We now have a drop pod

[daveNYC]

That'd be in the range of 800 points, including the payload.

[Valaskjalf]

What I dont understand is, if the thing comes in as a flyer in hover mode, why do we need to roll for scatter when it comes in? Its like theyve taken all the drawbacks from both a flyer and a drop pod and slapped a 260pt tag on it. So stupid.

[Kol Saresk]

Because its a pod meant to travel from one ship to another that is being used to land, on solid ground. That's why the heatblast is "dissipated". That's why it doesn't have any armor-killing weapons. It is meant to pierce hull, dump cargo and then return cargo. Everything else is secondary.

 

It is also meant to serve as a centerpiece model. This thing is absolutely huge. Could you imagine three of these on the same table, flying around? I don't want to. This isn't meant to be a Heldrake replacement and it isn't meant to be an offensive weapon. It is a transport with defensive capabilities that can be used offensively.

 

That is its purpose. And honestly, e-mail Forgeworld if you feel so strong about it. It is in the experimental phase for a reason, so they can get feedback. Give them feedback.

[Valaskjalf]

Ahh I see...an AV12 flyer in hover-mode able to be exploded by on Plasma shot on turn 1...Defensive capabilities indeed.

[the jeske]

A few tides can be center pice models . they shape the game and some of them are up and alive through the whole game . WK can be center pice models , they aren't super resilient , but it does take some time to remove.

 

A 400+ model that gets removed by a skyfire/interceptor unit/fortification , before it even actualy lands , can hardly be called that.

[Valaskjalf]

Think Im totally going to send them some feedback. We didnt ask for some super expensive flyer pod - a 50pt regular drop pod with a couple of spikes to make it chaosy would have sufficed.

[Sception]

This may be reaching a bit, but if the Kharybdis comes in turn 1, it gets a 5+ Jink save (as a Skimmer, for moving). If you can cast Invisibilty on it with Ahrimn or a Chaos Sorceror, then it becomes an AV 12 Vehicle with 5 HPs and a 2+ cover save, giving it a strong chance of surviving until turn 2, when it can deliver its 10 Terminators/20 Posessed SM/20 Khorne Bezerkers into enemy battle-lines.

I thought blessings were cast before units arriving from reserve appeared? I could be wrong. Definitely cast before the caster moves, so that will restrict your deep strike options, especially since you'd have to account for scatter.

 

Also way too expensive.

[Valaskjalf]

 

This may be reaching a bit, but if the Kharybdis comes in turn 1, it gets a 5+ Jink save (as a Skimmer, for moving). If you can cast Invisibilty on it with Ahrimn or a Chaos Sorceror, then it becomes an AV 12 Vehicle with 5 HPs and a 2+ cover save, giving it a strong chance of surviving until turn 2, when it can deliver its 10 Terminators/20 Posessed SM/20 Khorne Bezerkers into enemy battle-lines.

I thought blessings were cast before units arriving from reserve appeared? I could be wrong. Definitely cast before the caster moves, so that will restrict your deep strike options, especially since you'd have to account for scatter.

 

Also way too expensive.

Hmm tricky one, I think you're right however. Blessings are cast at the start of the Psyker's movement phase, and Reserves come in at the start of turn 2, which is the movement phase. Which one comes first? If the Psyker is part of the unit in the Drop Pod then he can cast Invisibility (if he gets it) regardless of where the pod scatters to.

 

Its expensive, but I run a LV3 Psyker anyway, so 50% chance to hit invisibility. Not great odds and it is expensive....Nothing getting past the Pod being too expensive though.

[Sception]

Slightly less than 50%, actually.

[Valaskjalf]

Slightly less than 50%, actually.

3/6 chance? last time I was in school that was 50%

[Sception]

sorry, forgot that duplicate powers are rerolled. As long as you keep all your rolls, rerolled duplicates makes three tries 50%. You can't trade any powers for the primeris unless you already got the power you want, though, or your chances drop to ever-so-slightly below 50%, for the same reason that you don't have a 50% chance of rolling a 5 when you roll 3d6 without rerolled doubles, or a 100% chance of rolling a 5 on 6d6 without rerolled doubles.

 

Of course, by the time you're considering trades for primeris, your chances are no longer 50%, they're either 100% because you already got it, or considerably less than that, because you are down one or more rolls. Still, trading for primeris lowers your odds on subsequent rolls, and if you typically trade some powers for shriek before you've rolled invis, then your chances in general are ever so slightly less than 50%.

[Valaskjalf]

Alright, well back to the point Im making and ASSUMING I do get invisibility....it's cast on the Psyker's movement phase and the Reserves also come in at the movement phase. Does that mean that, if the Psyker (with Invisibility as a power) is inside the Drop Pod that he will be able to Cast it in his movement phase and then the Drop Pod comes in (with Invisibility) and you then roll for the scatter?

 

Or the drop pod lands, the Psyker then casts Invisibility after the DP has scattered.

[disease]

I really don't think it will sell well under current guise, not when you compare to alternatives avaliable to chaos and HH

 

Chaos:

Storm eagle

Spartan

Land raider godhammer

 

 

HH:

 

Stormeagle

Spartan

Loads of land raiders

Drop pod spam

Caestus assult ram

[Sception]

Alright, well back to the point Im making and ASSUMING I do get invisibility....it's cast on the Psyker's movement phase and the Reserves also come in at the movement phase. Does that mean that, if the Psyker (with Invisibility as a power) is inside the Drop Pod that he will be able to Cast it in his movement phase and then the Drop Pod comes in (with Invisibility) and you then roll for the scatter?

 

Or the drop pod lands, the Psyker then casts Invisibility after the DP has scattered.

 

The way I'm reading, both arriving from reserves and using Primaris happen at the same time (since 'start of player turn' and 'start of movement phase' are the same thing), so unless I'm mistaken, players should be able to choose the order of those events on their turns, allowing you to use invis on arriving claws, provided you have it, yes.

 

But why bother?  That's a lot of points on something you'll only be able to try to do half the time, and against any of the armies with real psychic defenses, success will be far from guaranteed, even with a familiar, and that's a ridiculous quantity of points to risk on such a maneuver.

 

And what do you get out of it?  Some protection for the squad inside, and the change to blow the flame attack?  Is the flame attack really going to be better than just disembarking and shooting with the unit inside?

 

 

 

I sent an email to FW with the following thoughts:

 

 

1) thank you for the inertial guidance system mitigating deep strike scatter to prevent mishaps from landing on terrain or models.  The current dreadclaw rules are all but unusable for lack of such an ability.

 

2) as written, it seems to not only count as a drop pod for the 'drop pod assault' rule, but actually give that rule to Chaos Space Marine armies that use it, even though they didn't have it before.  Is that intended?

 

3) it has a machine spirit rule allowing it to fire its missiles at different targets.  Machine spirit rules are usually dropped from CSM versions of other Legion vehicles, is the CSM Kharybdis meant to keep them?  On the subject of chaosification, the option to grab some CSM upgrades - particularly dirge casters or possession - for the CSM version would be cool.

 

4) it seems to be intended to deep strike, then wait around for a turn using its heat blast, before deploying its unit in the following turn.  However, even with 5 hull points, with only armor 12 it seems way too vulnerable to make this strategy viable.  If it's meant to keep the squad inside, then AV12 just seems too low, especially considering the cost of both the pod itself and the cost of the large units it seems meant to deliver.  However, if you deploy immediately, then you don't get to use the heat blast, assault transport, or frag launcher rules.

 

5) it seems WAY too expensive, points-wise.  All its special rules don't really amount to all that much, and the ability to move another unit around after deploying seems way overvalued, even more so than with the dreadclaw (I don't think I've ever seen a transport in 40k pick up another unit after delivering the one it started with, the games just don't last long enough for that to be a meaningful option).  And by too expensive I mean like maybe double the appropriate points cost.  As is I'd have a hard time justifying 120 points for a Kharybdis in my lists, let alone the 260 its currently weighing in at.  Even if you increased its armor to 13, such that it might actually be feasible to use most of its rules, it still seems like it would be as much as 80 or even 100 points too much.

 

6) The heat blast isn't bad as is, I killed a lot of gaunts with it, but neither does it seem all that impressive compared to just disembarking and shooting with unit inside, and it doesn't exactly feel evocative of the idea of melta-cutters as something meant to cut through ship armor.  Maybe something higher strength/lower ap, even if with a smaller radius?  Or actually having the melta rule? I don't know, this is a relatively minor quibble compared to the above, more thematic than something that would stop me from using the Kharybdis.

 

 

Summary: at the moment, I would not use a Kharybdis as it is in regular games, and thus cannot justify purchasing one.

[Valaskjalf]

 

Alright, well back to the point Im making and ASSUMING I do get invisibility....it's cast on the Psyker's movement phase and the Reserves also come in at the movement phase. Does that mean that, if the Psyker (with Invisibility as a power) is inside the Drop Pod that he will be able to Cast it in his movement phase and then the Drop Pod comes in (with Invisibility) and you then roll for the scatter?

 

Or the drop pod lands, the Psyker then casts Invisibility after the DP has scattered.

 

The way I'm reading, both arriving from reserves and using Primaris happen at the same time (since 'start of player turn' and 'start of movement phase' are the same thing), so unless I'm mistaken, players should be able to choose the order of those events on their turns, allowing you to use invis on arriving claws, provided you have it, yes.

 

But why bother?  That's a lot of points on something you'll only be able to try to do half the time, and against any of the armies with real psychic defenses, success will be far from guaranteed, even with a familiar, and that's a ridiculous quantity of points to risk on such a maneuver.

 

And what do you get out of it?  Some protection for the squad inside, and the change to blow the flame attack?  Is the flame attack really going to be better than just disembarking and shooting with the unit inside?

 

 

 

I sent an email to FW with the following thoughts:

 

 

>1) thank you for the inertial guidance system mitigating deep strike scatter to prevent mishaps from landing on terrain or models.  The current dreadclaw rules are all but unusable for lack of such an ability.

 

2) as written, it seems to not only count as a drop pod for the 'drop pod assault' rule, but actually give that rule to Chaos Space Marine armies that use it, even though they didn't have it before.  Is that intended?

 

3) it has a machine spirit rule allowing it to fire its missiles at different targets.  Machine spirit rules are usually dropped from CSM versions of other Legion vehicles, is the CSM Kharybdis meant to keep them?  On the subject of chaosification, the option to grab some CSM upgrades - particularly dirge casters or possession - for the CSM version would be cool.

 

4) it seems to be intended to deep strike, then wait around for a turn using its heat blast, before deploying its unit in the following turn.  However, even with 5 hull points, with only armor 12 it seems way too vulnerable to make this strategy viable.  If it's meant to keep the squad inside, then AV12 just seems too low, especially considering the cost of both the pod itself and the cost of the large units it seems meant to deliver.  However, if you deploy immediately, then you don't get to use the heat blast, assault transport, or frag launcher rules.

 

5) it seems WAY too expensive, points-wise.  All its special rules don't really amount to all that much, and the ability to move another unit around after deploying seems way overvalued, even more so than with the dreadclaw (I don't think I've ever seen a transport in 40k pick up another unit after delivering the one it started with, the games just don't last long enough for that to be a meaningful option).  And by too expensive I mean like maybe double the appropriate points cost.  As is I'd have a hard time justifying 120 points for a Kharybdis in my lists, let alone the 260 its currently weighing in at.  Even if you increased its armor to 13, such that it might actually be feasible to use most of its rules, it still seems like it would be as much as 80 or even 100 points too much.

 

6) The heat blast isn't bad as is, I killed a lot of gaunts with it, but neither does it seem all that impressive compared to just disembarking and shooting with unit inside, and it doesn't exactly feel evocative of the idea of melta-cutters as something meant to cut through ship armor.  Maybe something higher strength/lower ap, even if with a smaller radius?  Or actually having the melta rule? I don't know, this is a relatively minor quibble compared to the above, more thematic than something that would stop me from using the Kharybdis.

 

 

Summary: at the moment, I would not use a Kharybdis as it is in regular games, and thus cannot justify purchasing one.

 

 

Good breakdown. I was thinking of sending a similar email tonight, I suppose the more people giving them feedback the better. To which email address did you send it? 

[disease]

^if everyone emails forgeworld without sarcasm and I can't afford one phrases, we are very likely to see a revision.

It worked for the eldar pheonix lord and the R'varna.

 

Bravo for getting the ball rolling.

[Excessus]

You cast blessings/maledictions before reserves. Otherwise there would be little point in the divination #6 power...

[Sception]

I played a couple games with it, too, against the new bugs.  First game couldn't have been a better demonstration of its problems: came down near a tervigon and some gaunts, opted to use the heat blast instead of disembark.  While it did a number on the gaunts caught in range, it didn't touch the tervigon.  Next turn the remaining gaunts (plus some new ones), and the terv itself surrounded the pod and some hive guard smashed it, effectively game over first turn.
 
Second game (since the first was so short) I just deployed the squad (19 vet CSMs plus a spineshiver lord).  It was still smashed by hive guard in the following turn, but the 20 power armored models were a thorn in the other guy's side for the rest of the game.  They ended up controlling an objective in his deployment zone, and he controlled two in mine after basically wiping out everything else in my army with everything else in his.  It was kind of funny, half way through we joked about it a bit and actually switched the sides of the tables we were standing on.
 
Putting that large a unit anywhere on the table is a big deal.  But it's still not a "260 point heavy support choice that does nothing else" big deal.  Altogether the one squad plus HQ and pod were almost half my 1500 point army...

 

 

You cast blessings/maledictions before reserves. Otherwise there would be little point in the divination #6 power...

Are you sure there's a defined order here? They seem to be simultaneous - both happinging at the 'start of the turn', which would leave them up to owning player's discretion, would it not?

[Excessus]

Ah, yes. I was confused and though it had been FAQ:ed the other way, but it was not...

 

 

Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement
phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves
rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

 

Though, the reserves moves in at the start of the movement phase, don't they? That would still mean that the embarked psykers can't throw blessings/maledictions...

[Xenith]

 

You cast blessings/maledictions before reserves. Otherwise there would be little point in the divination #6 power...

Are you sure there's a defined order here? They seem to be simultaneous - both happinging at the 'start of the turn', which would leave them up to owning player's discretion, would it not?

 

You roll for reserves and cast blessings at the same time. Then you begin to move models, including moving ones onto the board from reserve.

[Valaskjalf]

 

 

You cast blessings/maledictions before reserves. Otherwise there would be little point in the divination #6 power...

Are you sure there's a defined order here? They seem to be simultaneous - both happinging at the 'start of the turn', which would leave them up to owning player's discretion, would it not?

 

You roll for reserves and cast blessings at the same time. Then you begin to move models, including moving ones onto the board from reserve.

Hmmm...so a 2++ is possible the turn it comes in? Still damn expensive, will send some feedback to FW and hopefully if others do the same we might get them to shave some points off for the approved rules.

[Dam13n]

No it isn't. Once you begin moving models onto the board you are moving models. Reserve rolls and psychic powers must be performed before anything moves.

 

So you can't use blessings on a unit arriving from reserve. Units arriving from reserve cannot cast blessings either (as specified in the BRB).

 

This has been debated more than once in the OR forum. I suggest you do a search if you need more information.

[Valaskjalf]

No it isn't. Once you begin moving models onto the board you are moving models. Reserve rolls and psychic powers must be performed before anything moves.

 

So you can't use blessings on a unit arriving from reserve. Units arriving from reserve cannot cast blessings either (as specified in the BRB).

 

This has been debated more than once in the OR forum. I suggest you do a search if you need more information.

Ahh found it in the rulebook, missread. Yeah that sucks....would have been the one way I could see myself using this Flyer/Pod.

[Sception]

To be fair, unless you're looking at riptide spam, 20 chaos marines wherever you want them on the first turn of the game is somewhat impressive.  Just not nearly as impressive as this thing's points cost (and that of the marines, for that matter) would imply.

[Valaskjalf]

Well Ive just sent my feedback/suggestions to FW a few minutes ago, hopefully it won't fall on deaf ears.