company master with look out sir and 3 storm shields make a very difficult unit to kill and make up to 3 tak squads have game breaking firepower

 

Every sarge with a combination flamer even over watch with this banner can be brutal

[Tanhausen]

Never gotten to use it...simply can't fit a command squad.

[Dark Haven]

My Company will never take the field without a Banner, it wouldn't be proper conduct as befitting the 1st Legion. The Company Master always has his Company Standard unless someone from Higher enters the field like Ezekial or Belial. At games of 2.5k and higher I play Azrael and thus always have a Sacred Standard. 3k and higher mandates the Chapter Banner.

 

My last games was 4k of DA (Mine, a mix of Greenwing and Deathwing), 4k of Space Wolves and 4k of Ultramarines versus 12k of Tyranids. Calgar, Logan and Azrael were all present. There was ridgeline that overlooked a strategic pass, so I volunteered to hold the line. Azrael planted the Dakka Pole and awaited the swarm. Logan wth 30 Wolf Guard took the fight to the Nid's in the back field while Calgar with Cassius led 30 sternguard, 50 tacticals and 3 vindi's in a spearhead attack to kill the Swarm Lord. Calgar punched his way through two carnifex's to try and get to the Swarm Lord, but it was my storm of bolter fire that ultimately got him a path to the Swarm Lord. The Swarm Lord charged him with a tyrant guard, who died to Chaplin Cassius's overwatch. Calgar went toe to toe with the swarm lord and eventually killed him.

 

The dakka pole created an 18" bubble of death that no tyranid (gaunt or tyrannofex) could enter and survive. It was because of this that he Dark Angels held back 7k of Tyranids with 60 tacticals and 20 devastators. Without this secure area, Belial's drop with 20 deathwing would not have been successful in slaying two hive tyrants off the objective and rescuing Grimnar who had gotten in over his head (fighting 40 genestealers and 2 hive tyrants will do that, even to that crusty ol' Wolf). 

 

The Dakka pole is what won us the game, however it did mean that my green wing was afraid to move. However, they ultimately did not have to because the Deathwing acted as my forward element.  Calgar would never have made it through the wall of bodies to kill the Swarm lord without my dakka pole, nor would I have been able to clear a path for Belial to land and save Grimnar. 

 

It was pretty awesome seeing the DA plant their banner and not take one step back against hundreds of bugs. And yes, before anyone asks since Logan and Azrael were on the field we did do a Lion and the Wolf duel. Azrael took first blood and thus preserved the honor of the 1st Legion. 

 

Banners work IMO when you're playing 1750+ AND you're taking a secondary element to support them. I prefer to have DW support my Greenwing but that's just the Fluff bunny side of me coming out. 

[captain sox]

March 10K I have a question about the SoD in a LRC... is the 6" distance measured from the hull of the vehicle containing the banner? if so, then I imagine your running your Crusaders side by side by side? Just mere curiosity. I actually don't have any vehicles with treads in my army (probably a good reason why I rarely win games).  I'm considering getting a few Raiders and Rhino chassis vehicles because the Lion is tired of me losing...

 

As for the banners, I ran the Fortitude banner in my 1500pt Deathwing Army and I kept track of how many saves it  made vs failures.  It provided 4 saves vs 8 failed FNP. When I combine the banner with the command squad it ran with it totalled up to around 340 pts for a 5 man squad.  So to me, I didn't really find it worthwhile. I think that 340 pts could've been better spent on support for my scoring units.

 

When you consider how many points you are spending on the squad and the banner, whether it Devastation or Fortitude, and the possibilities of Precision Shots (because that banner will be the focus of fire) and volume of fire the command squad will get, I just don't think it's worth it... But I have yet to win with this new Codex (aside from kill teams) so take my opinion for what it's worth. :)