Making thousand sons/mark of Tzeentch work.

[Tenebris]

Yeah, I find any kind of Daemon of Tzeentch very beneficial for a Thousand Sons army. Not only via daemons we get some much needed anti-vehicle options (Screamers) and anti-horde options (Flamers), but we also get some of the most resilient troops options to cap objectives and provide much needed volume of fire (Horrors). I am quite fond of the Soul Grinder with a nice Divination Herald around to boost its firepower and precision, but also the Portalgyph is very fine indeed when you need some cheap scoring troops, for even two Horrors biting clinging to the ground behind some cover are a tough thing to kill.

 

All I all I always field my Thousand Sons as MSU, big squads simply do not cut it, be it with Divination or without it. While more MSU squads means more psychic powers, more Fearless units to kill model by model and more Force Weapons to rush into the melee. Sure it is more Victory Points for my adversary in KP games but usually it is worth the risk (truth be told also because I rarely field more than three TS MSU).

 

When comes to Sorcerers I find them much better as cheap and cheerful fellows. Mastery Level 3, Mark of Tzeentch and this is all. If they die or explode due to Perils I have not lost much, maybe I add Aura of Dark Glory when I have some spare points. 

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

An idea I have been thinking of trying as a second hq is a sorcerer in terminator armour, 3 levels, spell familiar and burning brand with either pure biomancy or 2 biomancy and a telepathy spell.
Whilst Ahriman is powerfull, he is also expensive and should really be the warlord of any force, which I have had good luck with him, as his multile shooting spells ability mitagates the penalty of the lore of change to an extent.
What are people taking for their second Hq's? Daemon princes are something I've always wanted to try but they just seem too expensive for what they do, needing at least over a two hundred points and the daemon of Tzeentch rule being of dubious use, again crippling him you want him to be a psyker.

Apostles and warpsmiths could be interesting with the scrolls, lords likewise.
A second sorcerer is  tempting as he doesn't need the lore of tzeentch so can actually be quite interesting as he can choose to use whichever lore he wants and is more likely to get a couple of useful spells.

[Naryn]

As a second HQ, I've found that Be'Lakor works really well for his points value.  He's essentially a Daemon Prince plus one - amazing against infantry and vehicles alike, high leadership, knows all six of the telepathy psychic powers by default and can use 3 (or potentially more) of them per turn; he's a beast.  To add insult to injury, he's also cheaper than the way I used to run my Black Mace prince, and much better at the kind of psychic messing around I enjoy as the Sons.  An invisible 18-man unit of Thousand Sons is a force to be reckoned with on the battlefield, even in melee.  I would highly recommend him.

[Tenebris]

I have to agree, Be'Lakor is a great support unit and potentially deadly when used well. On the note of the main HQ I usually field a cheap Sorcerer, max 100+ points. The reason is that first the MoT is a dire tax and the discipline is ahem... pathetic so I rather not bankroll it more than I need, and the second reason is that Thousand Sons being perhaps the most expensive chaos army pointwise we need to trim points everywhere we can. Sadly I am moving to Daemons of Tzeentch as main and only token Thousand Sons as ally. In my area 150 points of a lacklustre unit is a dire investment that can potentially screw you more than it is worth it, so it is mostly Cultists for me. 

 

In the end, until GW will shape up and make the Tzeentch faction at least fun to play if not completely a shot in the knee than maybe I will even have the honor to play my favorite astartes legion, but as it is now, the whole Thousand Sons and Rubic Marines are a big no no if I want to last past turn three. 

[Ethrion]

I have to agree, Be'Lakor is a great support unit and potentially deadly when used well. On the note of the main HQ I usually field a cheap Sorcerer, max 100+ points. The reason is that first the MoT is a dire tax and the discipline is ahem... pathetic so I rather not bankroll it more than I need, and the second reason is that Thousand Sons being perhaps the most expensive chaos army pointwise we need to trim points everywhere we can. Sadly I am moving to Daemons of Tzeentch as main and only token Thousand Sons as ally. In my area 150 points of a lacklustre unit is a dire investment that can potentially screw you more than it is worth it, so it is mostly Cultists for me. 

 

In the end, until GW will shape up and make the Tzeentch faction at least fun to play if not completely a shot in the knee than maybe I will even have the honor to play my favorite astartes legion, but as it is now, the whole Thousand Sons and Rubic Marines are a big no no if I want to last past turn three. 

I'm really not having a go but I have to respectively disagree mate.

 

MoT tax, aspiring sorcerer tax and rubric cost is expensive but if you look at what they have they're not so bad. I find that TS are fun to play and can be pretty powerful. A unit that has a permanent 4++, AP3 bolters and fearless isn't something to be sniffed at. To make them work you need them mobile and getting into dangerous areas quickly, you can do this best by infiltrating them. Now if you really don't like Ahriman (though with biomancy he is pretty epic) you can get the same infiltrate trait from Huron who is much cheaper and much better in close combat.

 

MSU of TS force you do pay more aspiring sorcerer tax but allow you potentially infiltrate 3 units if you roll well. On the other hand 1 super unit will always be guaranteed to infiltrate even if you roll badly. It depends on how sure you want to be of your battle tactics and not leave anything up to chance. Regardless, being sneaky and infiltrating or outflanking rubrics is fun to play.

 

Support for the core rubrics can really be anything you like - obliterators and heldrakes are an obvious choice but you can equally go with rhino rushing havocs with melta guns, raptors or bikers with melta guns, talons for close combat support, a unit of combi-weapon toting terminators, maulerfiends etc. They're all pretty strong options and quite threatening.

 

Add in the CS supplement and you can build another type of sorcerer now or you can make a unit of TS that have succumbed to the flesh change in the new possessed - and I have to say after using them a few times, they are awesome.

 

So either way I've got to say, it is fun to play thousand sons lists and it's not a case of losing by turn 3 really.

 

p.s. I'm not blowing my own trumpet but I took Thousand Sons to my local tournament and came 2nd, would have come first had it not been for a massive tactical error. This was all against, guard, orks, tau, marines, daemons and eldar...so TS weren't a pushover :)

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Any battlereports from that? Or the list you used :P
I admit the main thing holding me back from using Ahriman is the fact I quite like my own sorcerer model, though taking Ahriman as well would allow him to go for 3 Biomancy/2bio and one telepathy (or even all telepathy).
On the large verses small squads, I've had success with both, and have been thinking about possibly having a list where my troops consists of one of each and a cultist/allied guard squad.
I'm still not sure to give terminators the mark of Tzeentch or not, as whilst it can be useful, kelly struck again and it made it quite expensive, and using the points on either vets or a banner of vengeance may be better.

[Xenith]

I have found the MoT on terminators to be very useful indeed, going from 4/6 die to 3/6 die from Plasma has been good for me, especially when combined with endurance to protect from small arms fire.

 

I would go with larger squads, though, small 5 man ones are too easily whittled down, but 9 man ones with combis and power axes and a chainfist are something your opponent has to deal with, even when footslogging.

 

They are also a good nest for Ahriman/ your sorcerer, especially if he has an AP2 power or so, or if you went with biomancy for the blessings/maledictions, which dont affect what unit the squad can shoot at - puppet mastering means the terms have to shoot at whatever you puppet mastered, whch isnt great.

[Ethrion]

Any battlereports from that? Or the list you used

I admit the main thing holding me back from using Ahriman is the fact I quite like my own sorcerer model, though taking Ahriman as well would allow him to go for 3 Biomancy/2bio and one telepathy (or even all telepathy).

On the large verses small squads, I've had success with both, and have been thinking about possibly having a list where my troops consists of one of each and a cultist/allied guard squad.

I'm still not sure to give terminators the mark of Tzeentch or not, as whilst it can be useful, kelly struck again and it made it quite expensive, and using the points on either vets or a banner of vengeance may be better.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282466-thousand-sons-in-a-tournament-environment-4-1/

That was my brief overview of what happened. No in depth battle reports I'm afraid, plus now it's been a while I can't remember exactly what went down haha!

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Looks good, the fact you won against all but the most broken army in 40k is fairly good. I've a game against sm player at darksphere later, apparently his list is bike heavy, with a contemptor mortis, sicarian and 2 fliers (yay..) the ist I'm going to try is this:
Ahriman
Chaos terminator squad Ptah with 2 extra, 4 combi meltas and veterans of the long war (2 mace, 3 axe)

Thousand sons squad Belshazzar 5 extra rubrics and Rhino
Thousand son Squad Sensowet with 6 extra rubrics
Chaos Predator with lascannon sponsons, twinlinked lascannons

Chaos predator with lascannon sponsons and twinlinked lascannons

3 Obliterators
1500pts
The idea is to have Ahriman in the larger squad and infiltrate them, the terminators and obliterators in in order to try and take out the sicaran and mortis.
If I had the models I'd be tempted to drop one of the rubric squads for some cultis and a 10 man strong raptor unit with melta guns and power maul, or maybe a helldrake or more terminators and some extra rubrics. 

[Excessus]

I'd take a heldrake, definitely!

[Ethrion]

Yeah you'll need a heldrake to hit the bikers and also to vector strike the enemy's fliers. Either that or take some stronghold assault anti-air defense. Vengeance batteries with quad icarus lascannons are good.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

the grav guns.... oh sweet Prospero the grav guns!
So he had no fliers, instead it was khan,relic contemptor mortis and sicarian all the bikes with grav he could fit bar one squad with melta, an allied mantis warriors librarian using divintation and 5 man scout squad, Ahriman and the terminators got wiped turn one after he stole the initiative (Id got breath, enfeeble, endurance and puppet master) and the librarian and 2 biker units couble taped their gravs and the contemptor and sicarian joined in, then had the rest of his bikes (15/20 odd) all come in next tern (he got Skryers gaze and the guide one), the rhino tsons squad died next turn, the preds then, sorcerer killed a biker serg and got stubbon, then challenged Khârn and died.
I'm really thinking of converting a colonial vyper model to a helldrake now... or maybe gtting allied guard

[Ethrion]

Yikes, that sounds brutal! Next time try testing the list I used, see if that does any better. (Make sure Ahriman is attached to the cultists to make them fearless, and only infiltrate/outflank if it tactically makes sense.)

[Excessus]

RPR, I highly reccomend that you take a look at the daemon codex as well as the heldrake. Even when limiting yourself to only Tzeentch units it's quite a stable addition to an army! Screamers man, screamers...good against tanks and horde, quick and nasty, lovely things! Horrors, with a herald as allied HQ they can have S6 shots with prescience and the herald can add to it as well!

Aaaah, the heldrake, man do I wish I always played with it (but I feel it's unfair to field against newer/inexperienced players). S7, AP3 vectorstrikes (that ignores cover) and the baleflamer are both banes of a bike army, or PA army, or an army with vehicles and horde, or MCs and horde...or anything! It's such a universally good unit, it's horrifying!

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

The thing is I am trying to get the chaos codex to actually work, I don't feel I should reward GW for doing such a slipshop codex. That said the idea of a lord of change or allied russes is tempting, though the problem with daemon allies is Tzeentch units give the enemy feel no pain (really? Whoever thought of that rule... I want whatever they were smoking to think that is fun)

[Excessus]

Well, it's only one thing that gives FnP, and that's the shooting attacks (and not even all the time)...though, in my experience S6 4d6+2d6(or 3d6) shots with reroll to hit can glance av12 to death and pen av10-11 to death, and vehicles don't get FnP. Also, I tend to use it on units that are small enough to die off from the mass of attacks, or low T horde that will fail their toughness test and get extra wounds in 50% of the times. Also, though they'd get FnP 6+ in the other 50%, S6 vs T3 completely negates that!

 

Screamers are fast, durable creatures with a nice answer to both horde, msu and vehicles. Their melta-attack in CC is really nice, and their mini-vectrostrikes replacement for shooting are good for causing wounds on both marine and guardsman alike!

 

I prefer having a herald as a HQ because it's cheap (our primary detachment is full of expensive stuff unfortunately, haha) and makes the horrors much better, but the LoC is a crazy beast as well! Flickering fire in the backside of fliers is fun, where the 2-3d6 S5 shots that hits on 2+ can easily grab enough glances/pens to bring it down! (and that's after vector striking something) In combat he will blow up characters with his staff and is as durable as a BT while dishing out a respectful amount of damage!

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Will think about it, depends if I see a good deal on the cdex. Sticking with the chaos codex, I'm thinking this for a post exam rematch
Zarathustra Suicune, lvl 3 sorcerer with force axe, sigil, spell familiar, vets 155pts (2 biomancy, one telepathy)

Ashurnasirpal Entei, lvl 3 sorcerer with spell familiar, force staff and mark of tzzentch 140pts (2 Biomancy, 1 tzeentch)
Thousand son squad Belshazzar with 5 extr rubrics
Thousand son squad Sensowet with 5 extra rubrics
Hell drake
Obliterator cult 3 210pts

predator with tri las 140pts
predator with tri las 140pts
The preds are mainly there to take out the contemptor and sicarian, Ahriman is good but not that good, and this way if I do lose a squad and sorcerer turn one, thats not all my buffs gone, cultists I'm not sure as they could be murdered by just one biker squad on it's own, where as the rubrics can last a fair bit, hopefully with both squads having endure or enfeebling their opponents.
Maybe fitting in a daemon prince somewhere? main problem is either the grav guns or the sicarian or assault cannon contemptor will just fry it if it can't take them out early/get into combat.

[EricBasser]

Skimmed through the post at work, but what about Crimson Slaughter for Divination? Might be nice rerolling to hits or ignore cover on 1k Sons.

 

I'm still ttrying to figure out a Tzeentch list that uses one CSM codex.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I must admit that whilst I think at the core supplements are a good idea, at the same price as the actual full codecci it just doesn't sell to me, if they were half the price or even £20 I would have got the iyanden and one of the chaos ones, but as it is the price sisaudes me.

[Ethrion]

While the CS codex is really good at fixing possessed and giving a whole new set of relics and traits it isn't 100% necessary when it comes to Thousand Sons lists. You can totally do without it really. (It is cool though!)

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I'll think about it, I'll have a look at a copy next time I am in darksphere.
How does everyone think the above list will fare against him?
I know I'm likely to struggle, but I think the above could do well, as long as I try to have the rubrics between the grav weapons and the obliterators :P

[Excessus]

Personally I would feel uncomfortable playing a list with so little assault-y elements in it...

 

Most other armies will outshoot a chaos army no matter what you take, but what we do better is around 12" shooting and close combat. I tend to always grab spawns nowadays, they bring so much flexibility to a list it's crazy, I also usually bring cultists for distractions, roadbumps, challenge cheerleader squads (every body counts when you have to get 5 extras to cheer for the lord! hehe), scoring units...and many many other reasons.

 

What I'd take at 1500p? Sorry for involving Codex: Chaos Daemons again but:

 

Ahriman

9x TS

20x Cultists

Heldrake

5x Spawn, MoN

3x Oblits, MoN

Herald of Tzeentch, exalted locus, mastery lvl 3

10 horrors

6 screamers

 

1500p on the spot, three scoring units, shooty stuff as well as melee stuff. Grav doesn't bother spawns or screamers, and they'll be up close and personal quickly. Against sicarian both spawns and screamers work good, and against the contemptor screamers work good otherwise you have cultists to tie him up with in melee...and if you get iron arm on Ahriman, that's S7-9 on initiative 5, he can deal with the dread while giving fearless to his extrawounds...I mean cultists... ;) Otherwise you always have meltas and lascannons from the oblits...

 

That would be my idea for it though...

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

... Mark of Nurgle on a Tzeentch forum? :P
My main problem with the cultists is that they would not really be worth it, that unit wouldn't last long, hammer of wrath attakcs alone would take it down to half strength and then they would be finished by the unit's attacks.
I see where your coming from on the lack of close combat, but I tend to include terminators for that but against the sheer amount of grav (why they didn't give chaos some whole new weapon type I don't know, or price it so cheaply)means they die quickly, I guess I could have them and hide them behind rubrics, but bikes speed will mean it would be difficult.
Must admit I've lost faith in Ahriman, in the las few games I've had with him he's not done well, losing wounds and dying when a cheaper regular sorcerer would have survived (failed psychic tests, rolling a 3+ for his invun save) and would rather use the saved 60pts towards getting another level three sorcerer.
Spawn look good, may grab a box of them to try them out.

[EricBasser]

If running daemons as allies, I would try and shave points for Exalted Gift (Portalglyph) for the Herald. Extra scoring units can help with the expensive Thousand Sons.

 

I'm in the same boat with Ahriman. Love the fluff, warlord trait, and the 3 witchfires a turn. Just wish he had a way to reroll his psychic tests.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

If running daemons as allies, I would try and shave points for Exalted Gift (Portalglyph) for the Herald. Extra scoring units can help with the expensive Thousand Sons.

 

I'm in the same boat with Ahriman. Love the fluff, warlord trait, and the 3 witchfires a turn. Just wish he had a way to reroll his psychic tests.

I'm personally hoping they FAQ him to have spell familiar and corruption, then at least you wouldn't have the situation where regular sorcerers are more relaible then him.