Smurfalypse Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 As far as these rumors go, they would go a LONG LONG way toward making the CSM units actually playable in fun games. I can dig going to a tournament knowing I will not use CSM as they are too expensive, but what really sticks in my craw is the fact that even in fun games I find them really really difficult to take, and I am known in my area for using Mutilators in my casual games (just trying to let you know what I think of CSMs right now). There is something to be said about building an army to do a particular "thing". If you want to outflank with a couple of 20 man units of CSM, then by all means. This becomes very viable in casual play and I would actually try stuff like this out instead of just running my obligatory 4 Cultist units. CSM x20, VotLW, Plasma/Flamers/Melta whichever you prefer would come to 300pts totalish (i went with Melta in case I needed to blow some :cuss up!). This is not a completely useless unit. You have stuck 20 decently tough dudes behind enemy lines with an outflank and a rack of bolters + melta shots. I can build a fun list around this and not get completely swept off the board, and you know what? For now, I would be grateful for that. There are also other things you can do obviously and tactical ideas where you can build a list to suit it. I love that and am not going to poopoo that at all. I know this is not going to change the scene at tourney and really nothing that GW can do at this point can, other than a rewrite of course, but it can make things fun a bit and that is all I want :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperialis_Dominatus Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I am not going to discuss what is wrong with the current Codex. But I will say that to fix Chaos Space Marines on the tabletop, they need a fundamental rewrite both in how the army as a whole works and how a number of units work. Fundamental. Ground-up. Supplements won't do enough, no matter what they do, and Malisteen has the right of it. They're likely to make it worse by trying to tack on enough stuff to an already overpriced model. Maybe if loyalists actually paid enough points for their bonuses... I am hopeful that new models are on the way, and that supplements to come will at least sell well enough for GW to step back and say, 'Huh. That there Legion stuff seems to be doing the trick, and those there Cult unit rules also seem like something the playerbase wants. Maybe we should include this in the next Codex for Chaos. And hey, Forge World seems to be selling a few Kharybdis pods (assuming FW fixes those)... maybe we should think about transport options for Chaos.' I'm in it for the long haul, playing the long game for the Long War. Hopefully GW doesn't give me another long face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 I don't think this would fix our book, and while it technically can't 'make things worse' - since worse case scenario is you just don't buy the abilities and thus end up with what you already have - I do think that lists that make extensive use of such abilities will be worse off then those that don't. That said, used sparingly, such abilities could bring out some fun or interesting, if not necessarily effective or competitive, build options. So despite sounding all sour puss about it in this thread, I am excited at the possibility. Nowhere near as excited as I am about the possibility of a new CSM kit, that has me excited enough that I'm actually hoeing out all my old boxes to separate bits from sprues from assembled models from painted models to sell the lot on ebay so I can be ready to start my collection more or less from scratch (at least in terms of power armored models). And if the rumors prove to be false, oh well. If not now, then there will be a new CSM kit some time, and honestly my lists could only be improved by running less power armored infantry in the mean time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 It is irritating that we will essentially being paying TWICE for a crack at what loyalists get for free. That being said, I welcome anything that can make my chaos marines better on the table and closer to how I envision my warband, even if it is a bitter medicine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Son of Magnus Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I'm not sure GW realizes that CSM don't need a bunch of expensive, unnecessary upgrades. If anything they should get them for free considering Loyalists get 3 special rules for 1 point more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dar'kir Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I'm not talking about mono builds. I'm saying in general the chaos dex is a stronger dex then the GK, SW and Ba's and on the same level as DA, not that there's really a huge gulf. Most army's only have 1 really strong build and generally there not fluffy so I don't see why the chaos dex should be any different. That is not true at all. If you really look into the GK codex there are several rather strong builds you could run. Add to that a character who lets you deep strike without scattering and you are able to put in a world of hurt. Also, the way a friend of mine runs his GKs, he has about three different lists that are equally devasting. Meanwhile, unless I run one of those standard builds, I m pretty much shafted... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dar'kir Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Regardless, Im still rather excited about the possibilty of new models on the horizon. Even if it might be a few months out, it will be worth it to add a little "fresh air" to my existing force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Overall there are only two rules that I am interested in, Relentless and Infiltrate, with a very distant third place for Hit&Run. I love big blocks of PA infantry and I would really love to have a Relentless maxi squad of Chaos Space Marines, with extra CCW to capitalize once the enemy is drowned in bolter fire. As for the models, well it is high time to have some new plastic, I am sick and tired of old models, especially when the now ancient metal models were much more detailed than the current ones and had way more character. I love the DV looks and I would love to begin a proper project with new models and new rules. And one thing is certain in my case, I am addicted to Kill Team so I will not have problems buying tons of new models just to make highly customized Kill Teams and follow the legion themes if I am given veteran skills. But as with all things Chaos, a ton of salt is needed, nay a full container of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I want to believe this. Prospect of new models is awesome and if supplement allowing us to buy veteran skills is released among it, it would be very exciting as it fulfills several fans wishes (return of the veteran skills, making CSM better, ability to make them less prone to morale, and ability to properly represent legions). But It seems way too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I am not going to discuss what is wrong with the current Codex. But I will say that to fix Chaos Space Marines on the tabletop, they need a fundamental rewrite both in how the army as a whole works and how a number of units work. Fundamental. Ground-up. Supplements won't do enough, no matter what they do, and Malisteen has the right of it. They're likely to make it worse by trying to tack on enough stuff to an already overpriced model. Maybe if loyalists actually paid enough points for their bonuses... Amen - it's a shame in a way that both us and Dark Angels were shafted as a first release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzen Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I think we all really want just some of this to be true, but it really does smack to me of wish listing. I think the reason we kinda give it any credibility it because the manner in which the kits have been described make sense from a design point of view. I think Havocs/chosen would likely be in the same box. I also think the standard CSM kit needs updating. But all this talk of extra rules and especially cult heads gives the game away. If you think about it, the amount that would need to be on the sprue would be huge. I dunno. Again would be lovely if it were true, but I honestly think it's dwarfs in feb, Imperial Knights in March and we will all be sat here feeling rather bitter :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 The rumors don't put havocs and chosen in the same box, they put CSMs and Chosen in the same box: two new 5-body CSM body sprues, plus a sprue of weapon & body upgrades for unit upgrades or to upgrade the whole squad to chosen, and one god specific sprue with icons and alternate heads to show marks. The havocs would be a separate box with one of the same 5-body sprues from the CSM box and one heavy weapon sprue with autocannon/heavy bolter/missile launcher/lascannon. Sounds feasible to me. As for 'dwarfs in feb/knights in march'; tons of rumors, not just this one, are pushing the idea that releases won't be so segregated, that we won't see a whole month of releases exclusively for one faction of one game as we have recently, and that instead there will be 'week three' or 'week four' releases each month that will be kits for factions already updated or yet to be updated, with the idea being to give people motivation to stop by their stores more frequently than one month every five years. I'm not saying the rumors are true, but they are believable, fit with other rumors regarding changing release schedules, and fit with old rumors from our codex's release in terms of kits that were in development but not ready for release at the time. Further, the rules rumors are believable since they more or less fit the recent digital rules push (onslaught, whatever), and especially that they aren't the changes people have been crying for, are way more conservative than any of the other recent false rumors, and really wouldn't meaningfully 'fix' any of our sub par units (the worse our units are, the worse it is to spend more points on them, no matter what abilities you're getting out of it). Again, I'm not saying this rumor is true, but it has a 'ring' of truth. At the moment, there's no particular reason to think it sounds fishy other than that we would like it to happen. But that's no more evidence against a rumor than it is evidence for one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzen Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 If that is the case, that chosen and CSM are on the same sprue that leaves me thinking its even more false. Obviously you are just passing the message on Mailisteen, so I am not arguing with you for the sake of it. However to me that doesn't ring particularly accurate. Havocs and chosen can share a lot of the same wargear. So adding a few extra bits that are needed for them and having a sprue of 5 man in the box makes more sense than having two sprues with 5 marines on it, and then an extra sprue to make them into chosen. To me the Boxes would be more believable if they were like this: CSM Box: 2 of the same sprue - includes an extra small sprue for champion/special weapons. They could then make an additional sprue for each of the cult options depending on what you buy. That way its just a case of making one more sprue for each cult squad. Example: Thousand Sons box - The usual two sprues with five marines on each, but they remove the champion sprue, and add the "thousand sons" sprue. Much like they do with the metal stuff now. Havoc/Chose: All the same box. Has one Sprue for the new CSM, plus one extra sprue for the Havoc/chosen options. So five marines witha tonne of weapons options on another sprue. Adding a sprue to a box of 10 standard marines to make chosen seems odd. Especially given the trends in the past to make kits double up. They could even do a noise marines box using the 5 man havoc/chosen box. So there's three kits for the 5 man box - Havocs/chosen/noise marines. And there are four kits to the CSM box - Normal CSM/Plague marines/bezerkers/Tsons. If anything, the way you describe them makes them less likely to me. Not more. The rules I agree with. To be totally honest I have given up trying to second guess GW in that regard. But the way in which you are passing on the info for these rumoured new models doesn't sit well with me. Given how things have been packaged in the past. The originator of the rumour has looked at what really needs updating in the CSM range and just runw ith a rumour. I honestly believe all of it is lies. I want to be proved very very wrong though! EDIT: Honestly think about it. Heads for all the cult troops on one sprue? Come on. Thats 10 x Tsons heads and 10x Bezerker heads (assuming they re do bezerkers too) and 10 x normal heads. Plus some Nurgle heads and slaaneshi heads too. It will be a spure of just heads :/ There's just too much trying to be fit on one sprue. Second Edit: Just re -read some of the rumours. Okay so its five heads per god. It's still too much for one Sprue in my opinion. It's still about twenty five heads for just one sprue :S Third Edit: Again Malisteen. I have not a thing against you! I just don't believe any of it :( Please don't take anything I have said personally, it'snot my intention at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 A havocs box needs to be mostly heavy weapons, a chosen box doesn't. Yeah, one could say that the chosen can have a heavy weapon, and it would be nice to have all the options, but by the same token, basic CSMs can have a power weapon, and, again, it would be nice to have all the options. There's really no more overlap between chosen and havocs than there is between basic CSMs and havocs or between basic CSMs and chosen. Especially since GW doesn't see chosen as a special weapon squad, and doesn't see havocs that way either, as evidenced by the current havocs box and by the chosen squad in the dark vengeance kit. To GW, chosen are just an elite version of basic CSMs, so putting the two in the same box doesn't exactly seem unlikely to me, and certainly doesn't seem less likely than putting Chosen and Havocs in the same box. Of course, all three equivalent loyalist units got their own boxes, but that's loyalists. Again, I'm not saying that the specific set up mentioned is a reason to believe this rumor, but neither is it a reason to disbelieve it. Again, at the moment the reasons to view this rumor as possible are that it fits into spaces provided by other rumors (mostly unfinished model rumors from our codex release and new release pattern rumors more recently), while the reasons to view the rumor as unlikely are mostly just that we'd like it to be true. Now, I'm all for keeping our hopes down, but the overall character and tone of this rumor is just so completely different from any of the other wishlists and false rumors I've seen over the last several years that I'm inclined to give this one more credence. At least this rumor has things slated to be happening very soon. By the end of February we should more or less have confirmation one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzen Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 As I've said I would love to come to this thread by the end of February and be so incredibly wrong that I can rejoice in it. But to me, it really does seem like none sense. And again, I don't want to come across as disrespectful. We obviously have different views on the credibility of the source. I don't want you to think I mean any poor thoughts about you because of that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 No offense taken. I have no opinion on the credibility of the source, as I don't know them. I simply disagree with you in terms of the plausibility of the rumor, and in particular in the idea that chosen make sense as a dual kit for havocs, when the only overlap is that they can both take a bunch of special reapons, and GW doesn't seem to see either of those squads as 'special weapon' squads to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RolandTHTG Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Overall there are only two rules that I am interested in, Relentless and Infiltrate, with a very distant third place for Hit&Run. I love big blocks of PA infantry and I would really love to have a Relentless maxi squad of Chaos Space Marines, with extra CCW to capitalize once the enemy is drowned in bolter fire. As for the models, well it is high time to have some new plastic, I am sick and tired of old models, especially when the now ancient metal models were much more detailed than the current ones and had way more character. I love the DV looks and I would love to begin a proper project with new models and new rules. And one thing is certain in my case, I am addicted to Kill Team so I will not have problems buying tons of new models just to make highly customized Kill Teams and follow the legion themes if I am given veteran skills. But as with all things Chaos, a ton of salt is needed, nay a full container of it. I'm definitely interested in seeing who gets relentless. Noise Marines with it = Forgeworld getting an order for their kakophoni about 1/2 a millisecond later. Doing that, with the champion leading them with a power-maul conductor (like either Cap. Semper or Forte modeled) as he leads his Marching band into battle.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 I will take on any Chaos list that isn't running a Heldrake with an all-comers list from any PA dex that isn't BA. Even DAs, then I will show you what is wrong with the Chaos dex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Well blobs of 20 CSM with Relentless would be very interesting indeed. As would Relentless Noise Marines, Chosen and even Havocs with Plasma Guns. In the end even a well placed Shrouded can make some wonders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 Shroud and Stealth weren't mentioned in the rumor. Though the rumor source wasn't sure they had the full list, the ones they mentioned specifically were: fear (cheapest ability at 5 pts per squad) infiltrate (most expensive ability at 20 per squad) tank hunter relentless stubborn (one of the cheaper abilities at 10 points) preferred enemy shred fleet Outflank was mentioned as well, but they had a question mark next to that, and it's part of infiltrate already so... yeah. Anyway, I doubt relentless would be less points than stubborn, so 10 to 20 points. Let's split the difference and estimate 15 points. So 20 CSMs with vets is already 290 points. Plus relentless would then be around 305 points. If you wanted to give them close combat weapons as well, then you're talking another 38 points (the chap has ubergrit by default), so we're up to 343. I'm assuming you'd spring for some special & heavy weapons if you're buying relentless, if we throw on a plasmagun and autocannon that's another 25, so we'd be up to 368. Throw a power weapon on the champ, and we're up to 383. 383 / 20 is 19.15 points a wound. Now, that is a pretty impressive unit, but it's still a lot of points per wound for models with marine durability, and quite vulnerable to template based AP3, which isn't exactly all that hard to come by. And even one such unit is going to cost more than a quarter of your points in 1500 point games, not counting any attached HQs, so it's not exactly like you'll be presenting your opponent with that many other targets to split their fire between. Terminators are relentless by default, and you could get a full squad of 10 terminators, either all with combi weapons or with 8 combi bolters and two reaper autocannons, for that many points, and I don't think any of us would consider that unit to be a great idea at this point. Granted they aren't scoring, but still. Relentless, infiltrating, etc, some of these are good abilities, but I just don't see them making units we don't already consider taking worth fielding. I could see dropping a single sonic blaster dude in a sonic blaster noise marine squad to make the rest relentless, or dropping the rhino off a chosen plasmaspam unit to give the rest infiltrate. I could see dropping Huron or Ahriman in favor of just buying infiltrate for two units and taking another HQ, though apparantly infiltrate won't be purchasable for terminators, so not if you were using them for that. Maybe finding the points for shred on bikes you were already taking, or tank hunters on autohavocs you were already taking, or relentless on lashavocs you were already taking (so you could deploy them out of los). But I don't think this is going to make 20 man CSM squads more viable in the end than the per-squad upgrades they could get from icons already. But I've been wrong before. And that's even assuming this rumor is true at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Would actually be good if Fear was free, Infiltration being the costier with like 15pts and the majority of the other Skills ben around 5 and 8pts per unit, but yeah 15-20pts with the allready extravagant points cost, its just a gadget thing. Like the Ones who looks in the Darkness upgrade for DW Termies and the Field torture device who cost 25pts to only give a situational rule if you kill a character model... Fits in the fluff, hard to really look at it with a straigth face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 Making fear free would constitute admitting that they screwed up the pricing on our units, or screwed up the fear ability to begin with. They aren't going to admit they screwed up anything. As for what 'should' be, give the current hatred of loyalists to all our marinish units (ie, not cultists, spawn, etc) as an army-wide ability, and then let these new 'vet skills' represent veteran status on their own. You'd still need to fix some individual units (possessed, talons), abilities (marks, psychic powers), re-think the challenge restriction (Ld test to refuse, instead of requirement to challenge), make artificer armor available to characters, and introduce new transport options (re-thought dreadclaw, landraider variants, some kind of mid range assault or open topped daemonic thing). All that's what should be. But again, no hope for any of that until our next book, because GW isn't going to release any patch to this one that could be construed as an admission of messing up to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uprising Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Ok these rumor sound great and fantastic, but I am not willing to believe anything till I see them on GW Home page. I hope it true, but it probably not. I am so tired of getting my hopes up for chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam13n Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 The thing with Fear is that while it is largely worthless game-play wise, it is a fairly important rule for those who want to play a fluffy Night Lords army. One of my mates is building Night Lords at the moment (for both 30k and 40k) and I know that he'll be happy if this rumour turns out to be true. The same can be said of Stubborn, which is only really useful when you lose combat and, in the shooting dominated landscape of 6th edition, it's not that valuable. However, both Iron Warriors and Word Bearers armies, from a fluff standpoint are fairly Stubborn in their own ways, so being able to take it may allow the players of those armies to feel like they are actually playing their chosen legion rather than a generic one. If this turns out to be true, then we will also have access to competitive veteran skills, but will have to pay a fair amount for them. While the less competitive (fluffy) skills should be cheap. It actually sounds like this may end up being the case. What does concern me a little is the rumoured title of this supplement. It makes me think that we may have to take VotLW in order to unlock these Veteran Skills, at which point the cost may start spiralling upwards pretty quickly. One can hope that the core supplement rule is: "Chaos Space Marine models taken as part of a Detachment chosen from this Supplement have the Veterans of the Long War upgrade for free, in addition each unit may take a certain number of Veteran Skills from the list below, depending on their unit type". (Now I don't believe this is actually going to be in the Supplement, but I can hope ) The other thing being the pts/unit idea, which encourages large units and therefore tactical inflexibility. I'd much rather be seeing pts/model upgrades than pts/unit. Still, I'm going to remain cautiously optimistic for now - I mean, it's not like a supplement can make the base codex any worse than it already is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 The rumor is that you would need to purchse veterans of the long war first to unlock these further skills. You are specifically not getting vets for free in this equation, nor can you purchase these skills without first paying the normal points for vets on a given squad. Anything else would be GW effectively admitting that they screwed up the CSM book, at least in so far as the handling and pricing of the vets upgrade. If the rumor was that we were getting vets for free, or getting these abilities without first paying for vets, then I would view the rumor as blatant bunk and wishlisting, instead of viewing it as something relatively plausible, as I currently view it. This vets thing, if true (and it sounds more like a dataslate sort of deal than a supplement), is not going to 'fix' CSMs because it is very pointedly going to avoid any action that might be construed as an admission that CSMs were 'broken' to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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