Warsmith Aznable Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 In future supplements they could always pull out of their hat a reason that Black Legion has to pay for VotLW and the current one does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Fear should still work on ATSKnF models, maybe in some other way then what it does, but it should, Marine arn't Fearless, they shouldn't be immune. And all what you state Mali i know that, we discussed this long enough since last year, but seeing how things are going, i thing it will be one thing at a time or with a looooor of patience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Though a 6,5 Chaos Space Marine codex would be the better choice than a patch supplement to make our Codex, 1.2 version alas that is what we should expect... somehow. And lets say it loud and clear that I do not like it that much, for the very reasons you Mali politely put. It makes a badly priced unit even more obscene in points cost. Alas on the other hand my 20 CMS have become staple and today alone that very unit with Ahriman as HQ managed to tie me two games for it is that devastating if used properly, add Relentless and than despite the cost it would be fabulous in my lists... But yes building up points on units that will be still lackluster even after the price increase is bad policy. Bad Gw, bad! (insert Eric Cartman's voice here) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 honestly I really don't get all this negativity. I'll reserve my harrumphing for when this proves to be nothing like it's rumored to be. Until that point I think this is a fantastic step in the right direction. Outside of obscene price hikes, I actually kind of like the direction GW is taking the game. Not to say it hasn't been full of hiccups and bizarre units for all codexes, but I have this feeling that we are on the cusp of seeing the days of high, fluffy customization back. I love when there are so many options that there isn't an outright "best" list, just the list you want to take because it's "cool." Now on the subject of everyone whining about the veteran skills adding a greater cost to an already costly unit, are you serious? What, did you all just think GW was going to hand you 3.5 back on a silver platter and say, "thanks for being patient Chaos, now enjoy beating everyone on the tabletop again." The system they have set up fits PERFECTLY with the fluff. In every single thread about Traitor Legionnaires, what are we all bitching about? The lack of Veteran status. We all throw out constant examples of why your average traitor legionnaire has the experience level of most captains, however with that, everyone has to remember how INSANELY rare actual 'Traitor Legionnaires' are. That is to say, dudes who were there at the siege of Terra or fought in the Great Crusade, etc. YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO PAY FOR THAT. Basically GW is giving you the equivalent of an army of Sternguard/Vanguard Veterans and you're all standing there asking why it isn't free. For me this is perfect, sure I'll pay around 25 points to give my squads fear and infiltrate, but then that means I can drop their Rhinos and actually SAVE 10 points, imagine that! Not only will I save points, but I will also gain to very fluff-accurate abilities that are also potent on the tabletop and allow my Chaos Marines to get into range to do what they do best. So seriously, unless all these rumors end up being absolute hogwash (which they still might, got my salt shaker on standby), there is really no room to complain. For those of you saying we should get vets of the long war for free, no we shouldn't. That :cuss is a privilege earned through thousands of years of combat, thus why those dudes rate these new veteran skills. You punks over in the maelstrom are freaking boots compared to the original legions. You are not on the same level as us. Pay the price or deal with being the junior varisty thin-bloods you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 Ah, the tired old "you just want broken old 3.5 back" line in response to any critical opinion of the current book, whether that book was the old 4e codex or the new 6e codex. It's how you know the poster in question hasn't read anything you've said, so you don't need to read anything they've said. I do hope the rumor is true. It would be nice, and I never said I expected more (quite the contrary, I've said several times that if the rumors sounded like they were actually going to fix any of the problems with our book, I'd view them as completely unbelievable). But if you think 20 point Chaos marines are going to have any more significant a presence on the tabletop than 13 point chaos marines - let alone possessed, chosen, and warp talons that not only cost as much as terminators, but considerably more - well, you're welcome to 'em, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Chapter Tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Ah, the tired old "you just want 3.5 back" line in response to anything less than glowing praise of the current book, whether that book was the old 4e codex or the new 6e codex. It's how you know the poster in question hasn't read anything you've said, so you don't need to read anything they've said. I do hope the rumor is true. It would be nice, and I never said I expected more (quite the contrary, I've said several times that if the rumors sounded like they were actually going to fix any of the problems with our book, I'd view them as completely unbelievable). But if you think 20 point Chaos marines are going to have any more significant a presence on the tabletop than 13 point chaos marines - let alone possessed, chosen, and warp talons that not only cost as much as terminators, but considerably more - well, you're welcome to 'em, I guess. Well thanks for that gross over-generalization of my character Malisteen. I'm glad you see me as nothing but a slobbering fanboy of the new codex. There are many, MANY issues with the current Chaos codex, we are easily one of the most underpowered, over-costed codexs out there right now. However if these rules hold true, then I see this as nothing but an improvement. You also assume that all I'm concerned with is frog-stomping people on the tabletop. I'm not saying this update is somehow going to be the wonderful cure-all for everything that ails Chaos, I'm saying that this will at least give us an edge. Frankly I haven't had too rough of a time in 6th edition, my Night Lords are 9-1-1 right now against Eldar, two separate codex Marine armies both running Fist doctrine, and chaos demons/Word Bearers. I don't run Heldrakes, I don't run cultists, I never take demon allies, and I still run chaos terminators in a Landraider. True I don't play the competitive circuit anymore, but why the :cuss would I? that is the absolute worst way, in my opinion, to do this hobby. My point is that despite this crappy codex we all whine about, I honestly have been doing about just as good as I did in 5th with my Iron Warriors. These veteran rules allow an extra level of customization and recognition for those of us who play the old legions. You being a black Legion guy I would expect you to understand, but I guess getting your own freaking supplement just simply wasn't enough. You are completely entitled to being grumpy about whatever it is you're grumpy about Malisteen, but frankly its pretty damn rude to just write off and flippantly dismiss what I say on the basis that I mentioned some Chaos players wanting to have a broken codex again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Nobody wants a broken codex. I don't know where you're getting that from. We want well considered flavorful rules, and we want them at a fair cost. The "whining" is because obe codex getting bonuses for free while another codex has to pay twice doesn't seem fair. Chapter Tactics and ATSKNF for free for SM, but a VotLW tax and veteran skills for points just doesn't add up to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Nobody wants a broken codex. I don't know where you're getting that from. We want well considered flavorful rules, and we want them at a fair cost. The "whining" is because obe codex getting bonuses for free while another codex has to pay twice doesn't seem fair. Chapter Tactics and ATSKNF for free for SM, but a VotLW tax and veteran skills for points just doesn't add up to me. The problem is that will never happen, I'm frankly surprised no one has realized this by now. Veteran Sergeant brought this up in another thread, but Warhammer 40,000 has never been balanced, and probably never will. GW does not care enough or doesn't want to create a well-balanced games system. The way the Space Marines get chapter tactics, but the Chaos Legions don't get anything that distinguishes them has long been a thorn in my side, however even though this may just be a hot fix, if it allows me to play my Chaos Marines as they are represented in the fluff, then I'm a happy camper. Like I said in my original post, people are complaining about paying double for these skills but I see the logic in it. If you do take a squad of guys who are actual Long War vets, then they are going to cost more than joe-bob space marine. Sure, Joe bob gets ATSKNF, (which honestly is a whoopdy-do thing, they've had it for so long it's not like we should be surprised or even frustrated by it anymore) and maybe gets re-rolled ones with bolter weapons. Whereas my guy doesn't get that stuff, but he can infiltrate and be murdering joe bob with close range bolter/plasma fire on turn one or possibly assaulting. regardless, I'm not saying this update is going to be a huge game changer or that it will fix all our problems. I just don't see the need for all the ho-humming. They could have just let us rot with this codex for a few years till they give us another crappy one, a-la-5th edition. Instead they are actually giving us a good variety of options, that while being pricey (again relative, fear and infiltrate costs less than the rhino you wouldn't need to take anymore) at least give us a nice edge that will put the opponent on the backfoot. especially Tau/Eldar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Hey, I'm mot saying I don't want the things. If I have to pay for them I will, but I can be grumpy about it and I think that's justified at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Hey, I'm mot saying I don't want the things. If I have to pay for them I will, but I can be grumpy about it and I think that's justified at least. You're definitely entitled to be grumpy. I think my overall feeling is just that I see so much negativity these days, like chaos players have forgotten that they are allowed to be happy or something. I've definitely done my fair share of raging against the injustices we've suffered, but I think Veteran Sergeant's comment the other day just triggered something in me, where I realized how much time I had spent being unhappy and pissed about this or that with chaos. There's always going to be something that sucks with Chaos. There's always going to be this army or that which has better rules. I realized I just need to stop bitching and just enjoy the game for what it is, a game. I like the models, I enjoy the fluff and write my own, and I like rolling dice. So what if I don't have something that compares with loyalist Space Marines, or with Tau or Eldar. I play Chaos Space Marines. If I wanted all that stuff I'd just play those armies, but instead I put up with unbalanced rules because I love the dark side and I always will. Cheers guys I'm out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I think my overall feeling is just that I see so much negativity these days, like chaos players have forgotten that they are allowed to be happy or something. Cheers guys I'm out. Spend more time in the PCA forums, man. That's what cheers me up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonlover Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 If Heinrich spends any more time in the PCA, his hands will turn into paintbrushes. I desperately want this rumour to be true, but am trying to remain cautiously pessimistic in case it turns out to be total bunk. Dragonlover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 If Heinrich spends any more time in the PCA, his hands will turn into paintbrushes. Is that what he rolled on the Boon table after defeating the Call of Chaos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Hey, I'm mot saying I don't want the things. If I have to pay for them I will, but I can be grumpy about it and I think that's justified at least. You're definitely entitled to be grumpy. I think my overall feeling is just that I see so much negativity these days, like chaos players have forgotten that they are allowed to be happy or something. I've definitely done my fair share of raging against the injustices we've suffered, but I think Veteran Sergeant's comment the other day just triggered something in me, where I realized how much time I had spent being unhappy and pissed about this or that with chaos. There's always going to be something that sucks with Chaos. There's always going to be this army or that which has better rules. I realized I just need to stop bitching and just enjoy the game for what it is, a game. I like the models, I enjoy the fluff and write my own, and I like rolling dice. So what if I don't have something that compares with loyalist Space Marines, or with Tau or Eldar. I play Chaos Space Marines. If I wanted all that stuff I'd just play those armies, but instead I put up with unbalanced rules because I love the dark side and I always will. Cheers guys I'm out. Dude, get with the programme. You talk about how you are a CSM player, but you are not. You talk about being happy; that is not what CSM is about. CSM isn't being angry and bitter, full of hatred and bile. CSM is about deluding ourselves into thinking the old days were better, and soon they will return, and the Imperium of Man will burn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperialis_Dominatus Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Is it delusion to think the old days were better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Nope thats called Nostalgia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 when the people complaining about negativity continuously show less creativity and variance in their arguments than the ones they are complaining about, you have definitve proof that the old days were in fact better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 27, 2014 Author Share Posted January 27, 2014 I apologize for my excessively rude comment yesterday. Accusations of 'just wanting 3.5 back' is kind of a sore spot for me, something I'm frequently accused of whenever I criticize the current book, even though in some ways the current book looks a lot more like what I'd want a chaos book to look like than the 3.5 book did (focus on chaos in the 41st millenium, rather than over-worship of 30k, presence of cultists as a regular element rather than a legion exclusive, clear distinction between mark and cult, etc). In other news, 40k radio is reiterating a rumor of new chaos model releases, but puts the release date close to summer rather than Febuary/March. Also mentioned possibility of a supplement, but for the warband from Dark Vengeance, as opposed to a more general vet skills expansion. To try and rephrase my feelings on the matter to emphasize the positive a bit more: I think there may be one or two abilities worth taking for units people already use (relentless for noise marines maybe, or perhaps tank hunter for autohavocs), but in general I don't think it's going to tip the scales for any of the several CSM units that people don't already take, since most of those units aren't taken because they're too expensive for what they do already, and paying more, even for reasonably priced abilities (and to be fair to GW if the rumor is true, these abilities do sound quite reasonably priced), would only exacerbate the underlying problem. In particular, extensive use of these abilities (on several or all units in an army, for instance), will see points costs adding up rather quickly, especially when including the votlw prereq, and the added abilities on the units you field would have a hard time making up for the loss of the unit or units you had to drop to buy them (not to mention the units you had to drop to buy the units these abilities go on, if you weren't already taking those units, anyway). Even so, it would be nice to have a few extra options for customizing CSM units, and a bit more incentive to consider the vet upgrade. Honestly, if the rumors were promising any more, I'd view them as considerably less plausible, as with the Book of Nurgle & Book of Khorne rumors off 4chan a while back, which were (more?) blatant wishlisting. If these rumors do prove to be true, than the worst case scenario is people end up just not using the new abilities, so it's not like it could make anything worse, and I'm particularly excited at the prospect of new fluff coming along with these rules to flesh out a bit what the Chaos Legions have been up to and how they've changed since the heresy. That's an aspect of their characterization that has always been lacking, imo, at least apart from the Black Legion. As I'm fond of saying, 10,000 years of warp exposure should mean something. So all in all I'm very hopeful for this rumor, and will be happy (or at least, less unhappy? Excited anyway) if/when we see some sort of confirmation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I apologize for my excessively rude comment yesterday. Accusations of 'just wanting 3.5 back' is kind of a sore spot for me, something I'm frequently accused of whenever I criticize the current book, even though in some ways the current book looks a lot more like what I'd want a chaos book to look like than the 3.5 book did (focus on chaos in the 41st millenium, rather than over-worship of 30k, presence of cultists as a regular element rather than a legion exclusive, clear distinction between mark and cult, etc). In other news, 40k radio is reiterating a rumor of new chaos model releases, but puts the release date close to summer rather than Febuary/March. Also mentioned possibility of a supplement, but for the warband from Dark Vengeance, as opposed to a more general vet skills expansion. To try and rephrase my feelings on the matter to emphasize the positive a bit more: I think there may be one or two abilities worth taking for units people already use (relentless for noise marines maybe, or perhaps tank hunter for autohavocs), but in general I don't think it's going to tip the scales for any of the several CSM units that people don't already take, since most of those units aren't taken because they're too expensive for what they do already, and paying more, even for reasonably priced abilities (and to be fair to GW if the rumor is true, these abilities do sound quite reasonably priced), would only exacerbate the underlying problem. In particular, extensive use of these abilities (on several or all units in an army, for instance), will see points costs adding up rather quickly, especially when including the votlw prereq, and the added abilities on the units you field would have a hard time making up for the loss of the unit or units you had to drop to buy them (not to mention the units you had to drop to buy the units these abilities go on, if you weren't already taking those units, anyway). Even so, it would be nice to have a few extra options for customizing CSM units, and a bit more incentive to consider the vet upgrade. Honestly, if the rumors were promising any more, I'd view them as considerably less plausible, as with the Book of Nurgle & Book of Khorne rumors off 4chan a while back, which were (more?) blatant wishlisting. If these rumors do prove to be true, than the worst case scenario is people end up just not using the new abilities, so it's not like it could make anything worse, and I'm particularly excited at the prospect of new fluff coming along with these rules to flesh out a bit what the Chaos Legions have been up to and how they've changed since the heresy. That's an aspect of their characterization that has always been lacking, imo, at least apart from the Black Legion. As I'm fond of saying, 10,000 years of warp exposure should mean something. So all in all I'm very hopeful for this rumor, and will be happy (or at least, less unhappy? Excited anyway) if/when we see some sort of confirmation. No worries, and I'm right there with you. I have two salt shakers holstered and ready. I like the direction it sounds like they are going, however I don't think I'll be truly happy until the day they finally acknowledge that we do indeed have the capabilities to manufacture and use drop pods. The veteran skills are nice from a fluff perspective which I really appreciate (Night Lords not causing fear was absurd to say the least) but I'm under no illusions as to how game changing they are. Even the best of them, like relentless and infiltrate, are at best a throwaway pistol. Good for certain situations and for surprising your opponent, but they won't win the war for you. It still comes down to shrewd commanding and use of the units you have. Heck that might be one of my favorite things about chaos, the knowledge that if you won without using Heldrakes, then you probably earned it. I am a little nervous however about the whole 'updating legion fluff' section of this rumor. I've become traumatized when it comes to GW tinkering with fluff and I would hope that they collaborate with guys AD-B in the writing of this like they did with the Black Legion supplement. I would just hate to see any of the legions get a radical misrepresentation in a new batch of fluff. I mean it could turn out to be awesome but you never know with GW these days. I hope this isn't bumped back till summer, I like to use my summers for hiking, climbing and hunting. Last thing I need is something sucking me deeper into the hobby during the nice weather days up here in Oregon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Problem with us paying xtra points for everything in order to TRY and make our units stand up is that s/m's get the same stuff or better for free for deciding what color to paint their s/m's or for taking an already powerful spec character . So we pay more for every guy/unit and they still aren't as good as the s/m's we are supposed to be such a threat to. . I too am SOOOO tired of hearing about chaos players wanting the "over powered" 3.5 back . People want it (or something like it) back because A ) it was the last codex to have legion rules (BL should play different the WB's , IW's should play different then NL's) . B ) it was the last dex with which you could make many competitive builds and not be bored out of your skull after playing the same build 20 times. C ) last dex to have daemons in the dex. D ) last dex to have meny options and make you feel like you were actually playing csm. E ) other then maybe the IW all oblit build, how was it SO overpowered ?? It's not like it beat the tourney scene back then ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 27, 2014 Author Share Posted January 27, 2014 I myself am less concerned with 'radical misrepresentation'. I've always hated how the majority of the legions seemed to enter the Eye full formed, and look and fight and organize and behave and believe exactly the same way 10,000 years later after all that time of warp exposure and living in a realm where the physical laws of reality bend to the whim of mad gods. The stoic restraint and resistance to the influence of chaos seen in, for instance, the Iron Warriors or certain characterizations of the Night Lords simply should not have been able to survive that much time in the Eye, and while it would make existing legion fans as bitter as long time Necron fans were after their book was released, I myself certainly wouldn't mind seeing some rather dramatic changes in the 40k characterization of those legions in particular. Likewise, I'd love to hear more about non-rubric, post heresy Thousand Sons created or contracted or corrupted by Ahriman in his efforts to rebuild his Legion, resulting in a Thousand Sons legion where rubric marines would be the rare personal retinues of the Legion's elite, undying, sorcerous commanders, rather than the entirety of it's fighting strength. Similar adjustments to the characterization of the other cult legions would also please me. Of course, it would heavily displease existing cult legion players, so I'm not saying this what GW should do, just what I'd personally like them to do. I'd similarly love to see khornate sorcerers and khornate psychic powers for mortals and daemons, since the idea of a chaos god - beings literally made of magic, who influence the universe through magic, etc - that rejected sorcery altogether always struck me as rather ridiculous. So I guess I have a rather less than orthodox opinion on chaos fluff in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 other then maybe the IW all oblit build, how was it SO overpowered ?? It's not like it beat the tourney scene back then ! It was OP against people who tried to run 10 man tactical squads and stuff. like that . People hate [non chaos people] the 3.5 because chaos players could do shoting , melee , both , had differnt ways to play etc. They are forgetting that at the same time loyalist had 4-5+ dex that also let them play differnt armies , only back then they would have to buy a different codex to do it . It is strange because eldar are never though the same way . MEQ players just take it for granted that if eldar have a new dex they are OP and it is ok that way. When chaos sm have a codex that lets them play in different ways , it seems too much for other meq players . It doesn't matter that trying to put a demon bomb in to DG list sucked or that 1ksons thrall build was maybe fluffy , but sucked hard [like it is always with 1ksons] . Somehow in loyalist minds codex csm is not the mirror to codex SW/BA/DA/ultrasmurfs/etc , but just a evil ultramarines. There for it should have 1 build , preferably as loyal to codex astartas as possible . Ah and right now , as mali and other people said , it is unfixable . To make chaos interesting chaos would need to be rebuild from ground up and to represent different factions [am not even talking legion , but broder like 4 main chaos gods] it would need a rules base GW can not give to any chaos codex in 6th ed . To make legions , they would have to add legion tactics to mirror chapter tactics and even then it would never happen , because if true to fluff the rules would be excluding and not adding stuff to the things people may buy. That [imo] is the core of chaos problems . BA/DA are everything made out stuff marines have [all considering ally nowadays] + faction specific stuff. For chaos it is X/Y/Z unit - everything that is not fluffy. A nothing stops a DA player from adding a unit of sternguard to his army other then the price . A DG player has more barriers to over come to add 1ksons to his list and that is before any rules get added to boost/lower the sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune_Priest_Rhapsody Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I hope this isn't bumped back till summer, I like to use my summers for hiking, climbing and hunting. Last thing I need is something sucking me deeper into the hobby during the nice weather days up here in Oregon. Who you kidding there, Heinrich!! Are you referring to the 2 week period we sometimes get for summer??!! :P I don't understand why there seems to be this air of discontent here... If you don't like the codex, play something else!! Will getting all butt hurt about it help GW magically release something you are happy with?? Nope. Not even a chance of it. They don't care about one little forum full of folks hashing it out over a single codex line they produce. You gave them your money when you signed up for this gig, man. I am not pointing fingers here, or taking sides, but it seems to me that instead of educated banter, there's mokey poo flinging monkeying going on around here. Be THANKFUL we are getting new models, be THANKFUL we might get some silly little additions to our mediocre codex. But My dad always said, if you don't like it, try something else. He's the wisest guy I know... besides Martin Short. End of Line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 27, 2014 Author Share Posted January 27, 2014 Well, RPR, I'm glad we have you to raise the level of discourse around here by characturizing those you don't agree with as 'poo flingers'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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