What would be your Aettguard allied force.

[Grimtooth]

So reading Battle of the Fang, yet again and caught something.

 

So after Battle of thw Fang was released, there was diacussiin about building and converting some IG into Aettguaed. However I saw some resistance towards it saying that Aettguard would have been been relegated to being on Fenris. But with another reread, in the prologue of the book when the Wolves ship is heading into the Gangava system, Aettguard are described as being aboard and patrolling as security.

 

So to reignite some Aettguard discussion, lets toss out some ideas for Aettguard ship detachments!

 

My personal opinion is that ship detachments would not be reinforced with armoured elements as kuch as those on Fenris. I see a ship bound detachment servng two roles, day to day ship security and also a supplement to base camp security once deployed to a planet. These guys would also be more elite then those left on Fenris as they would be part of the initial combat drop to establish a base camp along with the Wolves.

 

HQ: I see the HQ being nothing more then being just a little more badass then his troops. He isnt commanding a battalion or regiment, he has his veteran unit that eacy and everyone probably has about the same amount of combat experience then him. He just happened to be a little kore that set him apart enough to be chose to lead. Think senior non-commisioned officer versus officer.

 

Troops: As i said above the unit would be elite and veterans. Much more then the Aettguard on Fenris as they would have to also be combat drop capable and experienced. Heavy weapon teams would be optional in the role of deployed base defense supplementation. Variable special weapon loadout to match the needs of the mission.

 

No psyker contingents! The Wolves use psykers to navigate and communicate, but I do not think they would allow them within the ranks of the Aettguard with their views on maleficarum.

 

Transports: Going with either Chimera or flyer, which like the weapons, as mission would dictate. Flyer if going in part of a drop pod and storm eagle assault or via Chimera if part of a mechanized assault after a beachhead was estaboished.

 

Armor: None. Heavy armor requires a heavy support tail that would not be conduit to the Wolves way of warfare. The detachment would need to be as fluid as the Wolves, wituin their human capacity so to speak. Heavy armor beyond what the Wolves already have would be a logistics issue.

 

Fast: Other then flyers as transports, again with the logistacl support that mirrors tue reason why armor would not be feasible.

 

Thoughts?

[maverik_girl]

I can't see them with chimera's or any troop imperial guard flyers as their operations would be based on their actual command ship or dropship/shuttle. I could however see some salamander command vehicles and even a centaur artillery tractor for perimeter patrols. They would maybe have several sentinels equipped a powerlifters.

[Vash113]

I've already built a small Skaerl detachment to field alongside my Space Wolves, so far it goes as follows:

 

The Skaerls (Imperial Guard Ally Detachment)

 

Riven Guard Pack Skorm (Company Command Squad: 7)

-Rivenmaster Skorm Iron-Fist (Colonel Ironhand Straken), Vox-Caster, Medi-Pack, Meltaguns x2, Bodyguards x2

Total: 230

 

Skaerl Pack Brynjolf (Veteran Squad:10)

-Huskaerl Brynjolf Battle-Rager (Gunnery Sergeant Harker), Vox-Caster, Grenade Launchers x3

Total: 145

 

Skaerl Pack Wulfric (Veteran Squad: 10)

-Huskaerl Wulfric Fire-Brand (Sergeant Bastonne), Vox-Caster, Heavy Flamer, Flamers x2

Total: 165

 

Valkyrie Squadron (2 Gunships)

    Valkyrie Assault Carrier – Skadi

    -Multiple Rocket Pods, Heavy Bolter Sponsons

    Total: 140

 

    Valkyrie Assault Carrier – Hel

    -Multiple Rocket Pods, Heavy Bolter Sponsons

    Total: 140

 

Infantry: 27

Fliers: 2

Total: 820 Points

 

I went with a very veteran force, using three different special characters representing Skaerls who may have gotten partway to becoming Space Wolves before failing for whatever reason but still quite strong and capable in their own right and with weapons and wargear above and beyond what most Imperial citizens or Imperial Guardsmen can get their hands on. The Valkyrie's I'm using for no other reason than A: they are cool and B: the name, I don't really have a logical or fluff reason that they should be there. I'll likely add some Leman Russ Exterminator's in future since we used to be able to field them anyway.

[hendrik]

as far as fluff goes i'm pretty sure we don't have any sources implying/mentioning any aettguard fighting on a planet other than fenris, and all references of them are either fighting on fenris, or being on board of one of the many starships the wolves have. this make sense, since no chapter is allowed to command a army of humans due to not wanting to repeat the horus heresy again. this essentially boils down to the fact that space marine chapters will only have a planetary defence force (which as the name suggests, stays on their planet to defend it!) and bondsmen/servitors working on their ships. This would mean the aettguard would only see combat:

-if fenris is under attack

-in space combat, including their vessels being boarded.

 

now i'm not sure if battle of the fang makes any mention of chimeras and the likes but given that how fenris and the fang is build i'm assuming most transports will be arvus lighters etc and nothing thread based.(since these will have trouble moving in the fenrisian climate).

 

I don't aggree with ramses his idea that the aettguard would provide basecamp security, mostly due to the fact that this will on most occasions be an already well established basecamp by the imperial army/PDF force of the planet on which the conflict is happening (for examples see wolfs honour), + it would make the space ship less defended, which is essentially their one and only task. wasn't the patroling reference  about ON the ships, or the ships patrolling the area?(it's been a long while since i read it.)

 

in addition, due to them being only an ON ship detachment the only vehicles they would have access too would be designed with a function on the ship. these IMO would include:
-transporting personnell to their battle/workstations

-lifting duties etc
-fire brigade duties
basicly only support vehicles.

 

Ofcourse this isn't what many wish to hear since having a small private human army to deploy with your space wolves would be rather cool, however after the horus heresy there have been made rather strict lines of what the astartes can and can't do. Creating their own standing private army is unfortunatly one of the can't-s.

 

this doesn't mean the aettguard will never-ever have fought on a planet toher than fenris (heck, their ships might crash, whatever doom scenario) but it will definetly not be standard practice.

 

I based this oppinion on the following:

-the clear separation of the forces by the high lords of terra.

-no references (that i'm aware of) of the aettguard/bondsmen on the ship being deployed in combat.

[Cate]

I always imagined that most chapters brought ordinary troops with them as guards for their camps, supply camps, evac areas, medi camps, etc,  if they believed that there would be a prolonged war. Sure there would always be a couple of astartes left in the camps, but most of the staff would be "ordinary humans" like the Aett.

If i built an Aett guard list, based on the iG codex, it would be something like this, I am building this fluffy and not for a competition or so.

 

HQ

Lord Commissar (An Aett guard colonel taking no flak from his soldiers. Cowards will be shot!)

 

Troops

Veteran squads, tooled up with heavy weapon squads 

 

Heavy

Hydras for Anti air, and/or swarm killing

 

Points roughly 500

 

This is a very static list as many IG list are, but I see that If the Wolves brought down their Aett guard they would only be there for defense of a specific point and nothing else.

 

/C

[Vash113]

Actually hendrik the Ragnar novels discuss chapter bondsmen serving to garrison the Shrine of Garm. Additionally while chapter serfs are very rarely mentioned in any Space Marine materials there are references to them being deployed as base security and siege engineer roles as well as the normal ship crew and garrison duties.

 

Ultimately there's nothing stopping Space Marine chapters from fielding at the very least small numbers of armed chapter serfs in the field, especially in the protection of areas under the nominal or direct protection of that chapter, as long as these deployments don't reach the level of the Tyrant's Legion. We know various Chapters, including the Space Wolves, construct outposts of various kinds and patrol large areas of space, deployment of servitors and serfs to garrison sites not vital enough to warrant the deployment of Space Marines or in the field to serve support roles, again, not warranting the attention of an actual Space Marine are all plausible situations where armed chapter serfs could be seen fighting alongside their astartes masters.

 

Also remember the Space Wolves have never really been fond of following the rules as laid down by anyone other than the Emperor, that's why our Chapter Fleet still includes Imperial Navy Battleships.

 

Lastly I'd also note the Lost Companies, any force separated from the Fang for lengths of time due to practicality or philosophy could logically use bondsmen, who can be replenished from any planet where the force fights, as a potent combat support element.

 

Now I'm not saying it's common for companies of Space Wolves to deploy with several thousand armed serfs fighting alongside them on the front lines, but several dozen to several hundred armed personnel planetside garrisoning a resupply station, motor pool or repair facility would not be outside the realms of plausibility within the fluff.

[hendrik]

good point about the shrine of garm! since i don't own all the ragnar novels, can you give some more insight on what that garrison was? an actually combat designed force? or more a ceremonial guard,but with live weapons. any idea about their size?

don't get me wrong, i completly agree with the fact that the wolves would use bondsmen for a lot of duties. but somehow i still believe most of these duties would be fleet based (i would even dare to say the monitor networking and garrisoning of it is still mostly fleet based), even for prolonged campaigns.
bondsmen staging a coordinated assault seems something they would not typically do. (eg, rushing forward in chimeras/valkyries, while the droppods are still coming down(actually, that would be rather hard to do as well,since this would mean the bondsmen deployed before the wolves)). which is the sort of "army"i am talking about, an army which is on the frontlines with the wolves. the bondsmen  would be deployed far away from the frontlines, into well considered safe-zones in my opinion. On most occasions i still believe the fleet to be the major safe-zone due to it containing most of the supplies,etc,right?

 

a lot of this topic is actually about the logistics of war associated with a space marine chapter. does anyone know if there is good reference material out there on how space marines/space wolves resupply their troops and armour? I always believed most of the supplies will always remain fleet based, while a small (but still significant amount will be droppodded/transported down into cleared safezones to establish a small on-planet resupply zone for amunitions etc., thus creating very little need for an on-planet force associated with the wolves.

[Grimtooth]

Good discussion!

 

I persinally don't see the Wolves content with just letting any human be responsible for helping secure any type of base camp/drop zone.

 

On a logistical level, I think to the instance of Ragnar getting picked up by the Thunderhawk in the crater. So of course that Thunderhawk might have and Iron Priest keeping an eye on it with his thralls. Bondsman would also be part of that logistical support. So with said bondsman present, I would see Aettguard in a role of being the security element for that equipment and personnel. The Wolves sure as hell would not be pulling guard duty for their own personnel. Even in the presence of a much larger IG camp, I still think that the Wolves would carve out their own niche within the larger camp with their Aettguard being part of the security force.

 

I would backtrack off the notion that Chimera would be part of any mechanized attack. But I would still keep them with the concept of at least running perimeter patrols of a base camp/drop site.

[Grimtooth]

So with rereading comes more info,

 

So on pages 38-39 in BotF we have confirmation that each Great Company has it's own Aettguard. We are also given the specific number of Aettguard per rivenmaster which is said to be 500 kaerls. Later on when Greyloc is in counsel with Bjorn he mentions that he jas a few thousand Aettguard. If we assume few to be more then a couple (2) yet less then 4, that puts a guess around 3k Aettguard per Great Company.

 

So,

 

3000 +/- Aettguard per Great Company would be around 6 rivenmasters, 1 for every 500 kaerls. With numbers like this I dont see how they wouldnt be used in their role as a guard force at base camps or drop sites.

[PupLord]

Good discussion indeed. One aspect of the Vlka Fenryka that appeals to me personally is the down-to-earth kinship and understanding of the little guy. Due to a cultural and I guess traditional feeling of togetherness with the mortal tribes on Fenris makes the Sky Warriors more sympathetic towards the struggles of the "mere mortals" akin to the happenings around the 1st Armageddon War. This side of the Wolves that I like as stated before, is also a strong reason I can see, and would like to see even more, a combined-arms joint force effort the Wolves would have together with their Aettguard. Of course the approach would be very different than say the Wolves fighting side by side with another Astartes Chapter but useful nevertheless. The guardsmen have their inherent weaknesses and strengths so it would make sense that the Wolves would use both to their advantage when the theatre of war dictates it. So I guess what I am basically saying is that I agree with you Brother Ramses - the Aettguard could be seen as a part of a combined strikeforce mission together with the Sons of Russ on some occasions.

What I disagree with is the presence of psykers in the Aettguard contingent. The tribes of Fenris as well as the Rout to some degree, hold their shamans or seers or rune priests in very high regard IIRC. The individual tribesmen from Fenris whose wyrd leads them to read the runes or commune with the world wolf are sometimes chosen as candidates for ascension to future rune priests, again IIRC. This leads me to think that these seers / priests would be regarded as highly influential inividuals to all Fenrisians including the members of the Rout. Even to the point that the Vlka Fenryka would treat a mortal Aettguard rune priest (a Skjald maybe?) with a degree of reverence again due to the culture adopted from their home world. These seers are not meddling with Maleficarum after all they are keeping Maleficarum at bay and are even more important due to that reason alone. We don't have psykers remember, just priests as we said over and over again at Nikea. Remember?

That is how I see it anyway and is the reason my IG detatchment has an Imperial Psyker (Divination) as it's HQ. I even have an awesome model to represent that. Same as this guy with a laspistol added though (this paintjob is NOT mine - I found on google while searching for the minitaure in question):

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/4536/arulricwip30zo.jpg

The rest of the detatchment is a squad of Veterans (since I see the Aettguard as "more than IG regular line trooper") and a Valkyrie.

In my army background Krom Dragongaze, who prizes individual valour, has appointed a small detatchment of Imperial Navy escorts and smaller capital ships to escort his flagship Fafnir's Scrutiny. The Valkyrie Wing comes from that detatchment.

Which leads me to a question I couldn't find an answe to from the sources at my disposal. How are Valkyries deployed from a void anchored battlegroup / strikeforce???

A long post, again. Can't help it. Sorry.

-Pup

[hendrik]

i just delved into some information about the vessels we use, and here's what that yielded:

-battlebarge: crew 250.000
-strike cruiser: crew 50.000

-gladius class frigate: crew 26.000

-nova class frigate: crew 26.000

-hunter class destroyer: crew 24.000

 

Knowing that most space marine compagnies can fit in a singlestrike cruiser that boils down to around 250 crew members per space wolf(just took 200 as a great company size), which does sort of invalidade my arguement about the vessel missing crew should they be deployed off-ship. however i still believe the aetguard would rarely see actually action up close, unless the battle is going down south.

the rivensmaster daughter complaining about all the endless defensive training only strengthens that believe  (at least that's how i interpretate it) that the aettguard are purely a defensive force and are rarely deployed for combat.

 

in addition to that, i also couldn't find any references for vehicles of the aettguard during the defence of the fang. which would be THE occasion to use them since it's an all out defense in which the wolves mean to sacrifice enerything they've got.

 

*it has to be noted that apparently even amongst battlefleet gothic fans there is a lot of discussion going on about how much crew a vessel would actually have in comparison to what amount of troops they can store

[Grimtooth]

One thing to note Puplord is that the Aettguard are not drawn from the tribes. Maybe the very very first ones were brought in, but the Aettguard know the difference between a smelly and dirty gothi from a bonafide rune priest. In otherwords their culture has been established in an advanced culture where the role of a rune priest supercedes that of a gothi, if the role of a gothi is even known by the Aettguard.

[Grimtooth]

So yet another kernel popped up;

 

So on pages 48-49, Blackwing is giving a kaerl a hard time for wanting to requisition Nauro.  When she is being described we have this tidbit,

 

"She'd seen combat, from the skulls woven into her uniform, so most things in the galaxy wouldn't shake her."

 

This seems to be a bit more implicit of defending boarding actions and guarding the Aett.  Thoughts?

[hendrik]

to me that still doesn't mean front-line combat. combat could easely be boarding actions as you mentioned, or running a defence of the resource pools deposited on a planet during combat which than got overrun. it's something you can interpreterb quite widely,ranging from combat in a drunken mood (ok,perhaps that's an understatement)-up to being there when horus slew the emperor (the other side of the combat-spectra)

[Vash113]

On review Grey Hunters does not actually mention serfs stationed at the Shrine of Garm's Skull however it is described as a resupply station and it was described as being of considerable scale, it's logical to assume a sizable support staff of serfs and servitors even if many were raised locally rather than imported from Fenris.

 

As for bondsmen seeing combat I imagine there's a big difference between ship crews and garrison forces. Skaerls guarding the Fang are unlikely to see combat as the Aett has only ever been attacked twice, where-as bondsmen serving aboard the Great Ships and support vessels likely have to contend with boarding actions and ship security operations much more often and may ultimately be just as or even more experienced than Imperial Guard Veterans. There's likely a wide dispersion of combat experience, as is expected from any body of soldiers.

 

Also the term "front line" is not as specific as it could be. Front lines, especially in mechanized and airborne warfare move dramatically from moment to moment, what was a rear echelon support position one minute could become the center of the most furious fighting the next and that would be "front line" fighting.

 

To clarify I would say that Skaerls do not likely perform assaults or advances, they aren't infantry support for the Space Wolves attacks. However it is entirely plausible to suppose Skaerls do see front line combat from time to time. Practicality would demand that repair and resupply facilities would need to be as close as possible to the fighting to keep an active force of Space Wolves in the fight. Weapons break, ammunition runs out, vehicles break down, armor is damaged. Long supply chains back to support positions is not feasible when conducting a rapid advance like the Adeptus Astartes and the Space Wolves are known for. Unless all of these supply posts are defended and crewed entirely by Space Wolves and Thralls it would necessitate the presence of Skaerls and Bondsmen who will more than likely be required to fight to defend these positions from time to time. 

I would not place it outside the realm of possibility for some Skaerls to be experienced fighting Orks, Eldar, Tyranids or even Chaos Space Marines. Now the number of Skaerls who have faced and survived those foes will certainly be a small percentage of the total number, some will likely have faced and survived such encounters, possibly even on multiple occasions.

 

Food For Thought: according to some accounts as few as three in ten soldiers in World War II actually fired their weapons, no matter how long they spent in combat, or even faced with the threat of having their positions overrun and the actual time spent in combat amongst soldiers in World War II who served for four years was as little as forty days. Ultimately just because you are on the front line, does not mean you are doing much actual fighting.

 

On the reverse the use of air mobility in the Vietnam War meant that soldiers serving 12 month tours spent an average of 250 out of 365 days in combat, vastly more than ground-pounding infantry in World War II.

[hendrik]

assault and advance, now those were the words i was looking for! i think vash captured what i meant pretty well. however in the all out lightning speed raids i think resupply will rarely happen through kaerl forces as their deployment just takes too long. a thunderhawk/droppod could bring in those supplies much faster while the same vehicle recovery (if it needed to be done swiftly) can be done by said thunderhawk as well. for basicly anything the kaerls can do on-planet the space wolves (marines in general) almost always have a faster/more effecient way. the only "standard" scenario where i see kaerl force deploying on planet is when they are fighting a prolonged battle without their spaceships support (which are not favourable terms in the first place) and the imperial guard lack the resources.

note that i'm refering to large forces here though

[Vash113]

Drop pods would take several minutes from launch to impact at which point the battle could have shifted and Thunderhawks could have to deal with significant anti-air firepower or restricted urban environments, dense jungles, operations in deep caves or underground tunnels and so on and so forth. I can see a variety of scenarios where ground-based supply stations and the use of bondsmen as a labor and security force would be more effective than air dropped supplies. Even so such resupply would only be necessary in extended combats, many if not most engagements fought by space marines are described as being very short, a sudden assault that breaks the enemy command structure and then they withdraw, no resupply would be needed for these operations. It's only when a foe is not so easily broken that such things would be required.

 

Also I would note again that there is precedent for serf manned landing sites and supply stations as well as the use of serfs as front-line siege engineers by various chapters. The Space Wolves might have more marines than most chapters but even so I don't see marines unloading ammunition crates from gunships when there are bondsmen or thralls better suited to the task.

[PupLord]

One thing to note Puplord is that the Aettguard are not drawn from the tribes. Maybe the very very first ones were brought in, but the Aettguard know the difference between a smelly and dirty gothi from a bonafide rune priest. In otherwords their culture has been established in an advanced culture where the role of a rune priest supercedes that of a gothi, if the role of a gothi is even known by the Aettguard.

 

Maybe so, but I would still argue that the culture of the Vlka Fenryka is an integral part of the Aettguard traditions as well. The gothi are respected by the Sky Warriors so it is only logical that the Aettguard would respect the gothi in a similar fashion. Living on board a space ship with the brothers Astartes will, in my oppinion, make the chapter serfs on board become more and more accustomed to the ways and traditions of the legionnaries on board even to the point of following the exact same traditions and customs.

 

I think the suggestion on using Aettguard troops as base-of-operations security etc is a sound one and I agree with those points. The astartes are the shock troops or the "heavy lifters" resulting in the everyday business of patrols, keeping comms systems operational and the logistical issues being most likely handled by the Aettguard. A cunning opponent would try to hit these weak spots while fighting against the Wolves so I see Aettguard gaining combat experience "at the back of the frontlines" as a possible and believable scenario.

 

-Pup

[frostclaw222]

Kaerls in a logistics support role dirtside I might be able to see if there's an established base of operations/FOB type setup, or a series of supply dumps. This would be most likely in a post-invasion, long-slog, third phase of operations, after the drop assault and initial clearance ops established a well-defined, defensible airhead (using air cav/air mob vernacular here, and I'm a fleet guy, so if I'm a little off, that's why). All that mumbo jumbo basically sums up to this: Kaerls would be utilized as camp guard, inner boundary security patrols, perimeter defense gunners, etc, with specialists (serfs trained by Iron Priests, fleshcrafter thralls trained by Wolf Priests of the gengineer and apothecary varieties, etc) also co-located within the camps. Insofar as equipment, I don't see anything bigger than crew served weapons, possibly some emplacements (flakk batteries of some sort, possibly a few Sabre Defense Platforms). Transport-wise, as someone above said, utility type stuff, Arvus lighters, Sentinel lifters, Trojans, Centaurs, Tauros (for utility rides, I doubt we'd see Venatus pattern), etc.

 

Dropship-wise, we'd be looking at bulk lifters like the Destrier that Abnett always references, not Valkyries. The kaerls' job is to get the Wolves to the field and then support them, ergo, a large amount of the first wave of kaerls would be coming down in the Thunderhawk Transporters with the first load of Wolves armor/APC delivery. After that, the airhead should be established, so combat transports would be inefficient and not required, so bulk lifters would be the preferred mode of delivery for prefab base camp structures, utility vehicles, etc. 

 

I doubt many of the kaerls would see frontline combat outside of boarding actions when in a ship's armsmen role. Dirtside, I think the only time they'd see combat would be if the Wolves were forced to fall back to the base camp or something slipped behind the lines and made a strike on camp (I'm thinking infiltrating Nids, kommandos, Eldar, teleporting Crons, and the like here). Even then, I think whatever Wolves were recovering and rearming in the camp would take the fore, and the Aettguard would function in a support role. 

 

Let's remember, these guys were mustered in bulk at the Battle of the Fang because a) the Great Wolf and all the other Great Companies made shift to supposedly hunt down Magnus, and took all the ships (likely taking some of Greyloc's ships, but leaving the GC's attached armsmen home and instead taking the Great Wolf's kaerls in their stead) and b) the Aett was going to be hit by overwhelming force, and Greyloc decided that, aside from some hit-and-run commando work outside the perimeter, he was best suited defending the Fang from the Fang, instead of establishing a perimeter outside the fortress. At that point, every gun counted. The kaerls, however, you'll note, were not part of the raiding parties; they were strictly kept within the Fang, and tasked with bolstering and readying its defenses. 

 

This suggests that they are principally a defensive force, but a seasoned one, based off the descriptions of particular members we spent time with through the narrative. 

 

As for psykers within the ranks of the kaerls, I do not think they'd be permitted. Yes, the primitive tribes of Fenris have a shamanistic culture, and that is reflected in the Wolves themselves. However, particularly post-Prospero, but pretty much always from what we've seen in the HH novels, the Wolves are quite careful in who is permitted to practice such arts and how they're monitored. Given the degree of control a Librarian (and, I'm assuming a Rune Priest) is required to learn prior to being sanctioned to conduct psyker activities, I'd wager the only way the Wolves would have psykers within the Aettguard would be if they were psy-bonded--which would mean each of those psykers would be sent on a trip to Terra to get a portion of the Emperor's soul impressed on them, end up blinded (at least), and in general be a wandering warp-security threat waiting to happen. 

 

No, I don't see actual psykers among the Fang's auxiliary human forces. Too risky for a Legion/Chapter so adverse to maleficarum. 

 

I could possibly see certain "advisor" roles from the Guard dex being expressed in the kaerls, though, particularly in a base of operations and logistics vein. Those could work. But I do not see psyker battle squads or Primaris Psykers mucking about in the Fang. Ever. Too risky. 

 

My two cents. 

[Grimtooth]

Frosrclaw, i am not sure if I misread you but the rivens are assigned to the GC and all the other rivens left with their respective GC to Gangava. So the only mustered riven of kaerls at the Aett were those belonging to Greylocs great company.

 

In addition there are several other references in the book of how much battle experience the kaerls had with reference to offworld combat. It seems just too much action to be only defensible.

[frostclaw222]

Ramses, what I was trying to get across was that, since Greyloc was staying to guard the Aett and the Great Wolf was bringing the full remaining force to bear on the Sons, he likely took some of Greyloc's ships, and that means that Greyloc's auxiliary numbers may have been bolstered with some of his shipboard security troops, or that the Great Wolf may have left some of his own thralls as well. Just saying the numbers might be off a bit for a number of reasons.

 

The argument for the Aettguard/Riven/kaerls to have more of an offensive role can be made from the anecdotal/circumstantial references, but as we've yet to see them employed in that manner in any fluff outside of the Fang and aboard ship is telling.

 

Jury's still out in my opinion. I can see your point, and I'm not dismissing it. But until there's evidence one way or another, we're splitting lines of text and trying to justify or lay to rest the existence of Bigfoot. ;)