chimpfrenzy Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Hi, do all successor chapters have to suffer the same flaws as their progenitor chapter? I can't remember having read of a time frame, when their organs started to fail. So if your DIY chapter should be old enough I don't think they necessarily have to suffer the same deficit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285792-gene-seed-flaws-passing-to-successor-chapters/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotsmasha Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 You would want to be within the first 5 or 6 Foundings, with sufficient differences in practice I'd say it's possible. Cheers, Jono Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285792-gene-seed-flaws-passing-to-successor-chapters/#findComment-3572900 Share on other sites More sharing options...
j31c3n Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 I'm under the general impression that yes, a chapter founded using the genetic material of the X Chapter is going to have the same genetic problems as the X Chapter, unless they're from the Cursed Founding, in which case their genetic problems are likely far worse - and if they aren't, why are they a Cursed Founding chapter? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285792-gene-seed-flaws-passing-to-successor-chapters/#findComment-3572918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 If the parent legion's gene seed deteriorated in a particular way over time it is almost certain that any chapter split from that line would behave in the same way. Or worse. Imperial Fists lost acid spit and self induced coma. Excoriators lost acid spit and go into coma for no reason. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285792-gene-seed-flaws-passing-to-successor-chapters/#findComment-3572930 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Likely they will begin with such, though the origins of the mutations might give some leeway. For instance, aside from Grotsmasha's possibility, it is unlikely that any son of Dorn will ever spit acid. The mutation prevents the requisite organ from being added in. Likewise, all sons of Vulkan will have their physical appearances be most affected by radiation. Most Marines have this, however with Vulkan's gene-seed it becomes permanent for that Marine. Not all radiation is the same, nor does it create the same effect. Over time, a Salamander successor will begin to exhibit different appearance traits. Though it would likely remain an 'extreme' look. Outside of all that, it is far more likely that the Successor will develop additional mutations upon that which is already present, if any differences are to be seen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285792-gene-seed-flaws-passing-to-successor-chapters/#findComment-3572933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Blood Angels and Space Wolves would be a case of no escaping the mutations/flaws of their geneseed. Theirs were locked in before the Second Founding ever happened. The Blood Angels have their Thirst and Rage, and cannot escape it, with many of their successor chapter succumbing completely. Space Wolf geneseed became so dependent on a certain factor of their homeworld that they literally cannot be based from another world, as the Wolf Brothers found out to their detriment. As for cases like the Imperial Fists, it seems to be something hard-coded in, as every recorded case of their succeeding Foundings have lost the same geneseed. Oddly enough, I don't think every Raven Guard and Salamander successor have the skin mutations recorded. But Salamanders don't have a lot of known successors, and the Raven Guard had their geneseed so severely screwed up after Istvaan that they are just happy to be running at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285792-gene-seed-flaws-passing-to-successor-chapters/#findComment-3573004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Raven Guard and Salamander mutations are no different than the Imperial Fists', in that they are organs gone wrong. Specifically the Melanachrome, or whatever it is called. Causes skin, hair and eyes to change according to environment, for the duration in which the environmental effects, specifically radiation, are felt. Basically think of the evolutionary caused that led to differences in skin color in modern day humans and imagine it on fast-forward, going back and forth according to their current location. Raven Guard's are broken. It only pales the skin and darkens the eyes/hair. No successor is described as being different than that, that I have seen. The overall issue with their gene-seed seems to be rates of rejection rather than noticeable or debilitating mutations. Salamanders' are overactive, and the constant barrage of radiation from even the least extreme environments puts it on overdrive, leaving them with a permanently changed appearance that goes beyond modern day perception of 'black' skin tone. Their home world's extensive radiation is the worst culprit of all, which is why it is theoretically possible for different appearances among their successors, though it would be no less extreme. For the Salamanders, I intend to explore that with my Storm Bearers hailing from a world with an abnormally powerful magnetosphere. Sharp decrease in solar radiation, negatively correlated to an increase in electromagnetic radiation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285792-gene-seed-flaws-passing-to-successor-chapters/#findComment-3573018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperialis_Dominatus Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 This is an idea I explored in my Battle Griffons chapter (before the serverpocalypse). Descended from Salamanders, their geneseed reacts with their world giving them a similarly extreme appearance. I hadn't quite decided on a specific one though. Something contrasted with the charcoal/red eyes/carrot top of the Salamanders, but not too outlandish in case I want to make models someday. Further, I explored the concept in the Behemoths. The native population tends towards the hirsute, and as a Chapter custom they dye it blue after the creatures they are named for. But though some have speculated they are Space Wolf successors, they vehemently deny this and point directly at... an Ultramarines successor, I can't remember which. Server crash took my stuff. Additionally, my Angels Ascendant and their successor the Lions of Ajax (cue jokes about some soccer team I'd never heard of before I took the name) are descended from the Blood Angels and suffer the flaw; however, those who fall to the Black Rage fall so quickly and so violently that they must be immediately killed unless the Chapter enough in the thick of battle to unleash them (which, it must be granted, is not a rarity). I think my other Chapters were Ultramarines successors with pure geneseed and minor mutations (Doom Warriors had silver irises). Except the Fated, who developed their own flaws in the geneseed after undiscovered wavelengths of radiation caused their older Battle Brothers to develop cancers and cysts that killed them. This was for a Liber event wherein we were to justify using a Chapter's organization without them being an actual successor. Just some ideas I've had on the past to spur exploration of the concept. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285792-gene-seed-flaws-passing-to-successor-chapters/#findComment-3573022 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazorDaemon Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Most of the time the flaws and unique things of a gene-seed are the same of the parent chapter. Occasionally it gets worse or an additional flaw or mutation occurs, usually that is with a successor of a successor. Very rarely, if ever, will it improve. For example, there is no known descendant of the Blood Angels that have gotten rid of the Red Thirst of Black Rage, they thought they almost did, only for it to emerge stronger than ever. It also depends on which flaws or mutations you're considering repairing or worsening. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285792-gene-seed-flaws-passing-to-successor-chapters/#findComment-3573025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimpfrenzy Posted January 19, 2014 Author Share Posted January 19, 2014 I wasn't talking about improving on old flaws of the gene-seed, but not developing them in the first place. See, if for example the high lords created a successor chapter of the Fists in the M32( I reasonable time-frame in my mind for the Yellows to not have yet developed a defect), and they differed in their gene-seed treatment maybe they could avoid the same failings. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285792-gene-seed-flaws-passing-to-successor-chapters/#findComment-3573566 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Possible in the case of the Fists, but hard to nail down as the actual cause. As I mentioned earlier, what I've seen of the successors, they either have no mention, or they all ahve lost them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285792-gene-seed-flaws-passing-to-successor-chapters/#findComment-3573601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 In that case, they would share the flaws that the Fists have. If the successor had additional mutations, that is possible without much fussing. But if that successor does not have those flaws? Then the gene-seed has been tampered with. An active attempt was made to improve the gene-seed. The problem doesn't develop. New ones might, but old ones won't. The old ones are already there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285792-gene-seed-flaws-passing-to-successor-chapters/#findComment-3573603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazorDaemon Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 In that case, they would share the flaws that the Fists have. If the successor had additional mutations, that is possible without much fussing. But if that successor does not have those flaws? Then the gene-seed has been tampered with. An active attempt was made to improve the gene-seed. The problem doesn't develop. New ones might, but old ones won't. The old ones are already there. Right, in theory even if the Successor's gene-seed was developed before the mutation or flaw manifested in the Parent Chapter, unless the mutation/flaw was only the result of something circumstantial, the flaw was already dormant in the gene-seed the successor received. As mentioned prior, it wouldn't be hard to argue that it manifested differently, but if it wasn't the result of an outside force or event for the Parent Chapter, it would be difficult to say it never manifested at all in the Successor. Look into the specific flaw/mutation in question to see what is said about how and when it manifested, and from there go with your best judgement, and of course feel free to ask if you already had the specific one in mind. Undoubtedly you'll get several opinions and insight, and of course in the end its your call. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285792-gene-seed-flaws-passing-to-successor-chapters/#findComment-3573700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuggedJam Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 "Additionally, my Angels Ascendant and their successor the Lions of Ajax (cue jokes about some soccer team I'd never heard of before I took the name) are descended from the Blood Angels and suffer the flaw; however, those who fall to the Black Rage fall so quickly and so violently that they must be immediately killed unless the Chapter enough in the thick of battle to unleash them (which, it must be granted, is not a rarity)." sorry its football get it right Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285792-gene-seed-flaws-passing-to-successor-chapters/#findComment-3578260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 If you really want to be pedantic, it isn't football. It's Association Football, commonly nicknamed football, or soccer in countries where Gridiron Football has a popular following. Rugby Football just happens to be the only one that doesn't have the football nickname. Anyway, I believe this thread has served its purpose, unless chimpfrenzy has more questions related to gene-seed? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285792-gene-seed-flaws-passing-to-successor-chapters/#findComment-3578272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperialis_Dominatus Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 @Rugged Jam: Ah. Yes. One side of the pond must have the right of way over the whole language, and I must surrender the sovereignty of my tongue to the particularities of yours. Certainly. I shall never say soccer again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285792-gene-seed-flaws-passing-to-successor-chapters/#findComment-3578574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 A successor Chapter may, or may not, suffer the genetic flaws of their parent Chapter. It depends on what the nature of the flaw is. A flaw which is the result of an environmental factor (Warp exposure), or ritual practices specific to the originating Chapter (Cannibalism), may not be passed down. The successor could predate the event, or no longer follow the ritual, which would maintain the purity of the geneseed. It may also come from a purer source, such as tithes to the Mechanicum that pre-date the flaw's appearance. Flaws which are the result of the nature of the geneseed itself would almost certainly be inherited. The deficiency may manifest at a different time (Lamenters recently falling to the Black Rage), or to varying degrees (Albinism in the Death Spectres), but should be present. Raptors have more stable geneseed than the Raven Guard, I believe. One of the Blood Angels successors (Blood Drinkers?) maintain a greater control over the Flaw by involving blood consumption in all their rituals. The problem isn't eliminated, but it is lessened. Imperial Fists are somewhat up in the air, as I have not read anything officially stating when their organ failures originated or why. Some stories mention IF successors being able to spit acid, but it's unclear if it is intended as fact or based on incorrect Imperial observation. By and large, the flaws of the First Founding geneseed are present throughout their successors. If you offered a more specific example of what you have in mind, we could offer better advice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285792-gene-seed-flaws-passing-to-successor-chapters/#findComment-3578689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuggedJam Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 on a side note what are the flaws of all primarchs and there sons. i dont giva a damn about the pound or anything brittish as i am spanish Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285792-gene-seed-flaws-passing-to-successor-chapters/#findComment-3578760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazorDaemon Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 on a side note what are the flaws of all primarchs and there sons. i dont giva a damn about the pound or anything brittish as i am spanish Are you asking for a list of the original Chapter/Legions flaws? As far as the Primarchs go, there were no flaws, only different personalities and preferences. (Note: Flaws as mentioned here in regards to Primarchs do not include any Chaos or Warp influence up to and including Daemon Princehood, that is a different matter.) For the Chapter/Legions, it may be easier to just read up on it via Lexicanum or 40k Wiki to get the best idea and understanding of them. No need to bust out negative stereotypes about aggressive fans of the aforementioned sport, we know what is being talked about regardless of semantics and it isn't the topic of discussion anyway. Unless there is a Chapter with the flaw of an obsession akin to the Blood Angels Black Rage/Red Thirst, but instead focused on kicking a black and white ball around. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285792-gene-seed-flaws-passing-to-successor-chapters/#findComment-3578792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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