RH Scouts or Bolter Accolytes?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

You keep advocating the storm bolter, and I keep admitting it's a better option. The point I'm trying to make is that it isn't the only option. Bolters have the same firepower at <=12" as stormbolters, and half the fire power >12" while only coming in at 1/3 of the price. Believe it or not, my acolytes are within 12" of my opponent almost every game. IMO, the biggest drawback to the bolter is that I can't fire it and then assault.

What kind of dream opponents do you have? Do they just never shoot your Henchmen? Seriously...the hell

 

But not 6th?

I still fight some mech armies, but I've abandoned it with Knights in favour of more dudes. I still take Ravens and try out PsyDreads (speaking of which I'm getting a second DK to sub them out for), but that's about it. Mech is dead man, outside of the Cancer Serpents of Eldar or the totally viable but uncommon AV13 wall Necron list. And even then, I think there are ways to break both those lists with the right tools. 

 

If it's elevated terrain, it's likely that I have some as well and strategically placed some on the board to take advantage of and use to block LoS. Otherwise, there is always going to be a blind spot on the other side of the rhino, and as long as I maintain enough distance, I'm going to have enough to take advantage of.

Maintaining distance matters little if they can Ignore Cover. Also, if you're hidden, it means you're not firing your weapons. Granted, Acolytes are usually hiding because they can't kill much without help (or upgrades), but we're discussing getting into rapid-fire range with enough dudes to matter. T3 is easy to deal with for just about any army, even T4 isn't that big a deal these days (thanks Riptides :( ). 

 

I agree, scouts are a bit expensive, but I still think you're severely undervaluing the scout sniper. You keep overlooking precision shots as a thing. 5 sniper scouts have a 18.5% chance of outright killing the marine of your choice (assuming it's not a character, and providing a 5+ cover save for the rend). 2 five man scouts up that too 37%. Sure, it's not something to build an army list around, but it definitely fills a hole in the GK codex. 

Or, instead of trying for chancy attempts to murder the special weapon or whatever, you could just drown the unit in firepower and kill everyone off. 6th edition favours the latter. That's why Sniper Kroot are viable but Sniper Scouts are pretty marginal. Kroot can choose to camp at 24" and plink away, or just move in and rapid-fire the hell out of you. Being almost twice the price for marginal advantages (T4 and 4+ armour isn't that big a deal), not to mention they're still BS3...I don't see it. I agree they're pretty much the only choice as an Allied Troop slot (Tacs are beyond garbage compared to our Strikes etc), but they're still pretty meh. 

[IndigoJack]

What kind of dream opponents do you have? Do they just never shoot your Henchmen? Seriously...the hell

a) My henchman are almost always in some sort of vehicle. This makes them immune to all damage until they're de-meched. Thanks to hull points, exploding vehicles are far less common so even if the vehicle is wrecked, I'm still not taking damage. It takes some dedicated firepower to de-mech henchman and remove them. I'm fine with that because that means my opponent isn't dumping as much firepower into my heavy hitters.

For the most part, you can't hit what you can't see. I use LoS blocking terrain to my advantage. Sure, it robs me of some shooting but my scoring henchman stay alive longer and they get to rapid fire their bolters for clean-up endgame.

I still fight some mech armies, but I've abandoned it with Knights in favour of more dudes. I still take Ravens and try out PsyDreads (speaking of which I'm getting a second DK to sub them out for), but that's about it. Mech is dead man, outside of the Cancer Serpents of Eldar or the totally viable but uncommon AV13 wall Necron list. And even then, I think there are ways to break both those lists with the right tools.

You keep saying mech is dead like it's a fact, when it's just your opinion. Mech may not be top-tier anymore, but really neither are GKs. I've had great luck with mech at local tournaments and at adepticon last year. You don't believe me that mech still works? Here is a list of articles from various 40k personalities that will back up what I'm saying:

http://www.3plusplus.net/2012/07/back-to-basics-how-rhinos-razorbacks-and-chimeras-work-in-6th/

http://www.3plusplus.net/2012/10/stop-saying-these-things-about-6th-edition/

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-strength-of-armour-in-6th-edition.html

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-strength-of-armour-in-6th-part-2.html

http://hulksmash-homeplace.blogspot.com/2013/01/vehicles-and-transports-in-6th-edition.html

http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2012/08/understanding-the-razorback-in-6th/

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/08/25/mech-isnt-dead-and-never-was/

Several of the authors of those blogs are GT winners and perform very well in competitive settings. If that isn't enough to convince you, that's ok. But just because it doesn't work for you anymore, doesn't mean that it doesn't still work.

Maintaining distance matters little if they can Ignore Cover. Also, if you're hidden, it means you're not firing your weapons. Granted, Acolytes are usually hiding because they can't kill much without help (or upgrades), but we're discussing getting into rapid-fire range with enough dudes to matter. T3 is easy to deal with for just about any army, even T4 isn't that big a deal these days (thanks Riptides ).

Ignore cover matters very little if they can't see me as most weapons still require LoS. Unless I'm pinned or have been boxed in by wrecked/immobilized vehicles, I can still move and create fire lanes. I generally don't care if I don't fire my weapons. If given the choice between exposing my acolytes to fire or hiding them for another turn, I'm likely going to choose the ladder. What the bolters (and storm bolters for that matter) give me, is a choice.

Or, instead of trying for chancy attempts to murder the special weapon or whatever, you could just drown the unit in firepower and kill everyone off. 6th edition favours the latter. That's why Sniper Kroot are viable but Sniper Scouts are pretty marginal. Kroot can choose to camp at 24" and plink away, or just move in and rapid-fire the hell out of you. Being almost twice the price for marginal advantages (T4 and 4+ armour isn't that big a deal), not to mention they're still BS3...I don't see it. I agree they're pretty much the only choice as an Allied Troop slot (Tacs are beyond garbage compared to our Strikes etc), but they're still pretty meh.

A full strike squad with 2 psycannons and psybolt ammo kills about 3.3 marines on average. You're opponent, being the clever opponent that he is, placed his special weapons towards the back of his squad. That's a significant amount of firepower to kill one guy (maybe it's a plasma gun that threatens to take the last wound off of your dreadknight). Snipers have a solid chance of removing that guy for a significantly smaller investment.

Here's a real world example for you:

I recently played a game with my white scar bike calv list against space wolves. Turn 4, I was preparing to assault some his troops to remove his scoring potential, but I was worried his last unit of long fangs would destroy my whirlwinds (can't remember why I still wanted them around). I used my snipers to remove his sarge (and their ability to split fire) and guaranteeing one whirlwind would survive. Added bonus, the removal of the sarge forced a moral check that caused them to fall back off the board.

My point is that you don't always have to attrition a unit away. Sometimes it's just more efficient to remove that one model that the rest of the unit exists to protect. Sniper scouts allow you to do that.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

a) My henchman are almost always in some sort of vehicle. This makes them immune to all damage until they're de-meched. Thanks to hull points, exploding vehicles are far less common so even if the vehicle is wrecked, I'm still not taking damage. It takes some dedicated firepower to de-mech henchman and remove them. I'm fine with that because that means my opponent isn't dumping as much firepower into my heavy hitters.

Not really. S6/7 isn't hard to spam for most armies these days. The additional advantage is those same units are just as effective at murdering your infantry. Hence why Serpent Spam and Necron vehicles are so cost-effective, they're lethal to most things in the game these days due to HP. Anyway, de-meching is an advantage for your opponent, as it means First Blood and he's ruined your mobility. It's why BA players have given up on Razorspam and go Assault Marines these days. 

 

You keep saying mech is dead like it's a fact, when it's just your opinion. Mech may not be top-tier anymore, but really neither are GKs. I've had great luck with mech at local tournaments and at adepticon last year. You don't believe me that mech still works? Here is a list of articles from various 40k personalities that will back up what I'm saying:

I read several of those blogs and sites on a regular basis. I'm not disputing they get wins with mech, I'm saying that 6th edition doesn't favour it and the actual top-tier lists rek our attempts at mech. I think I've mentioned this before, Knights cannot mech efficiently. Eldar can (in fact it's their only viable build), Necrons can, even Henchmen can do an amusing Razorspam on the cheap...but not us. So, in context, mech is dead for Knights and for most Marines. As time goes on, I think it'll be replaced by more infantry-heavy builds for other races too. 

 

Ignore cover matters very little if they can't see me as most weapons still require LoS. Unless I'm pinned or have been boxed in by wrecked/immobilized vehicles, I can still move and create fire lanes. I generally don't care if I don't fire my weapons. If given the choice between exposing my acolytes to fire or hiding them for another turn, I'm likely going to choose the ladder. What the bolters (and storm bolters for that matter) give me, is a choice.

So why upgrade in the first place? If you plan is to spam armour to overwhelm the enemy, just spam Razorbacks and min 3-6 Acolytes with no gear. 92 points per chassis (including cargo) for the twin-AC or las/plas variants is pretty good, it's almost as cheap as an Annihilation Barge and provides scoring as well. When you have 6 of those running around, plus extras that you can bring using Inquisition detachment, that's a decent mech force. Serpent Spam still beats it but eh. 

 

A full strike squad with 2 psycannons and psybolt ammo kills about 3.3 marines on average. You're opponent, being the clever opponent that he is, placed his special weapons towards the back of his squad. That's a significant amount of firepower to kill one guy (maybe it's a plasma gun that threatens to take the last wound off of your dreadknight). Snipers have a solid chance of removing that guy for a significantly smaller investment.

I don't use Strike squads. When I referenced 'screw Precision Shots just kill them all', I was referring to plasma cannon servitors. 3 of them clock in at exactly the same price as a sniper Scout squad, with added benefit of attaching Inquisitors for re-rolls and 4pt Acolytes as ablative wounds to put out front. Same range too (36"). I'm not saying you'll never get a Precision Shot or that its not a useful ability, but a dead unit can't do anything, whereas a mauled unit missing the plasma gun is still a problem you need yet more firepower to deal with either that turn or later. 

 

My point is that you don't always have to attrition a unit away. Sometimes it's just more efficient to remove that one model that the rest of the unit exists to protect. Sniper scouts allow you to do that. 

The problem is though, you're relying on 6's, and either a Rend+failed cover save or a failed armour save. If you just drown the unit in wounds they can't reliably save against, they're most likely dead or sufficiently reduced as to be either no longer a problem or able to finished off easily by something else. Again, as your anecdote demonstrates, Precision Shot on Rending long-range guns is handy and can be clutch, but alternatively if you just nuke the Long Fangs Split Fire doesn't matter either; they're all dead. 

 

The reason I advocate a policy of 'focus until the unit is gone' is because there is so much Fearless, ATKSNF or Stubborn out there to keep units in a fight to the last man. Also, objectives can be scored by a single surviving model. I have endless stories of that happening. Relying on failed Leadership tests, or lucky procs to get rid of the key model in the unit, is a less reliably strategy than just going 'that unit is dead this turn'. That's why anti-tank has largely shifted away from stuff like lascannons and even meltaguns, in favour of more dakka and multi-purpose (ie the rise of plasma and S6/7 massed fire). Relying on a chancy penetration roll to net you the kill is now less reliable than just glancing a vehicle to death. It's not that melta or sniper weapons are never good, it's just that their value has declined due to changing meta-game. 

[IndigoJack]

Not really. S6/7 isn't hard to spam for most armies these days. The additional advantage is those same units are just as effective at murdering your infantry. Hence why Serpent Spam and Necron vehicles are so cost-effective, they're lethal to most things in the game these days due to HP. Anyway, de-meching is an advantage for your opponent, as it means First Blood and he's ruined your mobility. It's why BA players have given up on Razorspam and go Assault Marines these days.

De-meching doesn't bother me, free LoS blocking terrain for me . Loss of first blood isn't that big of a deal most of the time. In general, as long as your scoring more objectives than your opponent, first blood isn't much to worry about.

I read several of those blogs and sites on a regular basis. I'm not disputing they get wins with mech, I'm saying that 6th edition doesn't favour it and the actual top-tier lists rek our attempts at mech. I think I've mentioned this before, Knights cannot mech efficiently. Eldar can (in fact it's their only viable build), Necrons can, even Henchmen can do an amusing Razorspam on the cheap...but not us. So, in context, mech is dead for Knights and for most Marines. As time goes on, I think it'll be replaced by more infantry-heavy builds for other races too.

When I say GKs, I'm including henchman. They're the only way to get enough mech saturation for mech to work. GKs mech just fine. In fact, I feel like psybacks are the strongest razorback variant in the game. It's cheap little S6 gun boat that doubles as a transport. Yes, my mech will eventually get wrecked, but not before most of my units make it to midfield, where I want to be. After that, who cares? Hopefully I've positioned the vehicle to be more of hindrance to them after it wrecks.

So why upgrade in the first place? If you plan is to spam armour to overwhelm the enemy, just spam Razorbacks and min 3-6 Acolytes with no gear. 92 points per chassis (including cargo) for the twin-AC or las/plas variants is pretty good, it's almost as cheap as an Annihilation Barge and provides scoring as well. When you have 6 of those running around, plus extras that you can bring using Inquisition detachment, that's a decent mech force. Serpent Spam still beats it but eh.

I'm pretty sure I've answered this several times already but here it goes. You upgrade because the bolter is one point. It's one point to triple your damage output at 12" and give you a chance to do something at greater range. The upgrade is worth it for the flexibility alone. I agree though, a good mech army needs at least 8 vehicles, 10 being an optimum amount (at 2000pts anyways).

I don't use Strike squads. When I referenced 'screw Precision Shots just kill them all', I was referring to plasma cannon servitors. 3 of them clock in at exactly the same price as a sniper Scout squad, with added benefit of attaching Inquisitors for re-rolls and 4pt Acolytes as ablative wounds to put out front. Same range too (36"). I'm not saying you'll never get a Precision Shot or that its not a useful ability, but a dead unit can't do anything, whereas a mauled unit missing the plasma gun is still a problem you need yet more firepower to deal with either that turn or later.

I haven't used PC servitors in a while, but when I did I found them a bit underwhelming. Their lack of mobility made it easy to avoid the plasma cannons and they died to a decent amount of attention. That said, I haven't played them since C:I came out and the ability to field 4 of them babysat by an inquisitor may make them more worth while.

My point is that you don't always have to attrition a unit away. Sometimes it's just more efficient to remove that one model that the rest of the unit exists to protect. Sniper scouts allow you to do that.

The problem is though, you're relying on 6's, and either a Rend+failed cover save or a failed armour save. If you just drown the unit in wounds they can't reliably save against, they're most likely dead or sufficiently reduced as to be either no longer a problem or able to finished off easily by something else. Again, as your anecdote demonstrates, Precision Shot on Rending long-range guns is handy and can be clutch, but alternatively if you just nuke the Long Fangs Split Fire doesn't matter either; they're all dead.

The problem is if I shot the fangs, I couldn't assault his troops, which I needed to do to control their moveme111111nt. In an ideal world, I would always have the firepower to attrition away all of my opponents units. But really, that wouldn't be very fun for either of us. I did what I did because it seemed like the best choice and in hindsight it was the right one. I know counting on 6s can be crappy, but let me try and put the odds of 10 snipers precision shooting an MEQ model out into perspective. I said the odds of those 10 snipers removing the MEQ model to be about 37%. By comparison, the odds that a TLMM will blow up an AV11 vehicle are 40%. If someone can look at a TLMM and think, "that's a solid anti-tank weapon," why can't someone look at snipers and think, "that's a solid way of removing specific models"? Again, they're not good enough to build a list around just like a few TLMMs aren't going to cover anti-tank. Scouts have performed well every time I've used them in 6th, and I'd rather have them in my backfield than a tac squad that's going to spend most of the game out of range.

The reason I advocate a policy of 'focus until the unit is gone' is because there is so much Fearless, ATKSNF or Stubborn out there to keep units in a fight to the last man. Also, objectives can be scored by a single surviving model. I have endless stories of that happening. Relying on failed Leadership tests, or lucky procs to get rid of the key model in the unit, is a less reliably strategy than just going 'that unit is dead this turn'. That's why anti-tank has largely shifted away from stuff like lascannons and even meltaguns, in favour of more dakka and multi-purpose (ie the rise of plasma and S6/7 massed fire). Relying on a chancy penetration roll to net you the kill is now less reliable than just glancing a vehicle to death. It's not that melta or sniper weapons are never good, it's just that their value has declined due to changing meta-game.

I agree, troops need to be attritioned away. Your opponent can't win if he can't score. Everything else though doesn't necessarily have to be, as long as your opponent can't contest all of the objectives that you're scoring. With the exception of the scouring as long as you're controlling at least one more objective than you're opponent (and you didn't let him rack up all of the secondaries), you're going to win. Agreed about the S6/7 spam. Higher rate of fire will perform better, even if the strength is lower, simply due to standard deviation. That's not to say that, lascannons and melta don't still have a place. Lascannons can hurt MCs at range, and melta is still the Imperium's goto for anti AV14.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

De-meching doesn't bother me, free LoS blocking terrain for me . Loss of first blood isn't that big of a deal most of the time. In general, as long as your scoring more objectives than your opponent, first blood isn't much to worry about.

I've won and lost games by a single VP. Trust me, secondary VP can and do matter. If you can avoid giving them up, the better your chances of victory.

I've explained this before, unless you can perfectly position the unit and the enemy can't reposition, you can't be out of LoS for long. Also, by hiding behind the wreckage, you're not advancing, which means the enemy doesn't feel under pressure. That's one of the few things I think Nids do well, they can put 100+ models in your face and say 'deal with it or you won't shoot after this turn at anything'. Granted, you often can deal with it (Gaunts are not renowned for their durability), but it's that pressure off 'you have to deal with this first' that can be crucial.

When I say GKs, I'm including henchman. They're the only way to get enough mech saturation for mech to work. GKs mech just fine. In fact, I feel like psybacks are the strongest razorback variant in the game. It's cheap little S6 gun boat that doubles as a transport. Yes, my mech will eventually get wrecked, but not before most of my units make it to midfield, where I want to be. After that, who cares? Hopefully I've positioned the vehicle to be more of hindrance to them after it wrecks.

Oh okay cool, we're on the same page then. It's just I've had circular arguments on this board before, with people who think pure Knight mech is a thing. It's not, it's Henchmen or go home.

I haven't used PC servitors in a while, but when I did I found them a bit underwhelming. Their lack of mobility made it easy to avoid the plasma cannons and they died to a decent amount of attention. That said, I haven't played them since C:I came out and the ability to field 4 of them babysat by an inquisitor may make them more worth while.

My point is that you don't always have to attrition a unit away. Sometimes it's just more efficient to remove that one model that the rest of the unit exists to protect. Sniper scouts allow you to do that.

Try them out. With re-rolls they are absurd, if you roll 'Perfect Timing' on the attached Inquisitor/Coteaz they become downright dirty. If you're worried about durability add a bunch of Acolytes to soak wounds.

You don't always have to, but in my experience if a unit is dead it can't do anything, whereas even a neutered combat squad of Marines can run riot through lesser infantry. (shrug) Both are valid strats, I just feel sniping out specials is a riskier one is all.

The problem is if I shot the fangs, I couldn't assault his troops, which I needed to do to control their moveme111111nt. In an ideal world, I would always have the firepower to attrition away all of my opponents units. But really, that wouldn't be very fun for either of us. I did what I did because it seemed like the best choice and in hindsight it was the right one. I know counting on 6s can be crappy, but let me try and put the odds of 10 snipers precision shooting an MEQ model out into perspective. I said the odds of those 10 snipers removing the MEQ model to be about 37%. By comparison, the odds that a TLMM will blow up an AV11 vehicle are 40%. If someone can look at a TLMM and think, "that's a solid anti-tank weapon," why can't someone look at snipers and think, "that's a solid way of removing specific models"? Again, they're not good enough to build a list around just like a few TLMMs aren't going to cover anti-tank. Scouts have performed well every time I've used them in 6th, and I'd rather have them in my backfield than a tac squad that's going to spend most of the game out of range.

Well, there is a very good reason. A multi-melta hits on a 3+ (if it's re-rolled it effectively is guaranteed to hit), if you're at 12" you get 2D6+8 for the penetration roll, which on average dice punches through AV14 (you need truly abysmal rolls to not pen AV11). Melta is a proven anti-tank weapon. An Attack Bike comes in at 50pts with one, Landspeeders about the same. They can easily reposition to get around cover saves and get into that sweet melta range.

The reason snipers aren't as effective is three fold. Firstly, snipers have to hit on a 6 (for Precision Shot to proc). You then need either a 4+ to wound then a failed armour save on their part, or roll a 6 to wound for a Rend and have them fail cover. Other people can run the math, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's marginal at best that you get your Precision wound through. Even with two full Scout squads firing at a unit, I wouldn't expect more than 1-2 Precision wounds happening.

Just to clarify, we are in agreement that Scouts are the obvious choice over Tacs. I am in total agreement, Tacs are complete garbage.

I agree, troops need to be attritioned away. Your opponent can't win if he can't score. Everything else though doesn't necessarily have to be, as long as your opponent can't contest all of the objectives that you're scoring. With the exception of the scouring as long as you're controlling at least one more objective than you're opponent (and you didn't let him rack up all of the secondaries), you're going to win. Agreed about the S6/7 spam. Higher rate of fire will perform better, even if the strength is lower, simply due to standard deviation. That's not to say that, lascannons and melta don't still have a place. Lascannons can hurt MCs at range, and melta is still the Imperium's goto for anti AV14.

Oh yeah for sure. I've won off of a single objective before, or that crucial shooting phase that took out an enemy Troop unit on their objective.

Lascannons and melta still have their uses, but increasingly people simply aren't taking the kind of targets they excel against. Also, plasma is better against MC's, none of them have higher than T6 (only GUO's which no one takes have T7). I can't even remember the last time I saw a Landraider.