Shotguns or CC Weapons on Assault scouts

[Azash]

Looking at using a full 10 man scout squad to infiltrate hopefully out of line of site then move in and assault. The idea being to tie up an opponents key unit. Stuff like a broadsides etc.

 

Right now I'm thinking power maul or power Axe plus vet sarg upgrade for the extra leadership.

 

The real question is the rest of the squad...shotguns or cc weapon.

 

Shotgun gets me more kills before I go in which reduces potential casualtiesbfrom overwatch. However I have less cc attacks and I'm shooting at be 3.

 

CC weapon means more attacks but less effective shooting prior to the charge. WS 3 is a lot less of a penalty the BS 3.

 

However back in 5th the math hammer for 5 scouts favored shotguns against meq.

 

Thoughts suggestions?

[Heirophant]

Unless you really, really want to do a 10 man Scout squad, I recommend against it.  Scout squad are great harassment or objective camping units.  For CC Scouts, take a Land Speeder Storm with a Melta and 5 CC Scouts with a Serg with Combi-weapon.  But if you want a 10 man squad, have Shotguns to shoot and then assault (40 Strength 4 attacks per turn is not bad).

[Axagoras]

scouts dont get 4 attacks a model, with a shotgun they have 2 on the charge. In the current meta where everything is ultra shooty and glassy in CC CCW might be better

[MagicMan]

I find shotguns more versatile, you don't always end up in a position where you want to charge.

 

But, bolt pistols are less likely to shoot you out of charge range (by killing alot of the closer models) than shotguns, and as you said, WS3 is less of a disadvantage than BS3.

[DarkGuard]

In a 10 man Scout unit go with both. Do about 5 shotguns, for that pre combat shooting, and then 4 CCWs, plus upgrade on Sergeant. Send the shotguns in first so that they die first, and therefore you are left with guys who are better in combat in the later rounds.

 

Gives the squad good flexibility.

[WarriorFish]

Agreed, if you're taking that many Scouts it's a good opportunity to go half and half. It also lends itself to combat squading nicely. Generally I find BP/CCW more useful but that doesn't mean Shotguns are bad, as it depends on what you want them to do. Plus the Shotgun models look great :)

[Bannus]

scouts dont get 4 attacks a model, with a shotgun they have 2 on the charge. In the current meta where everything is ultra shooty and glassy in CC CCW might be better

 

I think he realizes that:

 

Shooting phase - 2 Str4 attacks from shotguns/Scout

Assault phase - 2 Str4 attacks in close combat/Scout

 

2+2=4 Str4 attackes/Scout x 10 Scouts = 40 Str4 attacks.

 

I believe this was the intent of his post.  ;)

[Cornelias]

If your going 10 man i'd always include a heavy bolter, if they end up camping an objective after pushing something off it they can take pop shots at things from range and you've always the option of snap firing now aswell.

[UnkyHamHam]

I tend to run 2 scout squads in Storms w/ 3x shotguns, 1x CCW/BP, Sarge w/ Meltabomb and Combi-Flamer.  I like the theory of shooting up a target with shotguns before assaults, but i keep the one CCW scout for tossing grenades before assaults.  Since he isn't shooting a gun, i set him up for that extra attack.  These squads always fair pretty well.

[UltraTacSgt]

Bolters are a surprisingly decent underdog as far as Scout armaments go.

 

My buddy is a Scout-a-holic and he fields tons of the guys and many with bolters. They can be very handy in cover or outflanking and forcing you to shoot at Scouts instead of other things.

 

I have been experimenting with a 4 x Bolter, 1 x HB Scout squad for the very purpose you stated and they have done more damage than I thought they would.

 

If you are building an outflank/infiltrate Scout squad (on foot) you might consider a 5x5 setup w/ one squad set for CC and the other for range w/ bolters and maybe HB. You will probably find plenty of situations where staying in cover and shooting it out is a better and more effective choice than bum-rushing something.

 

Not perfect, but a thought.

[Azash]

Thank you all for your replies I appreciate the input. Its given me a couple of ideas to try out on the table. Any excuse to play with the toy soldiers and throw the dice around :)

 

@ DarkGuard and UltraTacSgt

I especially like your ideas of a "5 and 5" squad with a mix of close combat and ranged capability. I hadn't thought of that and the ability to combat squad into specialist squads if the circumstances warrant is a nice bit of flexibility.

[Bannus]

I haven't built my Scouts yet, but I'm thinking of arming them with shotguns simply because the weapons are unique to them. If I need bolters, I take Tactical Marines, if I need BP&CCW, then Assault Marines.

 

So if I want to arm them with their signature weapons: shotguns and sniper rifles, hmmm.......

 

I wonder how that would work - not well I would guess!  :P

[Jolemai]

As a rule, I'm usually a fan of one assault weapon/upgrade per 4-5 guys. However, I'm beginning to use the half and half approach to everything from Death Company to curry (currently living in Wales, we like half rice/half chips with it).

[WarriorFish]

That's a good point bannus, but you could always go 50-50 and combat squad them! :P I have been planning to get some more Scouts for a while now and contemplating their weaponry but I have enough to be getting on with for the moment.

[Cornelias]

What does everyone think about a plasma pistol instead of power weapon etc on the sergent? I always struggle with what power weapon to give him, the plasma would give him a decent punch before he gets into CC.

[MagicMan]

I'd rather give him a Power-maul, or maybe even a fist.

 

Usually i'd go for a sword, but with Scouts its all about picking on weaker units or getting a sneaky charge against a vehicle that wasn't expecting it. The maul/fist works well here, massively upping your chances of wasting the vehicle.

[WarriorFish]

Agreed, though 6th's challenge mechanics have made the PF less useful on a Scout Sergeant it's still great at bashing vehicles in which is how I like to use Scouts. Especially LSS ones, but the Maul is definitely a good alternative that should do the same job but with more flexibility.

[AtlasDM]

I did a little bit of mathhammer using test groups of 10 scouts with shotguns, 10 with bolt pistols and ccws, and a 5+5 mix. The targets were marines, tau fire warriors, and guardsmen. I simulated a firing phase followed by a charge not accounting for units lost to enemy overwatch. Here's what I found based off the math (actual results may vary lol).

Against targets with armor saves of 5+ or worse both guns perform about the same in terms of unsaved wounds; against 4+ or better the shotgun's extra shot makes it a better choice.

In close combat however, the bolt pistol/ccw group far outperforms the shotgun scouts.

The mixed units held a middle ground and performed worse than the pistol group but better than the shotgun group.

My advice would be to use shotguns when you expect enemies with 4+ armor or better and otherwise stick to bolt pistols or combined squads.

[Kaedes Nex]

Is it worth mentioning that sometimes a good salvo from shotguns will cause you to fail your charge range? Since you do get more shots and firepower with shotguns, and you're definitely going to want to charge if you're firing shotguns or bolt pistols.

 

To me this makes bolt pistols the go-to option if you're not taking snipers or bolters.

[AtlasDM]

Is it worth mentioning that sometimes a good salvo from shotguns will cause you to fail your charge range? Since you do get more shots and firepower with shotguns, and you're definitely going to want to charge if you're firing shotguns or bolt pistols.

 

To me this makes bolt pistols the go-to option if you're not taking snipers or bolters.

 

Good point. I honestly am kind of curious when one would even really want a shotgun scout squad on the board. Unless you just think they look cool there's no good reason to take them that I can think of.

[Azash]

As another poster pointed out shotguns are better against 4+ sv or better. Giving scouts the ability to take out more models in shooting gives them a chance against opponents they wouldn't normally have.

 

One thought I had about the shotgUN's, you don't have to shoot with all the models in the shooting phase. So if shotguns will push the squad outside of assault range with 20 shots maybe you only fire 10 shots.

 

I already have 10 scouts with cc weapons I think I'm going with 10 shotguns. I can go a full 10 of either or two squads of 5\5.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Can you shoot yourself out of charge range?  Sure.  But you can also shoot the enemy down to the point where they're unlikely to get any Overwatch kills, and that is especially important with Eldar and Tau since put out a ridiculous number of shots on Overwatch and both have means to ameloriate the snap-fire hangup of Overwatch.

[WarriorFish]

Agreed, better to have the option than not. There's random charge distances to consider too, that's more likely to prevent your assault in most situations.

[appiah4]

Shotguns, no contest.  All this CCW vs Shotgun mathhammer is pointless because if you don't shoot them up first, you will never make it into melee with as many units.  Overwatch can be a bitch and with 4+ saves you really don't want to test your luck against even guardsmen.  Kill them good and fast before they kill you.  Then stomp on their heads.

[BassWave]

Appiah has a point. Atlas, not calculating overwatch in your math hammer is definitely going to skew the results in favor of cc scouts. If you didn't kill much in your shooting phase, that means there are more enemies to shoot you in over watch.