What happened between Kurze and Vulkan?

[Wade Garrett]

Betrayed humanity to the eldar?

 

I don't see why it makes one into Petyr Baelish INNN SPAAACE to side with the (Craftworld) eldar instead of Crusade era humanity.

 

They at least recognize species other than themselves have a right to exist, and as far as I am aware not even Biel-tann has dropped "Compliance" fleets over exodite worlds and announced "Guess what! From now on you pay taxes to us, and we're taking the top twenty percent of your kids to serve in our army!"

[Memento Of Prospero]

Betrayed humanity to the eldar?

 

I don't see why it makes one into Petyr Baelish INNN SPAAACE to side with the (Craftworld) eldar instead of Crusade era humanity.

 

They at least recognize species other than themselves have a right to exist, and as far as I am aware not even Biel-tann has dropped "Compliance" fleets over exodite worlds and announced "Guess what! From now on you pay taxes to us, and we're taking the top twenty percent of your kids to serve in our army!"

 

It's easy to be nice to others when you are a dying species and want to somewhat survive. I am pretty sure Eldar were just as awful if not worse before The Fall. They birthed a God of chaos...

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Betrayed humanity to the eldar?

 

I don't see why it makes one into Petyr Baelish INNN SPAAACE to side with the (Craftworld) eldar instead of Crusade era humanity.

The eldar bit is more because in the books john is always being threatened by cabal eldar. The littlefingerness comes from betraying his betters when he is supposed to be working with them.

[Brother Usabius]

I get that constand betrayal and backstabbing can become anoying to read, but it's human. So what would you expect, that after 28 thousand years of misery humanty would be any better?

[Veteran Sergeant]

Betrayed humanity to the eldar?

 

I don't see why it makes one into Petyr Baelish INNN SPAAACE to side with the (Craftworld) eldar instead of Crusade era humanity.

 

They at least recognize species other than themselves have a right to exist, and as far as I am aware not even Biel-tann has dropped "Compliance" fleets over exodite worlds and announced "Guess what! From now on you pay taxes to us, and we're taking the top twenty percent of your kids to serve in our army!"

Do the Eldar recognize the right of humanity to exist, or do they lack the power to do anything about it?

 

Seems like the Eldar have been more than willing to kill humans unprovoked, allow them to die via lack of involvement, or to even facilitate their downfall so long as it suits the perpetuation of the Eldar race.

 

The lack of Biel-Tann compliance fleets has everything to do with the Eldar lacking the necessary power base to fight a protracted war with humanity. Dying race and all.

[Wade Garrett]

Well, the Cabal eldar claim to have come across humanity when we still thought flint knapping was bleeding edge technology, foreseen that we'd be a major power player, and left us to it.

 

Then again, the Cabal are a nest of liars and the eldar who makes that claim also says he thought it was the wrong choice and we should have been bombed into oblivion before we started walking upright.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Well, the Cabal eldar claim to have come across humanity when we still thought flint knapping was bleeding edge technology, foreseen that we'd be a major power player, and left us to it.

 

Then again, the Cabal are a nest of liars and the eldar who makes that claim also says he thought it was the wrong choice and we should have been bombed into oblivion before we started walking upright.

 

You need to seperate the Cabal and the Eldar as a race in your claims. They are not one and the same. The Cabal is a collective with representatives from multiple races, and the Eldar are the fickle faeries that they are.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

They are all Xenos filth deserving nothing more than a bolt round to the face. Ave Imperator!

[Carach]

well that particular eldar(s? i cant remember if theres more than one) from the cabal is probably part of the group on the part of his species because he agrees with their 'world view' - we already know that not all eldar agree with this though. the other races in the cabal we know next to nothing about so we cant comment on whether their entire races are wholeheartedly behind all this or not.

[Kol Saresk]

The other thing we have to remember is that(according to old Necron lore), when the Eldar and Humanity were made, the Eldar were thrown into war with the Necrons while Humanity was left alone to grow and develop. By the time the War would have been over, the Eldar would have started become the lazy, decadent society that would eventually give birth to Slaanesh and probably wouldn't have cared about Humanity and their flint knives. And afterwards, even if they wanted to do something, they couldn't have. Although we do see Eldrad Uthran attempting to stack the deck against the Traitors for some reason by trying to convert Fulgrim and then trying to save Vulkan's life. So we do have at least one Eldar who disagrees with the Autarch of the Cabal.

[Wade Garrett]

Hence why I said "the Cabal eldar', since that's the only eldar clique who claim to have been watching us since way back when.

[Phoebus]

That's what makes Sevatar's rebuke in "Prince of Crows" so delicious: he dismantles in short order Curze's disingenuous pretense at committing atrocities for the sake of justice.

Really? Because what I read was "Dad, let's not commit atrocities for great justice-let's do it because atrocities are FUN!"

I'm not arguing for Sevatar's morality - that's a different topic altogether. I'm pointing out that Sevatar himself saw the hypocrisy the Night Haunter was engaging in:

“Sevatar almost laughed. ‘Sire, you are no different. The Legion is disorderly and vile because it is cast in your image.”

...

“Where is the nobility in any of this?’ Sevatar gestured ... ‘You can claim a savage nobility, father, but this is far more savage than noble.”

Curze’s pale lips peeled back ... ‘There was no other way.’

‘No?’ Sevatar answered ... ‘What other ways did you try?’

‘Sevatar…’

‘Answer me, father. What politics of peace did you teach? What scientific and social illumination did you bring to this society? In your quest for a human utopia, what other ways did you try beyond eating the flesh of stray dogs and skinning people alive?’

‘It. Was. The. Only. Way.’

Sevatar laughed again. ‘The only way to do what? The only way to bring a population to heel? How then did the other primarchs manage it? How has world upon world managed it, with resorting to butchering children and broadcasting their screams across the planetary vox-net?’

‘Their worlds were never as… as serene as mine was.’

‘And the serenity of yours died the first second your back was turned. So tell me again how you succeeded. Tell me again how this all worked perfectly.’

Curze was on him in the time it took to blink. ...

‘You overstep your bounds, First Captain.’

‘How can you lie to me like this?’ ... ‘How can you lie to yourself? I stand here, inside your mind, ... Your way is the Eighth Legion way, now. But it has never been the only way. Just the easiest way.’

Curze tightened his grip. ‘You lie.’

Sevatar narrowed his eyes, ... ‘You enjoyed this way,’ the captain hissed. ‘You came to love it… just as we all did. The power… The righteousness…”

Excerpt From: Edited by Christian Dunn and Nick Kyme. “Shadows of Treachery.” iBooks.

So yeah, Sevatar is hardly a moral man. But again, it's not his morality that is at issue: it's Curze's objectivity.

As far Sev's "But the other Primarchs didn't have to commit atrocities to rule their worlds!" he's either mistaken or flat out lying.

That's not Sevatar's argument, though. He's not saying there were no atrocities. Rather, he's pointing out the tactics that Curze himself engaged in, ones that mirror what he condemns his Legion for. The sticking point between the two is the idea that Curze did what he did out of conviction, and that the VIII Legion only did it for pleasure. Sevatar argues that Curze, too, enjoyed what he did.

Sorry about the late reply, by the way!

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Sevatar is brilliant! Don't get me wrong he is still a foul traitor but he's like Khârn you just can't hate him.

[Augustus]

I read it: You chose the easiest method, you liked it, and then you tried to justify it. But we all know you chose it because you like it and so what?

 

An AA Meeting that's ends with them all going out for Booze.

[DarkByDesign]

Doh, I had them both and apparently am reading them out of order. Vulkan lives is what I am about to start. Thanks for the clarification!

 

 

Really, people didn't like Vulkan Lives? I just finished it and thought it was brilliant. I mean it was no Betrayer but it was no way near as bad as Outcast Dead or Battle for the Abyss. The only thing I didn't like was

John fugging Grammaticus

... I cannot tollerate him.

 

I think the spoiler is the only thing that saved the book. He's one of the best characters in the entire series.

I read Vulkan lives a second time as it was the worst book in the series. IMO (sorry) After the second read I didn't feel the same way about it. Actually thought it was great.

[Emperor's Furor]

I have to agree with the earlier posts in regards to treachery and wanting to see the bad guys get their comeuppance. I don't like seeing bad guys going around without being punished, it speaks to me on a very personal level for some reason. I find programmes like GoT and "Revenge" hard to read/watch but do so in the hopes the bad guys will eventually meet their end. It's why I like super hero movies, it's why I like sci fi in general because most of the time that's a key element, if bad things happen I want it to be for a reason and that reason is for the good guy to overcome it and defeat it. If I want my sci fi to be more realistic then I may as well stick to reality but that's why I read sci-fi and other fiction in the first place.

[Wade Garrett]

If bad things happen I want it to be for a reason and that reason is for the good guy to overcome it and defeat it.

Errrr...you do know the Heresy novels take place in the universe of Warhammer 40k, right?

 

Forget technology and science, forget progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war, an eternity of carnage and slaughter amid the laughter of thirsting gods?

 

That 40k?

[Molokai]

Sure you're not a sales rep for GW Wade?

[Wade Garrett]

If I am, they are criminally behind on sending me my last few months worth of paychecks.

;)

[Emperor's Furor]

 

If bad things happen I want it to be for a reason and that reason is for the good guy to overcome it and defeat it.

Errrr...you do know the Heresy novels take place in the universe of Warhammer 40k, right?

 

Forget technology and science, forget progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war, an eternity of carnage and slaughter amid the laughter of thirsting gods?

 

That 40k?

That doesn't mean the good guys never win, if anything it goes bad guys do something, good guys fight back and so on and so fourth in a continuing cycle.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, but the integral part of the background is that ultimately, the good guys are not good guys. The difference between them and the "bad guys" is their ideology and how they enforce their tyranny. There is no "good", only survival.

[Emperor's Furor]

If you apply our moral standards to their universe.  In their universe though it's quite obvious the Imperials are the good guys despite the way they going about it and chaos is the evil guys, and treachery is still an evil element in their universe on par with the way we see treachery in our universe.

[Kol Saresk]

And yet it is a Chaos Space Marine Chapter that gets the quote "Call with all your soul, little one. Call and we shall answer." and is then described as helping beleaguered fighters reclaim their planet from the Imeprium. If you apply our morals and our understanding of who the "good guy" is in the story, only does the Imperium which seeks to grind all to dust who do not yield to it appear to be the "good guys".

[Blindhamster]

I'm inclined to agree with WoT, the imperium is supposed to be the good faction, that obviously falls apart as we move ever further away from 30k toward 40k, but if you consider the ideals that the imperium was supposed to stand for, they certainly fit with 'good guys', just with the attitude of the whole is greater than the one, i.e. random imperial citizen # 23749202747 may well have a miserable life working on a factory world where they never see the light, but they work for the good of the imperium which at the time of 30k was working for the good of mankind.

 

Now... from the eldars perspective, they'd be the good guys, same with Tau etc. But as Humans, we are supposed to empathize with the imperium, and from what little we've seen of the the Big Es actual plans, and the fact Sanguinius is supposed to be the only one with the same heart/vision as the emperor, it does stand to reason that he is of good intentions.

 

 

<-edit->

 

And yeah, as Kol says, by the 41s millenium, I think the imperium is supposed to be less of a good faction, too many heretics and self serving powers in place. Not sure if people remember the quote from the 3e Rulebook, but the gist of it was that a group of people (inquisitors presumably) are manipulating the imperium to maintain control of it and push it in a new direction... I remember it seeming quite sinister!

 

so... 30k Imperium = Good Guys

40k Imperium = Grey Area, elements are good, elements are bad.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

I have to agree with the earlier posts in regards to treachery and wanting to see the bad guys get their comeuppance. I don't like seeing bad guys going around without being punished, it speaks to me on a very personal level for some reason. I find programmes like GoT and "Revenge" hard to read/watch but do so in the hopes the bad guys will eventually meet their end. It's why I like super hero movies, it's why I like sci fi in general because most of the time that's a key element, if bad things happen I want it to be for a reason and that reason is for the good guy to overcome it and defeat it. If I want my sci fi to be more realistic then I may as well stick to reality and but that's why I read sci-fi and other fiction in the first place.

Yes! Finally somebody who agree's with me. This is exactly why my favourite comic book hero is The Punisher. I realise that the traitors have the initiative so they will win more of the battles in the opening and I don't mind that but that just means the loyalists have to come back in a more epic way. Like Phall, I know that's gonna draw some flack from IW fans but part of the reason that was so great was because it was like FINALLY the traitors are getting shown up not only the traitors but a Primarch no less. I can live with traitor victories so long as at least one book at the siege of Terra (preferably written by A D-B) is almost entirely Sigismund hacking his way through entire ranks of traitors with laughable ease :)