Wade Garrett Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 The 30k Imperium are the good guys? Ask the diasporex that question. Ask the interex. Ask the inhabitants of the planets that faced Curze's claws and Angron's axes. You can ask them...but you'll wait a long time for an answer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285983-what-happened-between-kurze-and-vulkan/page/3/#findComment-3593422 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Or the Imperial citizens of Monarchia the Ultramarines shot down. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285983-what-happened-between-kurze-and-vulkan/page/3/#findComment-3593430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 the ideal of the imperium is still inherently 'good' however. There are monsters in there, but the ideal and the goal of the one leading the imperium is still good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285983-what-happened-between-kurze-and-vulkan/page/3/#findComment-3593437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Maybe. But that ideal doesn't survive. The "good guys" do not overcome. They survive, broken and beaten. Their ideals will be lost. Their defenders will become murderers in everything but name. Soon, the only difference between them and their Great Enemy is that they don't realize they are looking in a mirror and seeing the truth of their existence. Yeah, by our understanding and our morality and our way of deciding how the roles line up, the Imperium are the good guys. Even though ironically, the closest thing they come to is being the Dominion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285983-what-happened-between-kurze-and-vulkan/page/3/#findComment-3593446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 You mean Mengsk from Starcraft or the Draka, Kol? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285983-what-happened-between-kurze-and-vulkan/page/3/#findComment-3593448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 That could work. Or the Galactic Empire. Or the Combine. Or any other "For the Greater Good, we will remove all resistance!" faction you can think of. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285983-what-happened-between-kurze-and-vulkan/page/3/#findComment-3593453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 it's called humanity Kol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285983-what-happened-between-kurze-and-vulkan/page/3/#findComment-3593455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 The ideal of the Imperium is intolerance of all non-human and most partly-human intelligent life. I'm not going to dictate morality to the rest of you but I don't see the galactic human government of 30k or 40k as 'good guys'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285983-what-happened-between-kurze-and-vulkan/page/3/#findComment-3593456 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Yep. The grinding, crushing gears of where the good guy is only the good guy because he believes himself to be the good guy. Which illustrates my point. Some only believe the Imperium to be good because we want their to be a good guy so we pick the "least evil" faction. Others, like me, instead see a universe of lies and choose the faction that is the most honest with itself. Part of why I picked the Night Lords. They know they are monsters, they know the only people to blame for that are themselves and they know that they do it not for some ideal, but because they like it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285983-what-happened-between-kurze-and-vulkan/page/3/#findComment-3593461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 as I think someone else has already mentioned though, 40k/30k is all about shades of grey, there is no white, I'd argue there is pretty black in the form of Daemons/Dark Eldar possibly Necrons and probably some factions within Chaos Space Marines, but when you talk about good guys and bad guys in a setting like that, I think what you're actually saying is that X has a lighter shade of grey. It's worth noting that near humans were not automatically persecuted by the imperium of old, and are not necessarily even now (squats - which still exist in lore again now, Ratmen, Ogryns, Navigators, sanctioned psyckers etc) It's worth noting that the Interex were actually approached with peaceful intentions, it's only because an already fallen to Chaos Word Bearer betrays everyone that they dont have fully peaceful relations... hell, I reckon if that hadn't have happened they may have ended up being decent middlemen with the eldar and relations with them might have been a lot better too. Kol, the Blood Angels are specifically noted for believing in humanity, that their role is to protect humanity and that eventually corruption can be fought off... but i guess there is a reason they are considered so noble, they know they have the potential to be monsters but fight against it, they don't lie to themselves, they just strive to be better - and that is why I chose them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285983-what-happened-between-kurze-and-vulkan/page/3/#findComment-3593462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Imperator Vult Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 The interex were Erebus fault and we all know he's a whoreson! As for Monarchia Lorgars fault for turning them into religious idiots. I'll give you Cruze and Angron but the Primarchs were only created because the universe was that hostile it was a nessesity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285983-what-happened-between-kurze-and-vulkan/page/3/#findComment-3593466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 No, Horus chose to engage the interex peacefully, in spite of most of his subordinates screaming for them to be crushed. Remember, when the Mournival debates the issue with him, Loken says that he knows all of the reasons to go to war with the interex, but he wants to know why the Primarch is willing to give peace a chance. Had they encountered Russ, the Khan, Ferrus, Dorn, etc, the war would have kicked off then and there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285983-what-happened-between-kurze-and-vulkan/page/3/#findComment-3593467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 might have, we don't know that for certain - as it never happened, squats, ratmen and ogryns had to have entered the imperium somehow afterall! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285983-what-happened-between-kurze-and-vulkan/page/3/#findComment-3593471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Imperator Vult Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 as I think someone else has already mentioned though, 40k/30k is all about shades of grey, there is no white, I'd argue there is pretty black in the form of Daemons/Dark Eldar possibly Necrons and probably some factions within Chaos Space Marines, but when you talk about good guys and bad guys in a setting like that, I think what you're actually saying is that X has a lighter shade of grey. It's worth noting that near humans were not automatically persecuted by the imperium of old, and are not necessarily even now (squats - which still exist in lore again now, Ratmen, Ogryns, Navigators, sanctioned psyckers etc) It's worth noting that the Interex were actually approached with peaceful intentions, it's only because an already fallen to Chaos Word Bearer betrays everyone that they dont have fully peaceful relations... hell, I reckon if that hadn't have happened they may have ended up being decent middlemen with the eldar and relations with them might have been a lot better too. Kol, the Blood Angels are specifically noted for believing in humanity, that their role is to protect humanity and that eventually corruption can be fought off... but i guess there is a reason they are considered so noble, they know they have the potential to be monsters but fight against it, they don't lie to themselves, they just strive to be better - and that is why I chose them. Agreed Horus had every intention of getting on with the Interex hell if they had had the chance to explain to him what Chaos is maybe none of this would have happened. Also, brother the Son's of Horus AND the Thousand Sons were both learning trades so that they could benefit humanity when the fighting was over. If that isn't a belief in humanity I don't know what is. The reason they aren't 'the good guys' and fall further and further down the oppressing your own people route is because of a few corrupted cowards who ruin it for everyone. Think about it if Erebus had failed with the Interex and hadn't been able to corrupt horus I think Lorgar would have struggled to bring people to his banner he wasn't exactly well liked. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285983-what-happened-between-kurze-and-vulkan/page/3/#findComment-3593473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Monarchia Lorgars fault for turning them into religious idiots. So when the Ultramarines murder unarmed humans and blow up their cities it's the unarmed humans fault. All right. So when the Night Lords do the exact same thing, are the humans being skinned alive are similarly to blame? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285983-what-happened-between-kurze-and-vulkan/page/3/#findComment-3593476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Imperator Vult Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Did the Ultras skin anyone? The Ultramarines did like they were ordered and if I remember rightly Gulliman regrets having to do it. Curze does it because he enjoys it and because he thinks its a nesessity. There's a subtle difference between a soldier and a murder. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285983-what-happened-between-kurze-and-vulkan/page/3/#findComment-3593480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 he said it was Lorgars fault... rather than the peoples fault. Also, the Ultramarines are ordered to destroy the city, not kill the people, IIRC they even give the people a few days, maybe a week? to evacuate the city. Considering the City was built as a religious temple city that directly opposed the goals and ideals of the imperium, I can't say I'm surprised. Either way, completely different from night lords dropping in to scare the **** out of people then actively hunt them down to butcher. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285983-what-happened-between-kurze-and-vulkan/page/3/#findComment-3593484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Also, brother the Son's of Horus AND the Thousand Sons were both learning trades so that they could benefit humanity when the fighting was over. You're mixing up the Sons of Horus with the Ultramarines. They're easy to tell apart, really. One is the Marines all the other Marines want to be like, and the other is the Ultramarines. :p The reason they aren't 'the good guys' and fall further and further down the oppressing your own people route is because of a few corrupted cowards who ruin it for everyone. So the Emperor is a corrupted coward who ruined it for everyone? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285983-what-happened-between-kurze-and-vulkan/page/3/#findComment-3593486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Also, the Ultramarines are ordered to destroy the city, not kill the people, IIRC they even give the people a few days, maybe a week? to evacuate the city. Re-read The First Heretic. They were gunning down crowds and rolling Vindicators through the streets within minutes of their Thunderhawks touching down. Either way, completely different from night lords dropping in to scare the **** out of people then actively hunt them down to butcher. How? Do Night Lord bolt rounds make people more dead than Ultramarine ones? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285983-what-happened-between-kurze-and-vulkan/page/3/#findComment-3593494 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Vulkan Lives shows the Night Lords for what they were when they were working with the Salamanders. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285983-what-happened-between-kurze-and-vulkan/page/3/#findComment-3593507 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Imperator Vult Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Also, brother the Son's of Horus AND the Thousand Sons were both learning trades so that they could benefit humanity when the fighting was over. You're mixing up the Sons of Horus with the Ultramarines. They're easy to tell apart, really. One is the Marines all the other Marines want to be like, and the other is the Ultramarines. >The reason they aren't 'the good guys' and fall further and further down the oppressing your own people route is because of a few corrupted cowards who ruin it for everyone. So the Emperor is a corrupted coward who ruined it for everyone? In between warzones the Son's (possibly still the Lunar Wolves) were expected to educate themselves for a time when they would no longer be needed as warriors. Admittedly that may have been Loken's idea not the Leigions as a whole but the point stands. And no Typhon and Erebus are corrupted cowards skulking around in the shadows and corrupting, for the most part, honest warriors and silly impressionable Lorgar. Also, the Ultramarines are ordered to destroy the city, not kill the people, IIRC they even give the people a few days, maybe a week? to evacuate the city. Re-read The First Heretic. They were gunning down crowds and rolling Vindicators through the streets within minutes of their Thunderhawks touching down. >Either way, completely different from night lords dropping in to scare the **** out of people then actively hunt them down to butcher. How? Do Night Lord bolt rounds make people more dead than Ultramarine ones? If I recall they do open fire to prove their intent but then they do allow the city to evacuate otherwise how would Cyrene (I think that was her name) have survived? If the most numerous Leigion in the galazy want to kill a city to the man they will do it. Why even deploy to the surface if their objective was to kill the city outright an orbital bombardment with no warning would have been much more effective. Both are bolt rounds true but where as an Ultramarine will shoot you in the head and move on a Night Lord will shoot you in the gut then stand over you laughing as you try and force your innards back in. The Ultramarines had a job, however distasteful, and completed it. Had the Night Lords culled Monarchia Curze would have stood before Lorgar wearing the skin of the planets priests while his chaplains throttled babies infront of their mothers and the Word Barers alike. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285983-what-happened-between-kurze-and-vulkan/page/3/#findComment-3593509 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 The Ultramarines did give the people of Monarchia a deadline. However, they enforced that deadline with lethal force. Cyrene even recalls how at one point a land speeder was pointing a gun at her from her balcony. It wasn't an evacuation the people of Monarchia did not agree to and were forced into. And while Guilliman regrets it, there is no guarantee the Ultramarines do. The events concerning the Interex are a perfect reason for showing this. Horus wanted peace. The Luna Wolves wanted war. And true, the Blood Angels do have noble ideals. But correct if I'm wrong, when they do become monsters, don't they just use the monsters as weapons of war? And like any good Astartes, they hide behind their nobility when they kill women and children. But that is just how I perceive it. I meant to point out that when we choose a faction in this universe, we are inevitably forcing our own ideals and beliefs onto it. Vulkan Lives shows the Night Lords for what they were when they were working with the Salamanders. Any piece of writing involving the Night Lords "shows them what they are for". They have no "great ideals", no nobility, no nothing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285983-what-happened-between-kurze-and-vulkan/page/3/#findComment-3593513 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 i assume the killing of women and children is a reference to the nigh lords series by ADB? they are on a chaos ship, and not just a ship crewed by chaos marines, but one that literally has mutated by the warp into sentience, the people on the ship were damned in the first place, admittedly not through their own choices, but because of the night lords, likewise, the people in that scene are collateral damange, unlike the humans on that self same ship that are killed for sport by the Night Lords. And as noted above, I think that is where the difference lies, some fight and kill as soldiers, where there is occasionally collateral, if we get to see those characters after those events they tend to be portrayed as showing regret for their actions. Others are quite literally murderers or cultists and kill for pleasure. The Death Company are given a final chance to die a warriors death, not a dissimilar tradition to some of our own old worlds. If they don't die in that fight, they are put down by Astorath as of the latest background. For more info on chapters outlook I always go back to the Deathwatch rulebooks which do an excellent job of characterising the different chapters (including the traitor ones thanks to first founding/Black Crusade). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285983-what-happened-between-kurze-and-vulkan/page/3/#findComment-3593523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Like I said, as I perceive it, they hide what they do behind the idea of nobility. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285983-what-happened-between-kurze-and-vulkan/page/3/#findComment-3593530 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Cyrene survived because she ran. Seriously, it's on page...3-5 of the First Heretic. The Ultramarines land and deliver their ultimatum, Cyrene questions them, the crowd presses in, and she runs as bolters begin to bark behind her. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285983-what-happened-between-kurze-and-vulkan/page/3/#findComment-3593534 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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