Trevak Dal Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I can't reiterate enough: An open topped Rhino with either 8 man capacity and fast, or 10 man and move as it is now-as a Dedicated Transport makes us unique and have something over the Loyalists. Not a big thing to fix, not having to reinvent the wheel, not looking for a 6.5 codex. Just let me have something my beserkers can assault out of, that I won't have to pay $80 for and take up Heavy Support slots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totgeboren Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Hopefully these rumour are true, and I'm happy my initial fear of it having the same pricing as Sternguard was wrong, but I agree with malisteen here, it's not all good. The big problem is that most 'CSM' are overcosted in the codex. Giving them undercosted extra abilities should in theory balance them a bit, but it leaves a pretty bad taste in my mouth since that means CSM players in essence have to pay double for for our codex. It really results in a P2W situation, since the only way the basic book can stand on its own feet is by a points reduction on quite a few units which wont happen. So if you want to play on an even footing, you have to spend extra money on rules. Two wrongs doesn't make a right, but whatever. New models and hopefully rules that makes the army fun to use is always a plus, even if we for some reason have to pay double. I have been eyeing the Legion rules quite a bit lately, but I'm afraid I would miss my daemon engines and spawn a bit too much. Hopefully this supplement could swing me back to the 'proper' codex for my army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Oh...you don't have to pay money for it. A copy machine and a glue stick can spread a lot of justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 They'd be more expensive yeah, who cares, we're not talking about renegade space marines, people want the veterans of the long war. They want small elite units of chaos space marines. If this was true (I still think its just wishlisting) then that's what people are looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 small elite units is exactly what will not work with skills paid per squad. do not allow yourself to hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 Our units are bad because they're super expensive and fragile already. Paying more points for more abilities might make them cooler, but in truth it will only make them worse on the tabletop. Just as the black legion terminator upgrade only makes that bad unit worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ammonius Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 We'll have to see if any of these rumors turn out to be true before judging... .. But attempting to fix a problem by doing the same thing that led to the problem makes little sense. Hopefully, if such a supplement/ paid FAQ is indeed on its way, there is something in the book that makes the rumored mechanic make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 More and more it smells like wishlisting somehow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune_Priest_Rhapsody Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I have never been much for speculation when it comes to Games Workshop. Every time I get my hopes up about something that the interwebs says is going to happen, it doesn't. Plain and simple. I wanted until the end of 5th edition for my god damn TWC only to have the new edition make them horrid... So no offense is meant to any of you when I say this, but I'll believe this load when I see pictures. But I'm not holding my breath... End of Line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnightmare Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 From my initial hope of new kits, I now require copious bucket loads of salt.....! New codex won't be for a fair while will it, so look at the bright side; new stuff is better than no stuff (even if just for variety) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 More and more it smells like wishlisting somehow... Because we're chaos and we don't get good stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadman Wade Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I would be happy even with just good new models, so I hope that at least this is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 More and more it smells like wishlisting somehow... Because we're chaos and we don't get good stuff. Models aside, the rumor actual sounds somewhat credible to me, precisely because it isn't particularly good stuff. Our squads are too expensive and fragile already, requiring them to buy the vets upgrade, for the privilege of paying even more points on extra upgrades, well it might make them more interesting, but it won't make them better, particularly for those units which are already worst off - things like chosen and possessed and raptors and warp talons and berzerkers. Units that are even less points efficient, even more fragile for their points than the already unpalatable chaos marines, and that on top of that have to pay two points a model for vets. Termies aren't that bad, but have to pay three points a model for vets, which is ludicrous. And then to pay even more points on top, even for reasonably priced upgrades? 10 infiltrating CSMs would be 16 points a model, 17 points a model if you count the obligatory suicidal champ, and that's before weapon upgrades, marks, and anything else. I don't think I need to tell you guys that, even infiltrating, that isn't any better a deal than 13 point chaos marines without infiltrate were, particularly given all the ways to jam up infiltration these days, and the fact that we have alternatives for accessing that ability. But chosen are even worse. There you're looking at 22 points a model for 10 infiltrating chosen, more if you don't take a full squad, and they still die like 13 point chaos marines, who, again, are already too fragile for that 13 points. Even a single round of shooting from a single enemy squad can cripple them. Look at it this way - if you just take a Chaos Marine army with actual CSM units to begin with, the inefficiency already has you playing with effectively one squad less than your opponent. In order to give all your units vets, you'll have to drop a squad, making you effectively two squads down. I play Black Legion, I give all my units vets already, and let me tell you, that's what it feels like, like you showed up for your game and just forgot to deploy two whole squads, and then you just have to play without. In order to add these abilities to several of my units, I'd end up having to drop another unit. What even would I drop? I wouldn't have an army left at that point. And even if all my dudes were infiltrating, stubborn, shred, and (snrk) 'fear', playing three units down just isn't feasible. Several of our most iconic units are broken, but they simply aren't broken in a way that paying even more points, even for decent additional upgrades upgrades, can fix. So even if this rumor proves true, it's still going to do nothing to reverse the current books nature as 'codex princes, cultists, heldrakes, and oblits'. And since it would do nothing to fix anything and would only function to make us pay more money for worse rules, I actually find this rumor to be quite believable, unlike all the other legion rule rumors we've heard every month since the 4e book's release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 People are far to critical of the chaos dex. Raptors are not really any worse then assault marines chosen are not really any worse then power armour wolf guard or dark angel vets. Chaos has hands down the best relics and hq's oblits are arguably the best heavy support troops, chaos terminators are probably the best shooty termys ect ect. You say that paying 16 points to infiltrate a unit isn't great but that's less then half the cost of a drop pod and you get to pretty much the same benefits not to mention that you can take 2x special weapons and a combi weapon in each squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Look at it this way - if you just take a Chaos Marine army with actual CSM units to begin with, the inefficiency already has you playing with effectively one squad less than your opponent. In order to give all your units vets, you'll have to drop a squad, making you effectively two squads down. I play Black Legion, I give all my units vets already, and let me tell you, that's what it feels like, like you showed up for your game and just forgot to deploy two whole squads, and then you just have to play without. I know right? "Archenemy of mankind" my ass. The Tau and Eldar seem more like the Archenemies of Mankind >:/ I wish I had a taste of that Wardian power in my Chaos Space Marines. My complaints aside, I do alright with them, but as you've said before Malisteen, I feel like I'm fighting with the chaos codex to get stuff to work. People are far to critical of the chaos dex. Raptors are not really any worse then assault marines chosen are not really any worse then power armour wolf guard or dark angel vets. Chaos has hands down the best relics and hq's oblits are arguably the best heavy support troops, chaos terminators are probably the best shooty termys ect ect. You say that paying 16 points to infiltrate a unit isn't great but that's less then half the cost of a drop pod and you get to pretty much the same benefits not to mention that you can take 2x special weapons and a combi weapon in each squad. Raptors do get more weapon options than non BA loyalists. Buuuut until Loyalists are paying a point on tacs, 2 points on Assault Marines, 3 on terminators, Sternguard etc for ATSKNF-on top of paying for Chapter Tactics they aren't even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Well all those units have to pay for veteran Sargent and you get yours for free, and pretty much all those units mentioned cost more or the same as there chaos equivalent. The thing no one seems to mention is that every other power armoured codex is having to pay for marines to sit on there home objective doing nothing, we're as chaos, gets cheap cultist that you can just put out of line of sit and there so cheap who cares if they don't do anything. So you getting a 25 point discount there. Tactical squads in a vacuum are better but army wide there's not a huge difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 All I can say, d@n, is that you should observe and or play with the armies you speak of a bit more. Maybe try putting together typical character builds and testing them out in challenges, because my experience isn't that chaos characters are 'blatantly better' or 'have the best artifacts', my experience is that they all but autolose challenges against equivalent loyalist characters, to the point that, with the exception of princes and axelords, my chaos characters need to cower in fear and flee from any potential melees involving loyalist heroes of any stripe. Also, before implying that thing A is ok because it isn't all that much worse than thing B, you should probably check to see if thing B is at all decent to begin with. Raptors being only somewhat worse than assault marines isn't a note in their favor when I literally cannot remember the last time I saw someone actually use assault marines outside of blood angels armies (and they weren't good there, either, the player just ran them because they were the Blood Angels' "thing", sort of like I've been slaving away on some Black Legion chosen, that I'll run despite everything else, because that's apparently our "thing" now). Also, we don't get vet sergeants for free, we are simply required to buy them. 10 points for the champ are included in the base cost of the units, with the exception of chosen (and maybe terminators? can't remember, away from book atm), where the champion has the same statline as the rest of the squad. As for cultists, it's not that chaos marines don't have decent units, it's just that they're not very 'chaos mariney', and there aren't many of them, so the book funnels you into samey builds that look nothing like sort of armies you started the faction to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I'd happily not take a ACCEPT ANY CHALLENGE, NO MATTER THE ODDS FOR CHAOS!!!!shift111 champ if I got a point deduction for my units. Or if they brought back where you got a discount if you took a certain number (depending on their mark) it'd be Okay, but as it is...dang it's expensive, and you can't even make them better at challenges. When I think about it too much, it disappoints me how much my "close combat army" is shackled to crappy rules. If GeeDub doesn't come correct with a Khorne supplement by March, I'm going to be a 'renegade' loyalist (Space Sharks). I've almost got my Corsairs painted, so it's about that time again for me to change my mind and strip them for a different color scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I want to believe these rumours but it screams of wishlisting to me. The one thing that may validate the plastic rumour to me is possibly the mention of the plastic Reaper Canon. Now that is something that makes a lot of sense and would sell the boxes (for me). I don't like the idea that one model is basically a plastic head with a mouth where the torso joins? Weird, and sounding over the top... New plastics would be amazing. The set is so old, I've just done SOOOO many legions with these plastics I'm sick of them. They were never 'great' and always has some moulding issues with the metal greaves on some leggings... that's why the Vengeance kit was so nice. With the new digi-sculpts and possible weapon variants this would be huge and probably motivate me to do up Black Legion or something new for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I welcome any novelty for chaos, I really do, new models or new rules matters not. Straight from the book we are a watered down MEQ army that cannot fight and cannot shoot like other MEQ's do. So anything, actually everything is good in my book as long as it is somehow new. But to so easily claim that Chaos is better than the SM than I am really wondering if someone actually plays Chaos to make such a claim. The blasted Shield Chapter Master raked half my left flank the past day, hell as an Iron Hand he was even more tougher than my terminator lord and he simply walked over him... And you compare the Tactical Squad which has access to free Chapter Tactics, the Drop Pod and to a better internal synergy in its book to our basic CSM... really play more and than discuss. As for the new kits, I am sacrificing hordes of cultists to the Dark Gods to make it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 It would scream wishlisting if it was a bunch of new stuff for free, or making the vets upgrade free, or anything targeted at a particular cult or legion, or anything that involved entirely new models or units. Basically, anything that might amount to admitting that they cocked up the CSM book to begin with. Since this rumor isn't that, it doesn't sound like wishlisting to me. I mean, it might be false, of course. Or even if it were true now, plans could change and it could be abandoned before release. But it just doesn't quite have that blatant wishlisting flavor that, say, the rumored 'book of khorne' or 'book of nurgle' from 4chan a couple months ago had, because it wouldn't actually fix anything that was wrong with the book, it would just be more ways to pay more points to customize already overpriced units. Something the current book already has in abundance between weapon options, vets, marks, and icons, and doesn't really help anything now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Those obliterator infected "special" weapons . Melta/plasma/flamers that are downgraded versions [melta str 6 ap2 , plasma str 5 ap 3 no rapidfire, flamer is str 3] of the real ones for 5 pts , and they have to switch modes of firing just like normal oblits . Those delicious bikers with hit and run . Them brutal zerkers charging 6+d6' without and icon [and 12" with one]. Chaos dominating again , ton of new model types . chaos DLC at least 1 time per month . supplement every 2 months . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 All I can say, d@n, is that you should observe and or play with the armies you speak of a bit more. Maybe try putting together typical character builds and testing them out in challenges, because my experience isn't that chaos characters are 'blatantly better' or 'have the best artifacts', my experience is that they all but autolose challenges against equivalent loyalist characters, to the point that, with the exception of princes and axelords, my chaos characters need to cower in fear and flee from any potential melees involving loyalist heroes of any stripe. Also, before implying that thing A is ok because it isn't all that much worse than thing B, you should probably check to see if thing B is at all decent to begin with. Raptors being only somewhat worse than assault marines isn't a not in their favor when I literally cannot remember the last time I saw someone actually use assault marines outside of blood angels armies. Also, we don't get vet seargents for free, we are simply required to buy them. 10 points for the champ are included in the base cost of the units, with the exception of chosen, where the champion has the same statline as the rest of the squad. As for cultists, it's not that chaos marines don't have decent units, it's just that they're not very 'chaos mariney', and there aren't many of them, so the book funnels you into samey builds that look nothing like sort of armies you started the faction to play. I have consistently collected and played 40k for more then 20 year including chaos, in fact i recently gave my black legion army to my nephew to get him started in the game, so yes I have played chaos with the currant dex and do in fact know what I'm talking about. There's nothing in the game that consistently beat, either Khârn of abaddon in a challenge, Ahriman is one of the only level 4 psykers in the game, and Huron and typhus are great aswell. There's no way that a chaos lord isn't better in a challenge then a generic space marine captain and there's no way a chapter master is better then a demon prince. You have been implying that thing A is better then thing B so I don't see why I can't. Your right, you do have to pay for the champion, that was my mistake. The chaos dex may not be what you want. But it's not so far behind the vanilla dex that it makes much difference outside super competitive tournaments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 It would scream wishlisting if it was a bunch of new stuff for free, or making the vets upgrade free, or anything targeted at a particular cult or legion, or anything that involved entirely new models or units. Basically, anything that might amount to admitting that they cocked up the CSM book to begin with. Since this rumor isn't that, it doesn't sound like wishlisting to me. I mean, it might be false, of course. Or even if it were true now, plans could change and it could be abandoned before release. I agree it doesn't have the typical over the top wishlisting feel to it. BUT this idea of bringing back old vet skills? Come on that's what the Chaos community has be screaming about for a looooooooooong time! Since when has GW actually listened to the community? This whole rule rumour seems to circle around two things I just haven't seen in the 'new' GW: 1. Almost admitting they screwed up by pretty much 're-doing' our troop options. 2. Again, indicating that they listen to the outcry of the Chaos community. #2 alone would be a first for me in.... man I'd have to say.... 10 years maybe? I just can't see it... it defies GW proven behavior they simply never say 'we were wrong, here's a cookie'. Just not in their vocabulary for codices. This would be unprecedented, would it not? Now making a kit that includes one piece of plastic that everyone really wants in order to sell a box only some of which you would need? Now that SOUNDS just like the GW I know. I'm totally fine with that because I'm a sucker for cool models. In the end, I just want it to be true because I'm sick of the same troop models for so long... and this would motivate me to move on to a new Legion..... crossing fingers here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadman Wade Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 But to so easily claim that Chaos is better than the SM than I am really wondering if someone actually plays Chaos to make such a claim. The blasted Shield Chapter Master raked half my left flank the past day, hell as an Iron Hand he was even more tougher than my terminator lord and he simply walked over him... Just about this part: yeah, Chapter Master is great, but there's no reason why HQ with Abaddon or DP price wouldn't walk over 150-ish pts HQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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