Sception Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 Not everyone plays special characters. Princes, like cultists, are fine, but again, samey builds. As for chaos lord vs. loyalist captains or chapter masters, run it again, and this time give the loyalists the S8, AP2, eternal warrior, and 2+3++ that they don't leave home without, and that chaos characters don't generally get to start with, and certainly don't get in combination, certainly not without terminator armor, which is a much bigger pain for chaos to utilize than loyalists given our lack of effective land raider marks and our total lack of homing beacons. You are saying that raptors are ok because they're not much worse than assault marines. I agree with you. but assault marines are lousy. And it's not that I can't make a decent list with the current book. not on par with taudar, but that's at least as much taudar's fault as anything else. The problem is that the garbage internal balance makes the book very restrictive in terms of what works and what doesn't. The more chaos mariney your chaos marine army, the lousier it is. As for vet skills, I haven't heard any screaming for vet skills. I've heard screaming to have our challenge rule revised or removed. I've heard screaming for cult terminators, generic HQs, and other units. I've heard screaming for army-wide legion specific rules. I've heard screaming for making the vets upgrade free - hatred of loyalists should have been a usr to start, it isn't worth a point extra a model on csms and sure as heck isn't worth three points extra on terminators. I've heard screaming for complete re-works of some of our least functional units, like possessed. I've heard screaming for 6e functional transport options, like assault rhinos, land raider variants, or chaos drop pods. But vet skills specifically? No, I haven't heard that. Not saying it's not out there, just not something that has made itself apparent to me in the past. As for Abaddon or Daemon Princes standing up to chapter masters, sure. But they're like twice the points cost, and Princes are super vulnerable to shooting, while Abby is rather painfully lacking in delivery methods. Not that these aren't decent units. Again, it's not that the book doesn't have decent units. Just that the gulf between the decent ones and the poor ones is rather vast, which pushes you into samey builds. And the things that are decent are super expensive, which pushes you away from marine troops and even more towards cultists, again resulting in even more samey, unchaosmarine feeling builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 But to so easily claim that Chaos is better than the SM than I am really wondering if someone actually plays Chaos to make such a claim. The blasted Shield Chapter Master raked half my left flank the past day, hell as an Iron Hand he was even more tougher than my terminator lord and he simply walked over him... Just about this part: yeah, Chapter Master is great, but there's no reason why HQ with Abaddon or DP price wouldn't walk over 150-ish pts HQ. the shield eternal chapter master is normally around 230 points once you have upgraded him with a thunder hammer artificer armour ect and that's getting into abaddon points . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Unless you (the chaos player) are rolling well and the SM player is rolling poorly, even abbadon or a mace prince would have a difficult time vs an IH chapter master. Even then, that's just a melee build in a shooty edition, not even discussing the shenanigans that the other legions I mean chapters get with their tactics. Edit: Or podding IH with IWND dreads and a MOTF HQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 yeah only the loyalist is moving 12+12" on turn one and not 6" or he moves 12" and has IWND. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Just about this part: yeah, Chapter Master is great, but there's no reason why HQ with Abaddon or DP price wouldn't walk over 150-ish pts HQ. the shield eternal chapter master is normally around 230 points once you have upgraded him with a thunder hammer artificer armour ect and that's getting into abaddon points . Equal points and equally killy, yes, but when Abby takes twice as long to get into combat, his value halves. A chapter master can take a bike or get in a drop pod to be where he is needed, in combat T2. Abby is slow, and needs a raider if he wants to be in combat T2, which doubles his point cost. Equal points and equally killy, yes, but when Abby takes twice as long to get into combat, his value halves. I do hope we get a set of decent models. Chaos has always been the staple of the crazy converters. I think part of the lull in people using the codex are the somewhat dated models for basic troops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 As for vet skills, I haven't heard any screaming for vet skills. I have but this might pre-date your playing Chaos. It was a very big issue back in the day where we could make Legion 'type' troops based on vet skills.... Like for example... a lot of Alpha players would use "infiltrate" on their troops to mimic the feel they wanted. It was a truly cool era because in those days you could face SO many different styled Chaos armies. Those are the times I miss the most... many of us did, and indeed you have to trust me on this, there was screaming when we lost it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 This discussion is fun, but I don't think some of you are getting what I'm trying too say and that is yes, the chaos dex is probably not as good as the marine dex, but there's not such a big gulf between them. The chaos dex is arguably at the same level as the dark angel and better the GK DA and SW codices and like I said not far behind the vanilla dex. The amount of whining far exceeds the reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam13n Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I definitely miss the old Veteran Skills upgrades. Havoks with Tank Hunter, Infiltrating units of CSM etc. made for effective units, which aids list building. Yes, they meant that the units were a little more expensive, but they were effective, something lacking in the current codex. Being able to infiltrate your entire army (if playing Alpha Legion) was brutal. Especially if you were "deploying first" as it gave you the best of both worlds. You opponent had to deploy his whole army before you... and you got the first turn... and you could place your units where they would be most effective then cripple your opponent before he ever got going. Give Chaos that again and watch Tau players as they (through a veil of tears) complain that you've managed to alpha strike all their Riptides and Pathfinders off the table before they got to fight back, and as you Infiltrated rather than dropped in, they weren't allowed to intercept you. Or, thanks to good deployment and going second you tied his lines of Fire Warriors and Riptides up in melee on turn 1 (Especially with a few carefully placed Dirge Casters to rob him of Overwatch). Serves them right for playing a tactically inflexible army. Still GW don't want to have Chaos competitive again, as that'll upset the filthy alien and corpse-god lovers... :P Not that any of the other points you raised don't have equal validity Mal, but Vet Skills were a great way of allowing personalisation of a Chaos force that also added effectiveness and individuality when compared to the loyalist scum. I do miss them, and will forever despise Gav Thorpe for robbing me (and my fellow Chaos Generals) of them (and the purchasable Daemonic upgrades for Characters, which were also rather cool). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 http://www.famouspictures.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/I_want_to_believe5.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 D@an, the monobuild for chaos may be on the same competitive level as DA, SW, GK etc but many of us don't play the chaos monobuild. We play the flavor of our warband/legion which doesn't include 3x3 oblits, 2x drakes, bike lord and retinue of bikes and cultists out the wazoo. We play with chaos marines because that's what codex chaos space marines should be but unfortunately isn't. If this rumor proved to be more than wishlisting, then it is possible we might be able to create the fluffy army we all want (despite some people saying it'll still be crap competitively). Regaining the ability to use veteran skills would go a long way in repairing Chaos Marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I'm not talking about mono builds. I'm saying in general the chaos dex is a stronger dex then the GK, SW and Ba's and on the same level as DA, not that there's really a huge gulf. Most army's only have 1 really strong build and generally there not fluffy so I don't see why the chaos dex should be any different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlâdvar The Destroyer Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Really hope these rumours come true! Plastic Havoc with enough weapon options to have 4 of any of the heavy weapons is much needed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 I'm not talking about mono builds. I'm saying in general the chaos dex is a stronger dex then the GK, SW and Ba's and on the same level as DA, not that there's really a huge gulf. Most army's only have 1 really strong build and generally there not fluffy so I don't see why the chaos dex should be any different. Simultaneously 'stronger than SW' and 'on the same level as DA' just bares no resemblance to my day to day experience. In that it would be impossible to be both of those things simultaneously. Otherwise, wasn't this thread about rumors of models and rules? I knew closing the quarantine thread was a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Skull Mask Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 A Vet-skills update would be really cool! Depending on how it's done. Things shouldn't be too pricy. But you could start backing your cultists with useful, specialized CSM. I would definitely by such a dataslate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Some people can't be swayed even when the evidence is there. Definitely agree about the complaint thread, now it's just started to spread everywhere else again. I don't know how I feel about plastic autocannons, already converted three autocannon fellas in my warband so I'd have to go back and scrap them if I wanted to use those. What about other weapon options for havocs any rumors on them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 I'm using these rumors, true or not, as motivation to get together most of my existing old or unpainted models and get rid of them. The havocs are the one unit I'm still iffy on whether or not to ditch, on account of the forgeworld autocannons I used.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormborn Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 The only part of the current Havocs kit I like is the autocannon. I can't think of any part of the Chaos Space Kit I like, All GW/FW bikes are just awful. S some new plastic kits would be just what I want as long as there not all covered in spikes, blades, skulls, deamon mouths, chains and gribbly bits. In moderation they work but GW seem to think that Chaos Marines roll in glue and then charge into spikes are us before popping off to get mauled by the latest super bad dude army. The current range is far too busy, its like Mike McVey never left. I just want some nice looking Power Armour with the spikes, blades etc. as options that I can add or not. At the moment if i want to build a Chaos Marine I'm having to use dark angel veterans or forge world 30K stuff. As for the codex it's awful. I used to love the CSM codex and could spend days tinkering with an army build and now I can't which sucks. Personally I blame special characters, there are far too many of them Chaos needs 5, 1 for each mark (I'd only keep Khârn out of the current book) and Abby. Although both Khârn and Abby could use an updated miniature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 If you don't wan't any chaos in your chaos marines, forgeworld has you covered. With GW price increases it's not like they cost all that much more, and relatively strong rumors say you'll even be able to buy or at least order FW models from your local store or GW's own web page, soon. I for one hope the new models look very similar to the new codex artwork: http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z142/Malisteen/421px-Blood_Gorgons_Marine_zpsa8be1dae.png http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z142/Malisteen/CSM23_zpsc63a8795.jpg http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z142/Malisteen/Chaos-Marines_zpscca3d42c.jpg (this one especially) http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z142/Malisteen/2480x480-75_zps7639b312.jpg Faces, jagged trim, little teeth and all. Maybe with slightly smaller backpacks. I prefer 10,000 years of warp exposure to mean something, both in models and in rules. Both fail to show that long, post-heresy history at the moment, but I have high hopes for the models, should the rumors prove true. The DV suff and the raptor/warp talon kit released shortly thereafter are pretty much my favorite CSM models since... ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 IF there is a chaos release, I will surely be buying stuff. My Thousand Sons needs some renegade cannon fodder... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 closing the quarantine thread was a bad idea. it was the most interesting thing on the whole board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 'Mono' list suggests that even that is up there with the best lists others are using. Still isn't! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 Nat's got a roundup post up with the original rumor plus Q&A answers from the rumor source in the original rumor's comment section: http://natfka.blogspot.com/2014/01/long-war-supplement-qna-compilation.html As usually, I'm posting as 'Roderick' over there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Personally I'll be jazzed about VotLW skills. If I can give my Night Lords infiltrate or fear I will be one happy camper. Sure it's not a dedicated 'Legion' ruleset, but honestly I don't care. Just give me the rules to express what my Legion actually does and I'll be a-okay with it. This would fit well with the whole 6th edition swiss army knife approach you see in the Space Marine dex, tons of variation and the possibility for creating a very fluff accurate force. I will gladly drop a unit or two if I can infiltrate my whole army and make the enemy cry tears of blood as I tear into him on turn 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totgeboren Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Just getting cheapish stubborn would be awesome, since I could finally use my CSM in close combat without feeling like I'm stupid. As it is now, close combat is the last place CSM wants to be, since it often results in them getting run over. I'm getting a bit tired of 2xplasma being the only useful load-out in town. Now if only they would do something about the forced challenges and we would have a codex that is actually fun to use... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 This discussion is fun, but I don't think some of you are getting what I'm trying too say and that is yes, the chaos dex is probably not as good as the marine dex, but there's not such a big gulf between them. The chaos dex is arguably at the same level as the dark angel and better the GK DA and SW codices and like I said not far behind the vanilla dex. The amount of whining far exceeds the reality. Comparing a 6th ed Codex to 5th ed Codexes and saying the newer one is better while the other ones have fallen off and are not as good currently is just dense. Not trying to be rude, but I do not think your points are valid in the slightest. GK carried an entire edition. . . DA is considered the worst codex in the game currently, and CSM compare very well with them. SW were considered one of the better armies in 5th ed, their rules became outdated and now are not all that great. But they were. Lets compare CSM to the later 5th ed and all the 6th ed books? Imperial Guard? Necron? DA? Daemons? Tau? Eldar? Space Marines? CSM is down there with DA, though slightly better from a competitive standpoint but that can be explained by Heldrakes doing work on scoring units. Here is the list of highest win% armies in 40k per Torrent of Fire. Eldar (62.87%) Tau Empire (61.33%) Chaos Daemons (59.37%) Necrons (55.75%) Space Marines (50.21%) Wanna know where CSM stands? Hows about 43% So SM have 46 more wins than CSM and have been out for half the time, while SM have played a total of 27 more games than CSM they have won 46 (put that into perspective) more games. My point is that they are not on the same level, they are in different worlds level wise. SM is closer to Tau/Eldar than CSM ever will be to them in this edition. To deny that is to literally deny logic. Also, wanted to touch on the whole Abbaddon thing vs SM CM with the shield. He should never win that because the assault would never happen unless the CM wanted it too. Being he is always on a bike and Abby walks. None of that matters however, the CM does more for his army than our Lord/Prince can ever do for ours. A Prince vs that CM is a mismatch, the CM would beat him 9 out of 10 times (unless you make the Prince a psycher and he rolls up some good powers, but then he would be 300+). Just sayin' man, you really are not looking at it logically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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