RH Scouts or Bolter Accolytes?

[Gentlemanloser]

Which would you choose, and why?

 

RH Scouts get Infiltrate and Scout, and while be more expensive have T4 and ATSKNF.

 

Bolter Accolytes are cheaper.

[irwit]

I think your best scout setup if you browse the marine sections are scouts in a speeder with heavy flamer. However if its just lots of bolter shots you are after I'd go acolytes as you can easily prescience them with an inquisitor and also access better transports.

[Gentlemanloser]

What's the points difference these days?  4 points between the two?

 

I think the T4 and ATSKNF might be worth that.  Then you have infiltrate/scout on top.

 

I'm torn.

[Ania Redfang]

Also RH scouts fulfill your troops choice for allies, allowing you to access the cool SM stuff, which has some value I feel.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Red Hunter Scouts everyday. Sniper rifles are money, ask Kroot. Also, they unlock Centurions and Biomancy Terminator Librarians, which are also money. 

 

If you're gonna give Acolytes guns, give them storm bolters. 7pts is still dirt cheap. Bolters are just not worth bothering with. 

[irwit]

7 points is 40% more expensive than 5. Would you want 7 wounds for 35 points or 5? Even at 24 inch range its 7 shots vs 10 but inside 12inch its 14 shots vs 10. I don't think 5point scoring bolters are worth writing off.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

7 points is 40% more expensive than 5. Would you want 7 wounds for 35 points or 5? Even at 24 inch range its 7 shots vs 10 but inside 12inch its 14 shots vs 10. I don't think 5point scoring bolters are worth writing off. 

Yeah, like I said. If you want them to contribute meaningfully, go storm bolter. Otherwise, leave them bare bones and use them as cheap wounds to keep your plasma cannons or Jokaero alive. Bolters don't generate enough hits to be worth the investment. 

[Gentlemanloser]

At Rapid Fire range, Bolters outperform Strom Bolters for the point cost of Warriors.

[Grand Master Caloth]

But there are things in the game that bolters have trouble or can't wound, while sniper rifles wound on 4+, rend on 6's, and can precision shot

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

At Rapid Fire range, Bolters outperform Strom Bolters for the point cost of Warriors.

 

Which you will never reach, Guardsmen stats mean they die like flies to any serious attention. 24" however means they outperform other units with Rapid Fire weapons. 

 

 

But there are things in the game that bolters have trouble or can't wound, while sniper rifles wound on 4+, rend on 6's, and can precision shot 

 

I don't think sniper rifles are actually any good in 6th. They're slightly better, but they've been underwhelming for several editions now. I recommend Scouts simply because they give you the unlock of Red Hunters stuff, and they sport T4, 4+ armour and ATSKNF. They're still a backfield unit that dies to any serious attention, like Henchmen. 

 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Which you will never reach

 

What is transports, cover and target priority?

 

:P

[Quozzo]

Which you will never reach

What is transports, cover and target priority?

Which the storm bolters would also benefit from.

[Gentlemanloser]

Not getting into Rapid Fire range they wouldn't. ;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

What is transports, cover and target priority?

>transports

laughingmissilesides.png

>cover

laughingpathfinders.png

>target priority

laughingxenos.png

Putting them within easy charge, template, enemy rapid fire they wouldn't.

FTFY

Pls GL, if you're gonna troll, make it plausible.

[Gentlemanloser]

Pfft.

 

Just refuse to play Tau.

 

Job done! ;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Pfft.

Just refuse to play Tau.

Job done!

I would, but I'm the resident Tau player. This week I assemble my first Riptide...(shudder)

[Gentlemanloser]

Don't do it! :P

[IndigoJack]

While in the 13"-24" range band storm bolters are more efficient, there's nothing wrong with bolters. For 1pt, they give a model with almost no ranged firepower some teeth. I keep my acolytes in flying transports until turn 5, when I unload them within 3" of an objective. If there's an opponent already there, the bolters are already in rapid fire range and work just as well as storm bolters when firing at them.

 

As far as transports go, I still play my mech GKs, and I've won plenty of games against tau, eldar, and yes, even the dreaded taudar. Transports are throw away vehicles. Their goal is to get you to midfield where you're troops can maximize firepower. Movement is key. LoS blocking terrain and cover are your friends :)

 

Back on topic, if you're already planning on taking space marines, sniper scouts are a solid choice as long as you take more than the minimum five to fulfill troop requirements. Snipers are great at putting wounds where you want them (removing pesky specialists) and work great for hunting MCs. Rending is really just icing on the cake.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

While in the 13"-24" range band storm bolters are more efficient, there's nothing wrong with bolters. For 1pt, they give a model with almost no ranged firepower some teeth. I keep my acolytes in flying transports until turn 5, when I unload them within 3" of an objective. If there's an opponent already there, the bolters are already in rapid fire range and work just as well as storm bolters when firing at them.

Well, I guess if you have the points spare. But then why wouldn't you just go storm bolter? (shrug) This is exactly my point. You pay 2pts more per model, get your firepower doubled and never have to get in rapid-fire range. If you just want cheap scoring and don't care that Henchmen usually don't kill much (outside of monkeys or plasma cannons, mine usually just hide and absorb wounds, and I take storm bolters), just leave them bare bones.

As far as transports go, I still play my mech GKs, and I've won plenty of games against tau, eldar, and yes, even the dreaded taudar. Transports are throw away vehicles. Their goal is to get you to midfield where you're troops can maximize firepower. Movement is key. LoS blocking terrain and cover are your friends

You might as well buy more units of infantry then. A Rhino is nearly a plasma servitor unit by itself, or a decent sized squad of Henchmen. If you're taking Henchmen you might as well use up all the Troop slots, they're not durable in or out of transports.

Back on topic, if you're already planning on taking space marines, sniper scouts are a solid choice as long as you take more than the minimum five to fulfill troop requirements. Snipers are great at putting wounds where you want them (removing pesky specialists) and work great for hunting MCs. Rending is really just icing on the cake.

Without Rending they'd be completely pointless. As is they're barely useable, it's just that Scouts have little else in their ranged arsenal that is meaningful (bolters suck, shotguns suck, melee Scouts are funny but generally not effective). If they gave them their old WS4/BS4 back I'd be more inclined to worry about the unit, but that would further marginalise Tactical squads, so they won't do it.

[IndigoJack]

Well, I guess if you have the points spare. But then why wouldn't you just go storm bolter? (shrug) This is exactly my point. You pay 2pts more per model, get your firepower doubled and never have to get in rapid-fire range. If you just want cheap scoring and don't care that Henchmen usually don't kill much (outside of monkeys or plasma cannons, mine usually just hide and absorb wounds, and I take storm bolters), just leave them bare bones.

I don't think this is really a boolean. Bolters are a great budget option. I'm not denying that storm bolters are awesome (they are), but their price really adds up. For example, I have 20 bolter acolytes. To upgrade them to storm bolters, I'd have to pay another 40 points. Generally, I find better things to spend the points on.

 

You might as well buy more units of infantry then. A Rhino is nearly a plasma servitor unit by itself, or a decent sized squad of Henchmen. If you're taking Henchmen you might as well use up all the Troop slots, they're not durable in or out of transports.

They're plenty durable inside the transport. in fact, they're invulnerable inside while the transport is still working. The only way for them to get hurt inside the transport is if it explodes, and let's face it, light vehicles are far more likely to be wrecked than exploded. I also think you're forgetting on of the things that transports are great at; mobile LoS terrain. well placed vehicles can block your opponent's fire lanes and reduce your opponents ability to gun you down.

 

With

out Rending they'd be completely pointless. As is they're barely useable, it's just that Scouts have little else in their ranged arsenal that is meaningful (bolters suck, shotguns suck, melee Scouts are funny but generally not effective). If they gave them their old WS4/BS4 back I'd be more inclined to worry about the unit, but that would further marginalise Tactical squads, so they won't do it.

I think you're greatly undervaluing precision shots. The ability to put wounds where you want them independent of your ballistic skill is fantastic. Special weapons giving you problems? Snipe them out. Herald with a grimoire ruining your day? Snipe them out. There's a reason that every time you see kroot in a competitive list they've got sniper rounds. It's because a whole unit that can fire precision shots is the bee's knees.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

If you have better things to spend the points on, why not cut out the bolters as well? This is what I mean. If you're gonna bother investing in them, you might as well go all in. Same reason you don't just give Knight squads a single special weapon, you take as many as possible. 

 

Vehicles will only block LoS from certain angles. Most of the good ranged units in the game are mobile as well, and even the static ones can reposition to get a bead on you. It's an advantage that's nullified by higher firing positions or sheer mobility. 40k is replete with such units and combos. 

 

Precision Shots are on a 6. The reason Sniper Kroot are amaze is that they A: cost the same as a storm bolter Acolyte and B: you can take 20-man squads, plus Infiltrate. And they still retain the normal not-boltgun as well. Precision Shots aren't that great when you're digging for 6's and have to hope they don't armour/cover/invul the hit. 

[IndigoJack]

With laspistols, their odds of contributing are slim. Bolters give them some range and a better bite. Are they going to shred enemy infantry? Probably not, but they're definitely going to do more than a laspistol. As I've said, the storm bolters are a better option, but I don't think it's as clear as "storm bolters or nothing." Boltguns are a good compromise. I didn't buy the boltguns for games that they don't fire, but rather for the few games that I decide to deploy them.

 

I get the feeling you've never played against a good mech player. Going second is a huge advantage that allows you to counter deploy and basically force your opponent to react to your movement. Additionally, only Eldar and bike calv lists really have the movement necessary to get around my mech wall. In those cases, I usually just hide inside and get out only when I have to. Elevation isn't that big of a deal as there usually aren't that many elevated units and even then I usually get cover.

 

My goal wasn't to compare kroot vs scouts but more to show that if sniper rounds weren't worth it, people wouldn't buy them. I used to think sniper scouts weren't great, then I started fielding more than 5 of them. It turns out a handful (10-15) of scouts in you're backfield actually do a decent job at fulfilling a role on the battlefield (sniping at specialists, anti-MC)

[Gentlemanloser]

I used to face 10-20 Pathfinders regularly.  They might be snipers on steriods, but they always made an impact.

 

I'm sure I've mentioned the time the Eldar player managed to blow up one of my Dreads with a Pathfinder?  We guess he must have shot through the eye slit...

 

 

A Rhino is nearly a plasma servitor unit by itself

 

As is the cost to upgrade Bolter Acolytes to Storm Bolters. ;)

 

Keep them with Bolters, add the Plasma Servitors.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

With laspistols, their odds of contributing are slim. Bolters give them some range and a better bite. Are they going to shred enemy infantry? Probably not, but they're definitely going to do more than a laspistol. As I've said, the storm bolters are a better option, but I don't think it's as clear as "storm bolters or nothing." Boltguns are a good compromise. I didn't buy the boltguns for games that they don't fire, but rather for the few games that I decide to deploy them.

Bolters are BS3 are basically useless these days. The only reason Guard bother with their infantry (with even worse lasguns), is because of FRFSRF. If they couldn't get 3 shots out of each model in their Combined Squads, Infantry squads would never be used and all you would see are Veterans. BS3 infantry are terrible. Storm bolters make up for that with 2 shots per model at 24", plus they have higher spikes if you roll really well (unlike bolters, which outside of 12" are only ever going to generate one wound max per model).

So, like I say, might as well concede your Acolytes will never kill anything and just go laspistol. However, if you feel like you need it (against say Tyranids, Guard, Tau even), 7pt storm bolter is very much a thing. By way of comparison, two storm bolter Acolytes outfight a Tactical/CSM at 24". Storm bolter Acolytes also outshoot Kroot, Tyranid swarms, Guardsmen infantry, Eldar infantry...they die to any attention though, which is the drawback for being so cheap.

I get the feeling you've never played against a good mech player. Going second is a huge advantage that allows you to counter deploy and basically force your opponent to react to your movement. Additionally, only Eldar and bike calv lists really have the movement necessary to get around my mech wall. In those cases, I usually just hide inside and get out only when I have to. Elevation isn't that big of a deal as there usually aren't that many elevated units and even then I usually get cover.

Haha. I played mech and against mech extensively in 4th and 5th. So no, I disagree with your assertion most stridently :)

Mech wall died with the introduction of Hull Points.

Elevation isn't a big deal? I take it you don't play with any terrain higher than a Rhino, or you never fight MC's, or the larger MC's around now (like Riptides, Wraithknights, Exorcrine etc). Most smart players put their ranged support units like Lootaz, Obliterators etc onto the highest piece of terrain available. On Planet Bowling Ball, sure, elevation is mostly just model height, but I rarely played on purely open or low-terrain battlefields. Not to mention things like Flyers, FMC's and Skimmers can get into positions or flat-out ignore positional cover saves (because the firing angle isn't obscured by terrain, or they can simply move to where it isn't).

Cover saves are largely non-existent these days. Even if you can get cover, T3 is absurdly easy to kill, so it hardly matters.

My goal wasn't to compare kroot vs scouts but more to show that if sniper rounds weren't worth it, people wouldn't buy them. I used to think sniper scouts weren't great, then I started fielding more than 5 of them. It turns out a handful (10-15) of scouts in you're backfield actually do a decent job at fulfilling a role on the battlefield (sniping at specialists, anti-MC)

Allow me to explain (I'm a Tau player as well). Fire Warriors have been terrible for 3 editions now. Kroot are the only other native Troop option. They have bolters (essentially, AP6 but whatever), Infiltrate, and can come in 20-strong squads if need be. Sniper rounds take the unit from 'well I guess they're cheap' to 'hey they mass Rended that Tactical squad to death, hehe, oh and they Pinned them too, excellent'. The key point here is they're cheap and the sniper upgrade is dirt-cheap and basically mandatory, plus they can still fire the normal bolter when they're on the move/need dakka over quality. For 7pts that's a lot of work for a Troop unit. However, given the choice, most Tau players would go Farsight Enclave and get Crisis Troops as well, because Kroot alone aren't enough.

Scouts are 13pts, which buys them T4 and a 4+ save, neither of which matter much these days (T4 barely matters to most anti-infantry, 4+ saves the same). They also get a slightly better Sergeant to lead them, and heavy bolter/missile launcher access, plus Telion. Again, given the choice, most Marine players are Allying their scoring in or trying to make Bikers work (because just like with Tau, the poster child Troops choice is garbage tier). Unlike with Kroot, massing Scouts is terrible as they're nearly twice the price and don't even have 3+ armour going on (which is the one saving grace of Tacs, they're the cheapest 3+ save in the game barring Sisters, which no one plays).

Having said that, when you Allying in Marines for Knights, Scouts are the go-to choice. I would go min though and hide them, they're largely useless outside of being another tiny scoring unit you can hide in your backfield to quietly secure the win.

I used to face 10-20 Pathfinders regularly. They might be snipers on steriods, but they always made an impact.

Well, Pathfinders have two things going for them. One is their absurd cover save bonus. The other is the 5+ Rending, which does add up over the course of a game (plus its AP1 instead of the usual AP2). No one takes them nowadays cos of Riptides of course, but they were good back in the day, no dispute.

As is the cost to upgrade Bolter Acolytes to Storm Bolters.

Easy First Blood versus 'hey my Acolytes are mildly capable at killing other chaff/annoying Marine units'. Although in reality of course, I'm kinda moving away from storm bolters these days, as the plasma cannons do most of the work in the unit so ablative wounds is all I usually get out of Acolytes (barring the enemy moving into 24" I'm not moving from 36").

[IndigoJack]

Bolters are BS3 are basically useless these days. The only reason Guard bother with their infantry (with even worse lasguns), is because of FRFSRF. If they couldn't get 3 shots out of each model in their Combined Squads, Infantry squads would never be used and all you would see are Veterans. BS3 infantry are terrible. Storm bolters make up for that with 2 shots per model at 24", plus they have higher spikes if you roll really well (unlike bolters, which outside of 12" are only ever going to generate one wound max per model).

So, like I say, might as well concede your Acolytes will never kill anything and just go laspistol. However, if you feel like you need it (against say Tyranids, Guard, Tau even), 7pt storm bolter is very much a thing. By way of comparison, two storm bolter Acolytes outfight a Tactical/CSM at 24". Storm bolter Acolytes also outshoot Kroot, Tyranid swarms, Guardsmen infantry, Eldar infantry...they die to any attention though, which is the drawback for being so cheap.

You keep advocating the storm bolter, and I keep admitting it's a better option. The point I'm trying to make is that it isn't the only option. Bolters have the same firepower at <=12" as stormbolters, and half the fire power >12" while only coming in at 1/3 of the price. Believe it or not, my acolytes are within 12" of my opponent almost every game. IMO, the biggest drawback to the bolter is that I can't fire it and then assault.

Haha. I played mech and against mech extensively in 4th and 5th. So no, I disagree with your assertion most stridently

But not 6th?

Mech wall died with the introduction of Hull Points.

No it didn't. When 6th came out, the internet had a knee jerk reaction to the change in vehicles and a few loud voices cried mech was dead before they even play tested it. My friends and I took mech GKs to the Adepticon TT last year and did really well until the last round where Team BoLS mercilessly crushed us. I know a few mech in 6th articles from some good blogs if you're interested.

Elevation isn't a big deal? I take it you don't play with any terrain higher than a Rhino, or you never fight MC's, or the larger MC's around now (like Riptides, Wraithknights, Exorcrine etc). Most smart players put their ranged support units like Lootaz, Obliterators etc onto the highest piece of terrain available. On Planet Bowling Ball, sure, elevation is mostly just model height, but I rarely played on purely open or low-terrain battlefields. Not to mention things like Flyers, FMC's and Skimmers can get into positions or flat-out ignore positional cover saves (because the firing angle isn't obscured by terrain, or they can simply move to where it isn't).

Cover saves are largely non-existent these days. Even if you can get cover, T3 is absurdly easy to kill, so it hardly matters.

If it's elevated terrain, it's likely that I have some as well and strategically placed some on the board to take advantage of and use to block LoS. Otherwise, there is always going to be a blind spot on the other side of the rhino, and as long as I maintain enough distance, I'm going to have enough to take advantage of.

Allow me to explain (I'm a Tau player as well). Fire Warriors have been terrible for 3 editions now. Kroot are the only other native Troop option. They have bolters (essentially, AP6 but whatever), Infiltrate, and can come in 20-strong squads if need be. Sniper rounds take the unit from 'well I guess they're cheap' to 'hey they mass Rended that Tactical squad to death, hehe, oh and they Pinned them too, excellent'. The key point here is they're cheap and the sniper upgrade is dirt-cheap and basically mandatory, plus they can still fire the normal bolter when they're on the move/need dakka over quality. For 7pts that's a lot of work for a Troop unit. However, given the choice, most Tau players would go Farsight Enclave and get Crisis Troops as well, because Kroot alone aren't enough.

Scouts are 13pts, which buys them T4 and a 4+ save, neither of which matter much these days (T4 barely matters to most anti-infantry, 4+ saves the same). They also get a slightly better Sergeant to lead them, and heavy bolter/missile launcher access, plus Telion. Again, given the choice, most Marine players are Allying their scoring in or trying to make Bikers work (because just like with Tau, the poster child Troops choice is garbage tier). Unlike with Kroot, massing Scouts is terrible as they're nearly twice the price and don't even have 3+ armour going on (which is the one saving grace of Tacs, they're the cheapest 3+ save in the game barring Sisters, which no one plays).

Having said that, when you Allying in Marines for Knights, Scouts are the go-to choice. I would go min though and hide them, they're largely useless outside of being another tiny scoring unit you can hide in your backfield to quietly secure the win.

I agree, scouts are a bit expensive, but I still think you're severely undervaluing the scout sniper. You keep overlooking precision shots as a thing. 5 sniper scouts have a 18.5% chance of outright killing the marine of your choice (assuming it's not a character, and providing a 5+ cover save for the rend). 2 five man scouts up that too 37%. Sure, it's not something to build an army list around, but it definitely fills a hole in the GK codex.